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Hi all,
I much prefer the idea of having a discussion rather than a debate…it just has more of a spirit of seeking truth instead of seeking a winner.I invite BD, if interested, to continue our discussion here (from this thread: ( https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=4322 ) about the sonship and single/dual nature of Christ, and what that means, or whatever rabbit trail that comes from there. Please let’s use the Bible (not the qur’an) for reference and also the church fathers or other Christian scholarly Biblical commentaries when helpful to clarify.
This discussion is closed to others so that it can be easier to follow, thanks for understanding.
BD,
You asked me this:Quote The term God the Father is a Metaphor if it isn't then HE is the literal Father of all. This is why in Islam the usage of such language has been cleansed God is Unique there is none like HIM. HE is not begotten nor does HE Beget. Language ca be used very poetically to pint out certain things we should not ignore the reality of analogies and metaphors.
This is why you will only consider Jesus a literal son after the bible has God calling people and angels sons, hundreds and even thousands of years before Jesus appeared.
Jesus is the only 'like begets like' type of son with the same original nature. All others called son are not like the Father in nature in their original state.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 10 2012,16:04) BD,
You asked me this:Quote The term God the Father is a Metaphor if it isn't then HE is the literal Father of all. This is why in Islam the usage of such language has been cleansed God is Unique there is none like HIM. HE is not begotten nor does HE Beget. Language ca be used very poetically to pint out certain things we should not ignore the reality of analogies and metaphors.
This is why you will only consider Jesus a literal son after the bible has God calling people and angels sons, hundreds and even thousands of years before Jesus appeared.
Jesus is the only 'like begets like' type of son with the same original nature. All others called son are not like the Father in nature in their original state.
Hi KathiIf we cannot allow the Quran in the conversation we can hardly add other sources of your own preference so before we continue we have to come to agreement.
We can either use the Bible ONLY or we can be allowed to use external sources, fair enough?
Quote Now you said Jesus is the only “like begets like” type of son with the same original nature If this is true how can Jesus have a BEGOTTEN NATURE and GOD not have that same nature?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 10 2012,16:04) BD,
You asked me this:Quote The term God the Father is a Metaphor if it isn't then HE is the literal Father of all. This is why in Islam the usage of such language has been cleansed God is Unique there is none like HIM. HE is not begotten nor does HE Beget. Language ca be used very poetically to pint out certain things we should not ignore the reality of analogies and metaphors.
This is why you will only consider Jesus a literal son after the bible has God calling people and angels sons, hundreds and even thousands of years before Jesus appeared.
Jesus is the only 'like begets like' type of son with the same original nature. All others called son are not like the Father in nature in their original state.
Hi KathiKeep in mind that I love Jesus greatly and I consider myself arguing on his behalf that he would not ascribe himself what you have ascribed to him.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”God gave MANKIND His Likeness ut in those early chapters Adam is not called “Son” and yet in the NT we find the statement
Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.So here we see that by the NT Adam is recognized as the son of God and he was the one who was made in the image and likeness of God according to scripture. How do you respond to this.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 10 2012,16:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 10 2012,16:04) BD,
You asked me this:Quote The term God the Father is a Metaphor if it isn't then HE is the literal Father of all. This is why in Islam the usage of such language has been cleansed God is Unique there is none like HIM. HE is not begotten nor does HE Beget. Language ca be used very poetically to pint out certain things we should not ignore the reality of analogies and metaphors.
This is why you will only consider Jesus a literal son after the bible has God calling people and angels sons, hundreds and even thousands of years before Jesus appeared.
Jesus is the only 'like begets like' type of son with the same original nature. All others called son are not like the Father in nature in their original state.
Hi KathiIf we cannot allow the Quran in the conversation we can hardly add other sources of your own preference so before we continue we have to come to agreement.
We can either use the Bible ONLY or we can be allowed to use external sources, fair enough?
Quote Now you said Jesus is the only “like begets like” type of son with the same original nature If this is true how can Jesus have a BEGOTTEN NATURE and GOD not have that same nature?
BD,
You can use whatever reference you want to support your Biblical understanding of what we are discussing. This is a Biblical discussion and not a discussion about supporting references but there are times when one of us may make a claim or lack understanding where outside references can help clear something up.This is not a Quran discussion but if the Quran or other references gives support and/or clarity to your point about your Biblical understanding then you may use it. OK?
Likewise other references may be used to give support and/or bring clarity to my Biblical understanding.
From what you say, this is agreeable to your option that you give:
“…we can be allowed to use external sources, fair enough?.”So, I will assume that we are in agreement here unless you say otherwise in your next few posts.
God bless!
BD,
You asked:Quote If this is true how can Jesus have a BEGOTTEN NATURE and GOD not have that same nature? Jesus already had His nature before He was begotten. Even men have their nature determined before they are begotten/born. Jesus existed before the ages with divine nature before He was begotten from the Father.
BD,
Quote Keep in mind that I love Jesus greatly and I consider myself arguing on his behalf that he would not ascribe himself what you have ascribed to him. I will keep that in mind, and so do I. He is who He is and if either or both of us deny who He is then one or both of us should want to know who He really is more than we want to hold onto imperfect understanding. Wouldn't you agree?
Quote Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”Who is the 'us' here?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2012,10:25) BD,
You asked:Quote If this is true how can Jesus have a BEGOTTEN NATURE and GOD not have that same nature? Jesus already had His nature before He was begotten. Even men have their nature determined before they are begotten/born. Jesus existed before the ages with divine nature before He was begotten from the Father.
So you agree that he was not eternally begotten?Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2012,10:32) BD, Quote Keep in mind that I love Jesus greatly and I consider myself arguing on his behalf that he would not ascribe himself what you have ascribed to him. I will keep that in mind, and so do I. He is who He is and if either or both of us deny who He is then one or both of us should want to know who He really is more than we want to hold onto imperfect understanding. Wouldn't you agree?
Quote Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”Who is the 'us' here?
Okay well did Jesus directly say he was God and if he didn't why not? He denied that he was calling himself “god”John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Clearly he was denying there charge against him.
Quote Who is the 'us' here? God appeared to be speaking to the Heavenly hosts as is noted elsewhere in the Bible
1 Kings 22:19-23
King James Version (KJV)
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Now notice the scripture has God talking to the Heavenly host and then after the decision is made God says HE did the act Himself.
Just like in Genesis when it continues:
Genesis 5:1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;So based upon the scripturesGod will talk to the Heavenly host then by Command execute a matter.
There is no indication in any of the scriptures that the “us” would be a particular being such as Jesus.
You have to understand the whole nature of your argument is based upon the ambiguity that you are holding on to if what you were discussing something that was very clear such as Jesus said “I am God and I came down here in the flesh to die for your sins” we would not be having this discussion so out of hundreds or thousands ofquotes from Jesus in the NT not ONE single affirmative statement about being God you actually have to be taught that he is even hinting at it but no objective reader can come away with that conclusion. The best you can argue is he said he was the son of God and from there we can see if that claim means what you think it means.
BD,
Quote God gave MANKIND His Likeness ut in those early chapters Adam is not called “Son” and yet in the NT we find the statement Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.So here we see that by the NT Adam is recognized as the son of God and he was the one who was made in the image and likeness of God according to scripture. How do you respond to this.
The word 'son' is not in the Greek manuscripts from the three that I looked at regarding Luke 3:38 (Nestlé-Aland 26 1894 Textus Receptus 1991 Byzantine
). All three just say “the of Enos, the of Seth, the of Adam, the of God.” Never the less, I am not debating that man in general, not just the first man, are 'sons' of God in a creator/creation relationship sense but not as a father/son relationship. See the KJV on the Luke passage and see that all the words 'son' are in italics…they are supplied by the translator.http://kingjbible.com/luke/3.htm
Also, being made in the image of God is not the same thing as being made in the nature of God. Image has different meanings. How is man different than animals? Animals are not made in the image of God. It perhaps has to do with having a spiritual element and/or a reasoning mind and higher intelligence. I'm not aware that we are told directly what 'image' means in that context.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 10 2012,18:56) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2012,10:25) BD,
You asked:Quote If this is true how can Jesus have a BEGOTTEN NATURE and GOD not have that same nature? Jesus already had His nature before He was begotten. Even men have their nature determined before they are begotten/born. Jesus existed before the ages with divine nature before He was begotten from the Father.
So you agree that he was not eternally begotten?
BD,
Eternally begotten, if that means that He was begotten during eternity, then I agree. Some have understood that as He is eternally being begotten from the Father which I do not think that is what is meant by the later church fathers who coined the phrase.In the original Nicene Creed, the phrase is 'begotten before the ages' and in a more contemporary Nicene Creed, the phrase is 'eternally begotten.'
It cannot mean that He is 'continually being begotten' because of the tense of the verb. The verb 'begotten' is written in the 'perfect indicative active' which means that the action happened at a point in time and the affects of that continue.
In other words, He was begotten at a certain point and remains begotten. This is how I understand the grammar anyway.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 10 2012,19:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2012,10:32) BD, Quote Keep in mind that I love Jesus greatly and I consider myself arguing on his behalf that he would not ascribe himself what you have ascribed to him. I will keep that in mind, and so do I. He is who He is and if either or both of us deny who He is then one or both of us should want to know who He really is more than we want to hold onto imperfect understanding. Wouldn't you agree?
Quote Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”Who is the 'us' here?
Okay well did Jesus directly say he was God and if he didn't why not? He denied that he was calling himself “god”John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Clearly he was denying there charge against him.
Quote Who is the 'us' here? God appeared to be speaking to the Heavenly hosts as is noted elsewhere in the Bible
1 Kings 22:19-23
King James Version (KJV)
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Now notice the scripture has God talking to the Heavenly host and then after the decision is made God says HE did the act Himself.
Just like in Genesis when it continues:
Genesis 5:1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;So based upon the scripturesGod will talk to the Heavenly host then by Command execute a matter.
There is no indication in any of the scriptures that the “us” would be a particular being such as Jesus.
You have to understand the whole nature of your argument is based upon the ambiguity that you are holding on to if what you were discussing something that was very clear such as Jesus said “I am God and I came down here in the flesh to die for your sins” we would not be having this discussion so out of hundreds or thousands ofquotes from Jesus in the NT not ONE single affirmative statement about being God you actually have to be taught that he is even hinting at it but no objective reader can come away with that conclusion. The best you can argue is he said he was the son of God and from there we can see if that claim means what you think it means.
Bo,
I thought we discussed John 10 before. Oh well, It is clear that the Pharisees were accusing Jesus of blasphemy because He said that He was the Son of God. I get the impression that Jesus was pointing out that a certain group of men were called gods yet they died as men do. How much more would the actual Son of God be called God if even a group of men were called gods. Being called God would be much more appropriate for the Son of God than the group of men called gods.So, I disagree with your conclusion. Jesus was denying that He was blaspheming God because He actually deserved that title being God the Father's literal son.
If a Jew claimed to be the literal son of God and thus, the same type of being as the Father, yet he was not the same type of being as the Father, then that would be blasphemy.
Quote God appeared to be speaking to the Heavenly hosts as is noted elsewhere in the Bible The Heavenly hosts were not credited with creation anywhere in the Bible but Jesus is, see these three passages:
John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Col 1:13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Heb 1: 1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Clearly, Bo, the Son is who is meant as one of the 'us.' The heavenly hosts were there at the foundation of the earth but that happened on day three when the seas were given their boundaries.
Bo,
Quote Okay well did Jesus directly say he was God and if he didn't why not? Well, He calls Himself the 'first and the last' which is declaring divinity.
Rev 1:17 I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Isaiah 44:6″Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2012,12:37) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 10 2012,19:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2012,10:32) BD, Quote Keep in mind that I love Jesus greatly and I consider myself arguing on his behalf that he would not ascribe himself what you have ascribed to him. I will keep that in mind, and so do I. He is who He is and if either or both of us deny who He is then one or both of us should want to know who He really is more than we want to hold onto imperfect understanding. Wouldn't you agree?
Quote Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”Who is the 'us' here?
Okay well did Jesus directly say he was God and if he didn't why not? He denied that he was calling himself “god”John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Clearly he was denying there charge against him.
Quote Who is the 'us' here? God appeared to be speaking to the Heavenly hosts as is noted elsewhere in the Bible
1 Kings 22:19-23
King James Version (KJV)
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Now notice the scripture has God talking to the Heavenly host and then after the decision is made God says HE did the act Himself.
Just like in Genesis when it continues:
Genesis 5:1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;So based upon the scripturesGod will talk to the Heavenly host then by Command execute a matter.
There is no indication in any of the scriptures that the “us” would be a particular being such as Jesus.
You have to understand the whole nature of your argument is based upon the ambiguity that you are holding on to if what you were discussing something that was very clear such as Jesus said “I am God and I came down here in the flesh to die for your sins” we would not be having this discussion so out of hundreds or thousands ofquotes from Jesus in the NT not ONE single affirmative statement about being God you actually have to be taught that he is even hinting at it but no objective reader can come away with that conclusion. The best you can argue is he said he was the son of God and from there we can see if that claim means what you think it means.
Bo,
I thought we discussed John 10 before. Oh well, It is clear that the Pharisees were accusing Jesus of blasphemy because He said that He was the Son of God. I get the impression that Jesus was pointing out that a certain group of men were called gods yet they died as men do. How much more would the actual Son of God be called God if even a group of men were called gods. Being called God would be much more appropriate for the Son of God than the group of men called gods.So, I disagree with your conclusion. Jesus was denying that He was blaspheming God because He actually deserved that title being God the Father's literal son.
If a Jew claimed to be the literal son of God and thus, the same type of being as the Father, yet he was not the same type of being as the Father, then that would be blasphemy.
Quote God appeared to be speaking to the Heavenly hosts as is noted elsewhere in the Bible The Heavenly hosts were not credited with creation anywhere in the Bible but Jesus is, see these three passages:
John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Col 1:13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Heb 1: 1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Clearly, Bo, the Son is who is meant as one of the 'us.' The heavenly hosts were there at the foundation of the earth but that happened on day three when the seas were given their boundaries.
Once again as I said before this is all abiguity the scripture is not saying that Jesus was always the word of God it says that the Word of God became flesh the Quran agrees that Jesus is a Word from God just as God said:Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.God created Jesus by His Word not that Jesus was that word. esus was the Word that became flesh.
Also in Genesis there is
no mention of creating the Heavenly host therefore it i logical to believe that the Creation of everything else was secondary to what God had already created such as Angels so Genesis is our story of creation not the entire story of all creation because even in genesis there was already some type of existence:Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.Bo,
Read this and tell me if the 'Word' as per the Jewish understanding is, in some contexts, a presence of some sort or just always a spoken/written word.Quote Gen 3:8
8They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the gardenSame verse paraphrased according to Jewish understanding:
And they heard the voice of the Word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening of the day;[21] and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
Quote
Gen 3:10
10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”Same verse paraphrased according to Jewish understanding:
And he said, The voice of Thy Word heard I in the garden, and I was afraid, because I (was) naked, and I would hide.
Quote
Gen 6:6-7
6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”Same verse paraphrased according to Jewish understanding:
And it repented the Lord in His Word that He had made men upon the earth. And He said, (in His Word,)[34] that He would break their strength according to His pleasure. And the Lord said, Man whom I have made will I blot out[35] I from the face of the earth; from man to the beast, to the reptile, and to the fowls of heaven; because it repenteth Me in My Word that I have made them.
Quote Gen 9:8-17
8Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, 9“Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; 10and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth. 11“I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.” 12God said, “This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations; 13I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. 14“It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud, 15and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16“When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.” 17And God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth.”And the Lord spake to Noach, and to his sons with him, saying, And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you and with your children after you, and with every living thing which is with you, of fowl, of cattle, and of every beast of the field that is with you, of all going forth from the ark of every animal of the earth. And I will establish My covenant with you, and all flesh shall not again be consumed by the waters of a deluge, nor shall there be again a deluge to destroy the earth. And the Lord said, This is the sign of the covenant which I appoint (give) between My Word, and between you, and between every living soul that is with you unto perpetual generations. I have set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of the covenant between My Word and between the earth. And it shall be that when clouding I becloud the earth, the bow shall be seen in the cloud ,and I will remember the covenant which is between My Word, and between You, and between every living soul of all flesh; and there shall not be again the waters of a deluge to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud, and I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between the Word of the Lord and between every living soul of all flesh that is upon the earth. And the Lord said, This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between My Word and between all flesh which is upon the earth.
For more info, go here:
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,02:26) Bo,
Read this and tell me if the 'Word' as per the Jewish understanding is, in some contexts, a presence of some sort or just always a spoken/written word.Quote Gen 3:8
8They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the gardenSame verse paraphrased according to Jewish understanding:
And they heard the voice of the Word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening of the day;[21] and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
Quote
Gen 3:10
10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”Same verse paraphrased according to Jewish understanding:
And he said, The voice of Thy Word heard I in the garden, and I was afraid, because I (was) naked, and I would hide.
Quote
Gen 6:6-7
6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”Same verse paraphrased according to Jewish understanding:
And it repented the Lord in His Word that He had made men upon the earth. And He said, (in His Word,)[34] that He would break their strength according to His pleasure. And the Lord said, Man whom I have made will I blot out[35] I from the face of the earth; from man to the beast, to the reptile, and to the fowls of heaven; because it repenteth Me in My Word that I have made them.
Quote Gen 9:8-17
8Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, 9“Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; 10and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth. 11“I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.” 12God said, “This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations; 13I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. 14“It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud, 15and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16“When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.” 17And God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth.”And the Lord spake to Noach, and to his sons with him, saying, And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you and with your children after you, and with every living thing which is with you, of fowl, of cattle, and of every beast of the field that is with you, of all going forth from the ark of every animal of the earth. And I will establish My covenant with you, and all flesh shall not again be consumed by the waters of a deluge, nor shall there be again a deluge to destroy the earth. And the Lord said, This is the sign of the covenant which I appoint (give) between My Word, and between you, and between every living soul that is with you unto perpetual generations. I have set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of the covenant between My Word and between the earth. And it shall be that when clouding I becloud the earth, the bow shall be seen in the cloud ,and I will remember the covenant which is between My Word, and between You, and between every living soul of all flesh; and there shall not be again the waters of a deluge to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud, and I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between the Word of the Lord and between every living soul of all flesh that is upon the earth. And the Lord said, This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between My Word and between all flesh which is upon the earth.
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I keep telling you ambiguity is not evidence of anything but I must ask something that Mike brought up in the other thread as it is literally my exact thought:Kathi,
What's your take on Exodus 7:17? After all, Jehovah told Moses he would be God to Pharaoh, and Aaron would be his very own prophet, right?
And Paul later says that the Israelites were baptized into Moses in the wilderness, right?
And Moses did many signs and wonders just like Jesus did, right?
And when Paul says the Rock in the wilderness was Christ, he could very well have been talking about Moses, since Moses was one of the many christs of God, right?
Why do none of these things make Moses a part of the Godhead, or equal to Jehovah……………. but if similar things are said about Jesus, those things DO make him “Jehovah Jr”, or equal to his own God?
Anyway, please explain 7:17 for me. Tell me what it means that MOSES was the one holding the staff and striking the water, but Jehovah said HE was holding the staff and striking the water.
BD,
Quote God created Jesus by His Word not that Jesus was that word. Jesus was the Word that became flesh. So you agree that Jesus was the Word that became flesh, that's good. The scriptures say that Jesus, the Word, made all things and not one thing was made without Him. So you say something different, you say that all but many things was made without Him if He was indeed 'made' and the angels were already made.
No one can be the first'born' of all creation and also be the first created of all creation. Jesus was born, not created. Adam was the first created man, not the first'born' man.
The Son made ALL things visible and invisible in heaven and on earth. Are the angels not in heaven??
Bo,
Quote What's your take on Exodus 7:17?
Exodus 7:17
'Thus says the LORD, “By this you shall know that I am the LORD: behold, I will strike the water that is in the Nile with the staff that is in my hand, and it will be turned to blood.You need to read the whole story to realize the LORD is speaking metaphorically. Moses will be 'as' God to Aaron and Aaron will be 'as' a mouth to Moses.
Exodus 4: 10Then Moses said to the LORD, “Please, Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.” 11The LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? 12“Now then go, and I, even I, will be with your mouth, and teach you what you are to say.” 13But he said, “Please, Lord, now send the message by whomever You will.”
Then the anger of the LORD burned against Moses, and He said, “Is there not your brother Aaron the Levite? I know that he speaks fluently. And moreover, behold, he is coming out to meet you; when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart. 15“You are to speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I, even I, will be with your mouth and his mouth, and I will teach you what you are to do. 16“Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and he will be as a mouth for you and you will be as God to him. 17“You shall take in your hand this staff, with which you shall perform the signs.”This is the Jewish paraphrase of this understanding with their understanding from the Targums:
And Mosheh said before the Lord, O Lord, I pray: I am not a man of words, nor ever have been before that Thou didst speak with Thy servant; for I am of a staggering mouth and staggering speech. [JERUSALEM. For of a staggering mouth and difficult speech am I.] And the Lord said, Who is he who first put the language of the mouth into the mouth of man? or who hath appointed the dumb or the deaf, the open-seeing or the blind, but I the Lord ? And now go, and I by My Word will be with the speaking of thy mouth, and will teach thee what thou shalt say.
And he said, I pray for mercy before the Lord. Send now Thy sending by the hand of Phinehas, by whom it is to be sent at the end of the days. [JERUSALEM. Send now by the hand of him by whom it is opportune to send.] And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Mosheh, and He said, Is it not manifest before Me that Aharon thy brother speaking can speak ? And, behold, also, he cometh forth to meet thee, and will see thee and rejoice in his heart. And thou shalt speak with him, and put the matter in his mouth, and My Word shall be with the word of thy mouth, and with the word of his mouth, and I will instruct you what you are to do. And he shall speak for thee with the people, and be to thee an interpreter, and thou to him the principal, seeking instruction from before the Lord. [JERUSALEM. He shall be to thee an interpreter, and thou to him one inquiring instruction from before the Lord.] And this rod take thou in thy hand to work therewith the signs.From here: http://targum.info/pj/pjex1-6.htm
The Son of God is the Arm of the LORD and the Word of the LORD, so I believe the 'hand' that will be empowering the staff that Moses is holding is the Son of God as well as the one giving the words to Moses.
You can see that the LORD does the supernatural things through His Word and includes this 'Word' as one with Himself.
Moses is no more truly the God of Aaron than Aaron is Moses's mouth. This is a metaphor to mean that Moses will give God's words to Aaron for Him to speak for Moses as Moses' interpreter.
Bo,
Quote Why do none of these things make Moses a part of the Godhead, or equal to Jehovah……………. but if similar things are said about Jesus, those things DO make him “Jehovah Jr”, or equal to his own God? Jesus was not 'as' God but was God with God.
Moses was 'as' God…a metaphor.John 1:1 does not say:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was 'as' God.The Word WAS God and with God, not 'as' God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,15:59) Bo, Quote Why do none of these things make Moses a part of the Godhead, or equal to Jehovah……………. but if similar things are said about Jesus, those things DO make him “Jehovah Jr”, or equal to his own God? Jesus was not 'as' God but was God with God.
Moses was 'as' God…a metaphor.John 1:1 does not say:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was 'as' God.The Word WAS God and with God, not 'as' God.
Yu don't seem to believe that the verse in John could be allegory have you not noticed that the book of John has a much more mystical style? In John Jesus doesn't cry in the garden of gesemene he doesn't ask God to save him it is a completely metaphysical escoteric view.How is it in genesis the language is not the same at all there is no “and the Word was with God” do you hink that was a secret then?
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