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“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul
also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles,speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures,
unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before,
beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.” (2 Peter 3:15-17)Ed J,
Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.Notice the word ‘son’ followed by ‘through whom he made the universe’. How can you explain this away?
Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.Notice the words ‘all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things,’.
Who is that talking about?
You say that God never created the everything through him. But scripture clearly states just that. You say that it just means on behalf of him or because of him. If that were true, then why say ‘created through Him and for Him’. Does that mean because of him and because of him’. Clearly there are two things stated here, ‘for’ and ‘through’.
You only explain one of these. What about the other?
The logic of what you have presented reminds me of your teaching regarding the the sword of the Spirit being the Word of God and the Word of God being the Spirit. Another gaping hole there because you make no distinction between the spirit and the sword of the spirit.
You do realise that when you post here that obvious fallacies will be pointed out right?
Ed, if the Word of God does not convict them of their error, then all I can do is to pray. God told me to share my understanding of the scriptures with those in authority is the so called “Orthodox Church”, not with the attitude of I am right and you are wrong, but with the objective of bringing the church into unity in His Word. And I ask God every morning to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His Will. He has corrected me many a time, but He has not corrected me relative to what I am teaching relative to John 1, and therefore, I believe that what I am teaching is correct.
The Pastor of the church where I currently worship taught on 1 Co. ch 8 this morning, which speaks of eating meat offered to idols, and indicating that to a Christian an idol is nothing, and we know that there is but “One God” the Father for whom are all things, and one lord Jesus through whom are all things, and we by him”.
This pastor is really a good teacher, but I don’t know why he and others try to force the “Trinity doctrine” into the above scripture which clearly states that “there is but One God, the Father”. I don’t know how this could be made any clearer.
I have shared my understanding of the scriptures with the pastors of this church, and so, all I can do now is to pray that God will convict them of their error.
If they want to continue in their false doctrines after they have heard the truth, God will hold them accountable. As the Apostle Paul stated: “the blood is not on my hands”.
Love in Christ,
Martyt8,
I did answer it by pointing out every human being comes in the flesh. The word took on the characteristic of humanity. In short both came in the flesh. Jesus Christ embodies the word that comes out of God mouth. For the same reason he is also called the power and wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:24)
Hi T8:
This is how Strong’s concordance has the definition of “the Word was made flesh”.
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
to become, i.e. to come to pass, happenThe Word of God in the OT in various ways pertains to the coming of our Lord Jesus, and so, what God had spoken or prophesied relative to his being came into existence, and so, yes, what God has spoken relative to Jesus came into being just as he had spoken. Jesus was born with a flesh body, but it was the Word that was spoken that “was made flesh”. How? God overshadowed by His Holy Spirit and he was conceived in her womb and born into this world.
Love in Christ,
MartyI did answer it by pointing out every human being comes in the flesh. The word took on the characteristic of humanity. In short both came in the flesh. Jesus Christ embodies the word that comes out of God mouth. For the same reason he is also called the power and wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:24)
Okay, so the Word became flesh and Jesus came in the flesh. And they are the same, but Jesus is not the Word. Please explain.
This is how Strong’s concordance has the definition of “the Word was made flesh”.
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
to become, i.e. to come to pass, happenMarty, does that not simply mean that the Word existed in the flesh?
If you draw Jesus lineage to the flesh, then you trust in man. Why not draw his linage from the Word? The flesh counts for nothing.
Jesus came in the flesh and he did so for a specific purpose. Although he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself and came in the flesh fr our sakes.
The Book of John is about Jesus Christ. It talks about his role and origin.
t8,
Okay, so the Word became flesh and Jesus came in the flesh. And they are the same, but Jesus is not the Word. Please explain.
God is Love but God is not the same as Love.
The Word is Jesus but he is not the same as Jesus.Neither Love or the Word are beings.
t8,
Jesus Christ is a being as is God but the Word did not have the characteristic of existing as a being before Jesus was conceived in Mary.
God has always been Love.
Edj
3. Therefore it is safe to conclude: it is through Jesus’ death on the cross that all things were created by God.
I think I understand what you try to convey to us ;you believe that through the wisdom of God ;God created a cartoon movie and later it became a real movie with real live actors right ? this being after Jesus death ,everything before was a cartoon right ?
t8,
Jesus Christ is a being as is God but the Word did not have the characteristic of existing as a being before Jesus was conceived in Mary.
God has always been Love.Okay, so Jesus was born a flesh being meaning to you that he CAME in the flesh.
So when the Word became flesh, then that ended up being Jesus too.So both Jesus and the Word came in the flesh.
Yet Jesus is not the Word even though both came in the flesh and we are talking of one being.
It doesn’t add up to me. If Jesus is not the Word and the Word that was WITH God became a flesh being, and so did Jesus, then what am I missing from your understanding to make this add up.
T8…..The WORD, who is GOD THE FATHER, who is SPIRIT, CAME TO BE “IN” THE FLESH MAN JESUS. WHY not just believe what JESUS SAID? “The Father is “IN” ME, and again, “THE WORDS I AM TELLING YOU ARE “NOT” MY WORDS, BUT THE WORDS OF HIM THAT SENT ME” . How could Jesus be the WORD, when he said, the words were not his words?
T8 your still trying to hold on to the prexistence of JESUS, it is clouding you understanding brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene
t8,
I do not think you understand me correctly.
Jesus came in the flesh when he was made of his mother, as is common to humanity in general.
The word that comes from God’s mouth and by which he made the world and everything in it became flesh( aka human being) when God gave his Spirit to Jesus.
After the word of God became flesh Jesus Christ is both the word of God and the human being that was named Jesus by angels.
There is not a significant amount of time when Jesus, the human, was separate from the word of God.
You are missing that the word is not a being in the beginning. It only becomes a being when it unites with Jesus as that and his humanity is what he contributes to the unity.
How is it then that the Word was WITH God became Jesus when he came in the flesh?
Is love WITH God and did love come in the flesh?
WHY not just believe what JESUS SAID? “The Father is “IN” ME, and again, “THE WORDS I AM TELLING YOU ARE “NOT” MY WORDS, BUT THE WORDS OF HIM THAT SENT ME” . How could Jesus be the WORD, when he said, the words were not his words?
Who is denying that the Father was not in Jesus Christ? No one, so don’t mention it as it only brings confusion.
As for the part about words etc. Are you not aware that there are attributes and persons who are often named after attributes. This is why Jesus renamed some of the apostles. Jesus also said he was the Truth, truth personified. He was not declaring that he was an attribute.
Logos is an attribute of God and we read that the Logos was also WITH God, obviously next to him. The second century apostles had much to say regarding the logos. Their view was that the Word that was with God was the first work of the Father. From there, God created all through the Word. The Word became flesh for our sake, and we call him Jesus Christ.
He has now returned to the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos. These are not my words, but scripture. He is back with God in the same way that the Logos was WITH God in the beginning.
Has it ever dawned on you that the best one that God could have sent to redeem creation was the very one that he made the cosmos through? That is the most powerful redemption possible. Whereas your view is God whipped up a human being 2000 years ago and sent him to the cross to die for us.
t8,
Jesus is Love in the flesh and so are his fully mature student-adherents.
As far as I know it is a mainstream teaching.
True love in the flesh
Christ defines true love. If Christ has not come in the flesh, if he walks two feet above the dirt and sin of life, then his love also operates two feet above the rest of humanity. In the end, to deny Jesus has come in the flesh is to defeat true love — loving one another and even one’s enemies as Christ has loved us.
— Alfred PoirierThe Peacemaking Pastor(Grand Rapids, Mi.: Baker Books, 2006), 23
t8,
Love is with God because God is Love.
Philo, a Jew of John’s, time taught that the Logos is the image of God.
John’s words that the “Logos is God” paraphrases the same idea.
Some Trinitarians admit that it means the Logos has the qualities of God but they cite those qualities that support their preconceived ideas.
Jesus Christ is a being as is God but the Word did not have the characteristic of existing as a being before Jesus was conceived in Mary.
Please explain how and why the Word was WITH God.
Please explain how the world was made through him yet did not recognise him when he appeared to them.
Please explain why he is called “The Word of God” yet wasn’t that particular Word of God that was WITH God in the beginning (even though we are told that Jesus too was in the beginning).
Please explain why it is written that God made all things through him and for him with no reference to the Word in those particular verses.
Lots of explaining to do Kerwin.
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