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Hi t8
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 20 2008,10:31) 1) proskuneo is used in a true sense in the following verse:
“Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship (proskuneo) before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.”As you can see that those who will receive proskuneo are not YHWH and it is legitimate proskuneo toward those who are faithful. This is enough to consider your proposal that only YHWH receives proskuneo as not being true. Case closed, unless you have some new evidence to backup your notion.
No, case not closed. The scripture is ambiguous.
Yahshua didn’t say…”I will make them to come and worship (proskuneo) “you”…”
It says…”I will make them to come and worship (proskuneo) “before thy feet“, and to know that I have loved thee”.
Yahshua is not telling the saints that they would be worshipped (proskuneo) as the Father is worshipped since Yahshua used the same word “worship (proskuneo)” in John 4 in describing our worship of the Father.
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship “(proskuneo)” the Father. Ye worship “(proskuneo)” ye know not what: we know what we worship “(proskuneo)”: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers “(proskynētēs)” shall worship “(proskuneo)” the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship “(proskuneo)” him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship “(proskuneo)” him must worship “(proskuneo)” him in spirit and in truth. John 4:21-24
Yahshua is not promoting the worship (proskuneo) of saints.
For honour, or praise or glory Yahshua could have used
Worship (doxa) which means..
a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and gloryBut when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship (doxa) in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. Luke 14:10
Or he could have used
Praise (exousia) which means…
1) approbation, commendation, praiseFor rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise (exousia) of the same: Romans 13:3
Or he could have used
Honour (timē) which means…
1) a valuing by which the price is fixed
a) of the price itself
b) of the price paid or received for a person or thing bought or sold
2) honour which belongs or is shown to one
a) of the honour which one has by reason of rank and state of office which he holds
b) deference, reverenceBut glory, honour (timē) and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:10
None of these examples uses the word “(proskuneo)” to describe honour, praise, and glory to men.
John and the Apostles were not at all confused about the word “(proskuneo)” and Yashua's use of the word in describing the “True Worship” of the Father.
So again, there is no example of the word “(proskuneo)” in the scriptures for “True worship” by the saints other than toward the Father and Yahshua.
WJ
Hi WJ,
You should not have to live with ambiguity.
That ambiguity comes from your unbiblical ideas about the Son of God.
The Lord Jesus Christ is not your God and he never told you to worship him but he did describe true worshipers.Are you among them? Jn4
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 21 2008,10:39) The Lord Jesus Christ is not your God and he never told you to worship him but he did describe true worshipers.
No he is my Lord and God. But apparantly he is not yours.WJ
WJ……Jesus said He had a God, do you think it was Himself? He said I am going to (MY GOD) and YOUR GOD, (MY FATHER) and YOUR FATHER. He also said for (THOU) art the (ONLY) true GOD. The word (ONLY) means no other, The word (THOU) means not the person saying it. How many plain scriptures do you have to through away to try to get your Theology across?
peace……….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 21 2008,11:04) WJ……Jesus said He had a God, do you think it was Himself? He said I am going to (MY GOD) and YOUR GOD, (MY FATHER) and YOUR FATHER. He also said for (THOU) art the (ONLY) true GOD. The word (ONLY) means no other, The word (THOU) means not the person saying it. How many plain scriptures do you have to through away to try to get your Theology across? peace……….gene
Hi GBI guess he is not your Lord and God either.
But he was Thomas's, Peter's and Paul's
And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28
From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1
while we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of 'our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” will be revealed. Titus 2:13
I think I would rather believe them.
WJ
WJ….Jesus is indeed my lord but he is (NOT) my GOD. His GOD is MY GOD and we have the same Father who is GOD. The Fathers Presence was in Jesus via the Holy Spirit , but was not Him, Just as the Fathers Spirit can be in us, but not us. Remember Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) Himself and went to say the (FATHER) in me, He doth the works. God was in Jesus reconciling the world unto Himself, but being in Jesus does not make him Jesus. Why would Jesus say He was going to the Father if He was the Father. Didn't he Quote ” Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD is (ONE) LORD”. The (OUR) included Him also.
Peace………. gene
T8…..ya i think i was getting a little to intense there, which i have a tendency to do at times. Thanks for fixing my posting problem.
peace and love to you and yours……………gene
gene,
welcome!where were you for these many days.God is spirit.God cannot be our father unless he shows himself as blood and flesh.Therefore, God, the father sent his word(hidden spokesperson in him, a living spiritual being as powerful as himself) enveloped by himself .God is spirit.God is a person because he has personaality as us.God has has another invisible personality in which he stored all his power that is word or firstborn alongth with God inseparably.jesus is God , the father because he partook flesh and blood in order to make us his children, as flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven.hence, Jesus is father,brother ,friend and every thing to me.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 21 2008,15:09) Yeah amen GB. A refreshing post after your holiday.
Should take a break more often.
Thank you t8 (Insert unfounded smile)
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 21 2008,15:09) Yeah amen GB. A refreshing post after your holiday.
Should take a break more often.
Thanks brother T8 for allowing brother Gene to post in this forum.Quote And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God”. John 20:28 From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ”, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1
while we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of 'our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” will be revealed. Titus 2:13
Out of the 7 or 9 scriptures trinitarians take to understand that Jesus is being called God, why is it that 7 or 8 of them are like this, with the word “and” in the middle, as though it could be speaking of God “and” Jesus?
Doesn't it bother you that there are literally a thousand scriptures that say in no uncertain terms that Jehovah is God, and yet, almost all the scriptures trinitarians use to support Jesus is God, could be taken more than one way? It seems we're just playing with comma's here.
It seems there should be more scriptures that say: “our God Jesus.” or, “Jesus, our God.” Instead, we find these Jesus “and” God scriptures.
I'm not saying Jesus is never called God. I'm saying that he is only called “god” in no uncertain terms a few times in scripture. (And of course, that word fits him.)Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2008,19:29) Quote And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God”. John 20:28 From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ”, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1
while we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of 'our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” will be revealed. Titus 2:13
Out of the 7 or 9 scriptures trinitarians take to understand that Jesus is being called God, why is it that 7 or 8 of them are like this, with the word “and” in the middle, as though it could be speaking of God “and” Jesus?
Doesn't it bother you that there are literally a thousand scriptures that say in no uncertain terms that Jehovah is God, and yet, almost all the scriptures trinitarians use to support Jesus is God, could be taken more than one way? It seems we're just playing with comma's here.
It seems there should be more scriptures that say: “our God Jesus.” or, “Jesus, our God.” Instead, we find these Jesus “and” God scriptures.
I'm not saying Jesus is never called God. I'm saying that he is only called “god” in no uncertain terms a few times in scripture. (And of course, that word fits him.)
David,
Thank you for putting into words what I have been unable to for some reason? I copying this post for future reference.Love,
MandyHi, Mandy,
pl. see this :
Data element One: The use of a “composite unity” word for 'one' in the Shema of Deut 6.4-5.This is the older translation of the famous Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” There are two words for 'one' in Biblical Hebrew: 'ehad ('one', 'alone', 'unity from parts') and 'yahid' (always means uniqueness/solitary-only one of its kind [cf. used of only son and only daughter, Gen 22.2,12,16; Jer 6.26; Judges 11.34]…not the same word as 'yahad' that often means 'in complete unity, together,united' cf. Deut 33.5, Ps 133.1). This verse is sometimes used by a few groups within the Jewish tradition to assert the numerical unity of God's nature, over against what they perceive as a 'Christian' notion of plurality-in-unity. But this verse either doesn't support their position (i.e., it doesn’t talk about God's nature at all); or actually does the opposite (i.e., by leaving a door open to 'composite unity'). Instead of using YAHID, which MIGHT be of some support to their position, it uses 'EHAD, which lends itself to the plurality position (or certainly allows it). Consider some other passages in which 'EHAD is used:
Gen 2.24–the man and his wife will be one (ehad) flesh–clearly a composite unity.
Ex 26:6, 11–the fifty gold clasps are used to hold the curtains together so that the tent would be a unit (ehad).
2 Samuel 2:25–many soldiers made themselves into 'one group' (ehad)
Gen 34:16 –the men of Shechem suggest intermarriage with Jacob's children in order to become 'one(ehad) people'.
Joshua 9.2 — the western kings agree to fight Joshua as “one (ehad) force”
Josh 10.42– “And Joshua captured all these kings and their lands at one (ehad) time” (NAS) or “All these kings and their lands Joshua conquered in one (ehad) campaign” (NIV)
Ex 24.3 –“Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one (ehad) voice, and said”
2 Chr 5.12–“and all the Levitical singers, Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun, and their sons and kinsmen, clothed in fine linen, with cymbals, harps, and lyres, standing east of the altar, and with them one hundred and twenty priests blowing trumpets 13 in unison when the trumpeters and the singers were to make themselves heard with one (ehad) voice to praise and to glorify the Lord”
Gen 11.6–“And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one (ehad) people, and they all have the same language.”
So, from the usage data ALONE, 'ehad could at least ALLOW a plurality-within-a-strict-unity (i.e. Trinity).
As light is made of 7 colours and then becomes a complete/whole light(definition of light), God is one only made of spiriit annd son also.
pulivarthyQuote (david @ Oct. 21 2008,19:29) Quote And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God”. John 20:28 From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ”, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1
while we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of 'our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” will be revealed. Titus 2:13
Out of the 7 or 9 scriptures trinitarians take to understand that Jesus is being called God, why is it that 7 or 8 of them are like this, with the word “and” in the middle, as though it could be speaking of God “and” Jesus?
Doesn't it bother you that there are literally a thousand scriptures that say in no uncertain terms that Jehovah is God, and yet, almost all the scriptures trinitarians use to support Jesus is God, could be taken more than one way? It seems we're just playing with comma's here.
It seems there should be more scriptures that say: “our God Jesus.” or, “Jesus, our God.” Instead, we find these Jesus “and” God scriptures.
I'm not saying Jesus is never called God. I'm saying that he is only called “god” in no uncertain terms a few times in scripture. (And of course, that word fits him.)
David…. Trinitarians and preexistences both use vague and unclear scriptures to support their positions. You can not get one absolute clear statement to Justify either positions, and you would think they would have a CLEAR and UNAMBIGUOUS ones to justify such an important thing as Jesus' preexistence or his position in the GOD Head. imopeace to you and yours…………….gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 21 2008,12:05) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 21 2008,11:04) WJ……Jesus said He had a God, do you think it was Himself? He said I am going to (MY GOD) and YOUR GOD, (MY FATHER) and YOUR FATHER. He also said for (THOU) art the (ONLY) true GOD. The word (ONLY) means no other, The word (THOU) means not the person saying it. How many plain scriptures do you have to through away to try to get your Theology across? peace……….gene
Hi GBI guess he is not your Lord and God either.
But he was Thomas's, Peter's and Paul's
And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28
From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1
while we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of 'our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” will be revealed. Titus 2:13
I think I would rather believe them.
WJ
John 1:1 and other Scriptures in John show us that the Word is called God. But He is not the Almighty God. The Father who is above all, is.
Ephesians 4:6
Peace and Love Irene
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