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Jodi: I do not at all deny that God created all things through Jesus. I declare it and find it to be a most profound truth… God’s purpose for His creation would be executed through a man whom God calls (Isaiah 46), and it is Jesus who IS that man.
I agree with almost everything in your post. Yes, Jesus was a man whom God foretold He’d send.
Jodi: Eternal life does not come to us because God sent a spirit son down to earth.
This part I take issue with. Where can I read in scripture that the messiah must be a man who is exactly like any other man? After all, even in your understanding, Jesus was never like any other man. Who else had a human mother but not a human father? So that right there should tell us that the man Jesus is quite different from all other men, right?
Also, your statement is akin to you saying, “Eternal life does not come to us from a man whom God made from rock on the ground.”
You seem to be falling into the mindset of the Pharisees whom John the Baptizer scolded. In their minds, being a son of Abraham was ONLY possible by the normal means of being a natural descendant of Abraham’s loins. Yet John told them that God could raise up children of Abraham from rocks, right? So had God raised up Jesus from rocks and called him a son of Jesse, you’d likely cry foul because in your own mind, a son of Jesse MUST BE one who came through Jesse’s loins in the normal way.
So can you see the error in your thinking? Yes, Jesus is a son of David. But God could have raised him up as a son of David without even going through Mary. God could have raised up this particular son of David from a rock . Likewise, God could have raised up this particular son of David by sending His spirit son to be born of a human woman.
Thoughts?
Jodi said: Scripture directly tells us that Jesus IS the root and offspring of David.
The root of a plant comes before the rest of the plant, the offspring of the plant comes after the plant exists and then reproduces.
The Son of God is both before Jesse and David (as the Word who all things were created through), and after as the incarnated son who came through David’s lineage via Mary and Joseph since Joseph was his legal father.
That little distinction helps clear up so much confusion. Jesse and David did not come from the flesh man Jesus, they came through the Son of God who is the Word that all things were created through.
The confusion with the word “dia” often translated as the word “through” to try to prove that the Son did not exist during creation is completely ridiculous. If someone walked through Samaria, for instance, that would require Samaria to have existed. If God spoke through Moses, that proves that Moses existed, etc. To state that all things were made through the Son, that proves that the Son existed while all things were made through the Son. Not only did the Son exist while all things were made through Him, He had an active role…the Son is the LORD who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of HIS HANDS.
Hebrews 1
8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”I hope that helps. LU
Berean: Mike
Colossians 2: 9
In French we have translated
The word DIVINITY( DIVINITE)
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the DIVINITY bodily.
That’s a much better translation than “Godhead” – which is a man’s idea and is nowhere found in scripture. I agree that God’s fullness dwells in His holy servant Jesus. After all, Jesus is the only one to whom God has given His Spirit without measure.
Berean: EMMANUEL: GOD WITH US
God IS with us. As in, “if God is with us, who can stand against us?” Emmanuel doesn’t in any sense of the word indicate that anyone bearing that title actually IS the Most High God of gods.
Berean: The birds are starting to sing here in France…
Fantastic! It is a new spring, and within the next few months people will start to realize that the world they thought they lived in doesn’t exist.
Berean: Heb.1…
Who(Jesus Christ) being the brightness of his glory(of God the Father), and the express image of his person(of the Father)
Heb 1: God (one entity) spoke to us THROUGH mere mortal men in the past.
God (one entity) spoke to us THROUGH his son and servant (Jesus) in these latter days.
God (one entity) appointed this servant (Jesus) a lot of good things, and made him joint heirs with us of His “last will and testament”.
God (one entity) made all things, and did that THROUGH his servant (Jesus), much as he created all of us THROUGH his servants (our parents).
Jesus, as the most perfect servant of his and our God, Jehovah, reflects God’s brightness and the personality of his and our God better than anyone else in God’s (one entity) creation.
Ed: Hi Mike,
I’m glad to see you’re back posting again!
What ever happened to Pierre?
Thanks, Ed. Pierre was suffering with pancreatic cancer for years, and I think he finally succumbed to it. He was on another discussion forum with me and Dig4Truth for a while, and then just “disappeared” a couple of years back. I believe he has passed away. Is Kerwin still around?
Berean: Edj
Where you have seen one verse
that say that it is By crucifixion THE LORD MADE THE WORLDS ?
I AM WAITING 👤. ….
Ed: Hi Berean,
“the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8)
“Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born,
and for this cause came I into the world” (John 18:37)“Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour:
but for this cause came I unto this hour.” (John 12:27)“For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8)
Ed, all of these scriptures were spoken AFTER the world already existed. Kind of hard for God to create these things through crucifixion when they already existed before the crucifixion. The KJV translation of Rev 13:8 is nonsensical, and is clearly a poor ordering of the Greek words. Consider…
Revelation 17:8
The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction. The inhabitants of the earth – all those whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world – will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is to come.It is the names of the saved who have been written in the book of life since God created the earth. The book of life BELONGS to the Lamb who was slain. This is a much better word order of the same verse…
Revelation 13:8
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.
Gene: Mike…. I think you and Jodi do agree I also agree with you both.
We all agree that Jesus was a man who was foreordained by God. Many different scriptures make it clear that Jesus existed prior to this though – and so you and I and Jodi agree on some things, but not on others.
Hi Lightenup and All,
YOU:Deuteronomy 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
Jesus is the Lord of lords here.
ME: I hope people will read and pay close attention to what these scriptures directly teach you.
Psalm 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. 2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms. 3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods. 4 In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also. 5 The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land. 6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. 7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Our Heavenly Father is a God of gods and a Lord of lords, and a great King above all gods.
Matthew 11: 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Now recall, Jesus speaks our Father’s word because our Father gave him of His Spirit not by measure.
Jesus reveals not his words but our Heavenly Father’s words. Jesus calls our Father our Lord of heaven and earth. Through Jesus speaking our Father’s words, we hear our Father.
Here it is again by Luke,
Luke 10: 21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Jesus tells us to pray to our Father, who is Lord of heaven and earth, saying Hallowed be his name.
Luke 11: 2 And he said unto them,When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Jesus gives praise, he thanks our heavenly Father who has a Hallowed name.
Psalm 148:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created. 6 He hath also established them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass. 7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps: 8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word: 9 Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars: 10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl: 11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth: 12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children: 13 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven. 14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.
Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Our heavenly Father, Lord of heaven and earth where Hallowed be his name Yehovah, who is a God of gods, and a Lord of lords, and a great King above all gods, MADE JESUS a lord and Christ unto us, where Yehovah places him on his father David’s throne to be a king higher than all kings.
Psalm 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
“that same Jesus” who God made lord and Christ, IS according to that same chapter in Acts,
“Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Read it again,
Luke 10: 21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
God raised Jesus from the dead giving him LIFE and a portion with the great, appointing him to divide the portion, BECAUSE “he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors,” of which he did by being OBEDIENT to His God, and that obedience occurred through God directing all his ways. How does God cause a man to walk in His statues? “I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them”
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
People, the man ordained of God to judge the world is NOT possibly Jehovah, Jehovah is the name of our Father who alone created heaven and earth. The God who made the world and all things ordained a man to judge the world. God appointed a day, and that day was determined by God before the world even was. Our heavenly Father appointed a man to have dominion over that which our Father made, of which God had determined that appointing before the world was, thus our Father created all things by reason of and for him.
Gene you say
Jesus is before us in all things, in regards to the kingdom of God, but he is always subject to God the Father, in authority.
1 Cor 15:27….”for he (God) has put all things under his (Jesus’) feet, it is “manifest” that “he is excepted”, which put “all things” under him.”
Berean are you able to actually understand that scripture?
Gene,
You’re answering me this way because someone once put it into your head
that Jesus is not of divine nature.BUT The Bible doesn’t teach that. Jesus is the divine Son of God who was made flesh as the beloved John says.
He was with God in the beginning, and all things were made by Him and all
things remain in Him.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made…..John 1[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist….Colossians 1
3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,…..Hebrews 1
Amen Glory be to God for such a savior and Lord.
Lightenup: Good words Berean!
This passage is so wonderful:
Philippians 2Be Like Christ
…did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped…
You posted that, Kathi. What do those last words mean to you?
Berean: Amen
Words’ S song (Héritage singers)
Because of love He left His throne
And made this Earth His home
He did it willingly
For you and me
With heaven left behind
He came to save all mankind
From sin and shame
He could have walked away
But instead He chose
To stay upon that tree
And take a crown of thrones for me
Because of love
Because of love He bore my pain (He bore my pain)
Shouldering the blame
Why did He chose to go (He didn’t have to go)
How could He love me so
Because of love He called to me (He called to me)
He said “Child I will set you free (You’ll have)
Life abundantly (Life abundantly)
Because of love (Because of love)
He gave unselfishly
Caused my blinded to eyes to see
It was you and me He had in mind
On that road to Calvary
I’ve never known such a perfect love
I had fallen down but He…God bless
What beautiful poetry, Berean. I think we can all agree that we love Jesus and appreciate his sacrifice. Those who believe he is God love him. Those who believe he began his existence as a man love him. And those of us who KNOW that the truth is somewhere in between those two understandings love him. 😉
Lightenup: And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
Two different persons. The LORD of hosts has sent someone other than the LORD of hosts.
Mike,
referring to this:
LU said:This passage is so wonderful:
Philippians 2Be Like Christ
…did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped…
Mike asked:You posted that, Kathi. What do those last words mean to you?
There is the begetter and the begotten, both identical in form and type, different in relationship. The begotten, although being in the form of the begetter, did not consider the authority of the begetter to be something to challenge, to seize for himself, and didn’t even insist that the privileges of his position as the ONLY begotten Son be held onto, demanded. In other words, it was the Son who willingly gave up the honor due Him as the ONLY begotten Son of God the Father in order to do what was necessary to redeem mankind. The begotten Son acted in the humblest manner and we are to be humble in our mindset also.
I liken it to a wealthy and honorable prince, becoming a homeless person if it meant the redemption of the people he was to be king over someday.
Now are you gonna admit that the cell theory portrays two identical cells, equal in age, distinct from each other and in relationship as parent and offspring?
Lightenup: I propose that the original, in the case of an eternal source, is either the eternally existing father and son where the son is existing but not yet begotten…
Why would you propose something like that? Scriptural reason? Or personal? “Today I have begotten a son who already existed from eternity inside of me.” Hmm…
Lightenup: Since you are wrong immediately in your first sentence above in your post, you build the rest of your post on sand and the definition of “clone” washed it away.
Please explain how I am wrong. I said, “The closest example we have of a cloned person would be an identical twin. Has there ever been a case where one identical twin is considered the father or son of the other one?”
Do you have an example of a closer example than the one I listed? What if we had an ACTUAL human clone to compare? Would the cloned individual be the son of the original? Was that clone already “existing but not yet begotten” inside the original?
Lightenup: Here is the definition:
an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical.
That fits a father/son relationship.
No, Kathi… it most definitely doesn’t. And let’s not overlook the word PRODUCED in your definition. As in, one entity PRODUCED another entity.
Lightenup: You show me scriptures that say Jesus is the first creation by God and I will accept that.
Revelation 3:14 KJV
And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
Colossians 1:15 KJV
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
Proverbs 8 NET
22 The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.
24 When there were no deep ocean I was born…
25 before the mountains were set in place –before the hills – I was born…
Micah 5:2 NET
As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah… from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf, one whose origins are in the distant past.
Kathi, can you give me just ONE scriptural reason why Jesus absolutely CAN’T be the first creation of his and our God, Jehovah?
Kathi: Understand? Two wills united as one united will still realizes two distinct wills, but both are in agreement.
Two wills necessitates two persons. Two persons necessitates creators – not creator. Now go re-read the prayer in Acts 4. The apostles clearly prayed TO a single Creator who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them. Is that correct or not?
The apostles later referred to Jesus as the “holy servant OF” this single Creator who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them. Is that correct or not?
Please reconcile.
Hi Mike,
YOU: We all agree that Jesus was a man who was foreordained by God. Many different scriptures make it clear that Jesus existed prior to this though – and so you and I and Jodi agree on some things, but not on others.
ME: I know I have given some long posts that you may not be taking the time to read, so I will sum up what Gene and I see as the error we believe people make in reading passages thinking that they are speaking of Jesus existing prior.
I’d first like to say a correction is needed by what you said, “Jesus IS a man who was foreordained by God”, so maybe we don’t actually agree, if you do not believe that Jesus IS still a man?
Gene and I believe that the words that the prophets, apostles, and Jesus all spoke, that were our Heavenly Father’s words and not their own, were all things that were with our Heavenly Father before the world was.
In other words,
Our heavenly Father declared all things that would be, all things that would occur. He did declare the End from the beginning and all that is in between before the beginning even began.
When the prophets, apostles, and Jesus spoke God’s words in their day, they spoke things that were, that are, and that which would be. All the things that they spoke revealed to them by God had been with God before the world began, destined by God to be fulfilled, nothing would be held back.
Scripture tells me that a man was to come, a man did come, a man sits at God’s right hand, a man is returning to sit on an eternal throne. A man received eternal life and became our source for eternal life. God’s promise before the world began was eternal life. A man receives dominion and a man judges. A man justified us from all things. The very word that Jesus is firstborn of many brethren, were with God before the world was, and thus I believe it is he that God created all things by reason of and for him.
I don’t change the image of him, I apply the very he that was of God’s word before the world began.
Where people believe a passage is revealing to us Jesus existed prior, I believe the passage is expressing the same truth that God had given to Isaiah for us to believe, God’s purpose of salvation and eternal life would be executed by the calling of a man, and thus God would have created all things by reason of and for him, for without this man there would be no purpose, as the purpose is for the firstborn of many brethren to sit on an eternal throne.
We are told specifically what the glory that Jesus has IS, and MOST certainly that glory was of God for a man to have before the world began. Jesus knew of that glory, it was written by the prophets, he spoke of it himself, and when he was preparing to go to the cross he declared his faith in God’s word unto God as he asked him to receive that glory.
Kathi: If God spoke through Moses, that proves that Moses existed, etc. To state that all things were made through the Son, that proves that the Son existed while all things were made through the Son.
Excellent!
Mike,
You asked: Why would you propose something like that?
My answer: To provide a real life example of something that demonstrates how through the asexual reproduction process of binary fission, the simplest parent/offspring relationship which, according to a first and only generation, demonstrates that the age of the substance in both is identical in age and type. No one can say that the son can not possibly be as old as his father with that example.
The common argument that the son of God can’t be as old as his Father because a father is always older that his son, is null and void from that one real life example. You can’t say that the example doesn’t demonstrate a parent/offspring example. It isn’t a human example but God is not human so that doesn’t matter.
Kathi: …did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped…
Mike asked:You posted that, Kathi. What do those last words mean to you?
There is the begetter and the begotten, both identical in form and type, different in relationship.Identical? Scripture please?
Kathi: Now are you gonna admit that the cell theory portrays two identical cells, equal in age, distinct from each other and in relationship as parent and offspring?
Let’s see… first there was only ONE cell. Then later there were two. Yet both cells are “equal in age”? And one is the father of the other – who is the son of the former? Yeah, I won’t be “admitting” any of that. 😉
Jodi: I’d first like to say a correction is needed by what you said, “Jesus IS a man who was foreordained by God”, so maybe we don’t actually agree, if you do not believe that Jesus IS still a man?
No, Jesus is no longer flesh and blood – for those things cannot enter nor inherit the Kingdom of God.
And no, I don’t believe that words that Jehovah would eventually speak through prophets were what was “with Him” before the world was created.
I do agree that Jesus was a man who was foretold by Jehovah. So let’s go back to where we started. You say the man Jesus couldn’t have been a spirit son of God who was later born of a woman on earth. I explained that Jesus could have been a rock before God made him a son of David and Jesse. I pointed out that, even in your understanding, Jesus wasn’t ever exactly like all other men – in that he had no earthly father.
So is it possible that God could have raised up a son of Jesse by sending a spirit son to be born of a flesh woman? It seems to me that you couldn’t possibly honestly say no – since who are we to say what’s possible or not when it comes to things of God, right? So I’ll assume you agree that this is at least possible, though you don’t currently understand it this way. So let’s now discuss just one single scripture…
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
What does Jesus mean that he had glory in God’s presence before the world began? (Please, let’s both keep it short and too the point from here on out.)
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