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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2014,10:42) Now Mike tell us are these also just “play on words” or are they “EVIDENCE” given by GOD and if God did them then for what reason would he, if not to Build “FAITH” in those who saw them, by way of “EVIDENCE” .
The signs and miracles you listed were clear EVIDENCE, Gene. Human beings could see these things with their own eyes, and touch them with their own hands.These pieces of real evidence helped to bolster people's faith that Jesus was the Messiah, that there would be a resurrection, and that the godly would be granted eternal life.
See the difference? It didn't take “faith” to believe a formerly blind man regained sight – because they SAW it with their own eyes. They saw EVIDENCE of it, so it didn't require any FAITH to believe it.
Faith, on the other hand, is the belief in something for which we HAVEN'T seen the evidence.
Your post merely listed some signs and wonders which people DID have evidence of, and was therefore not a good response for what I said.
I'm not sure why Ed has a tile, or if he should have a tile because of a belief, but regarding the interesting and somewhat related conversation in the semi private thread about a kangaroo court, Ed said:
A. Neither the Greek, nor the Hebrew has “indefinite articles”
So Jesus could not have said ‘one of you is A devil’
B. And likewise none of the 12 Greek definite articles were used,
So Jesus equally could not have said ‘one of you is THE devil’
C. Therefore: “Jesus was NOT calling Judas 'the devil' nor was Jesus even calling Judas 'a devil'”
is a true statement, even though you may yet consider it wrong.Ed, of course Jesus didn't say those words because those are English words. The question is what did he mean. As you know indefinite articles don't exist in Greek but surely that meaning is sometimes conveyed. If he did not use a definite article “the” it is likely that he meant he was “a devil,” and doesn't the word that is often translated “devil” just as easily mean slanderer/liar, or something like that?
Instead of saying Jesus was not calling…., we should say Jesus was not meaning….
Don't want to take this topic off course but I'm not allowed to mention this in the other thread. And no one anywhere wants to talk about or acknowledge the existence of slavery so I am left with this.
Mike………..You failed to answer, for what reason they were done? There is no scripture that say Faith is a supposition of reason of man own mind as you false believe. Without EVIDENCE from God, you simply have NO PERSONAL FAITH, that God is present in your life , there is nothing God does with out giving EVIDENCE for the PURPOSE of BUILDING FAITH and TRUST IN HIM, again I say NOTHING.
The apostles, Jesus , and all Saint's did not do the thing they did without this, “HARD EVIDENCES” in them and their lives or they simply could not have done them. Why because all thing work by Faith, FAITH is the FUEL NEED to endure. I tis what was in the Vessels of the ten virgins, they had it and were able to go into the wedding feast , while the foolish did not have it and were not able to make it into the weeding feast.
To him who has the ears let him hear.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene
Quote (david @ Mar. 23 2014,11:17) Don't want to take this topic off course but I'm not allowed to mention this in the other thread. And no one anywhere wants to talk about or acknowledge the existence of slavery so I am left with this.
No one wants to talk about slavery with you, so you thought you'd bring a big post about Ed's kangaroo court thread to the middle of this discussion?
Why not jump into the discussion(s) we're actually having in this thread right now instead?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2014,11:19) Mike………..You failed to answer, for what reason they were done? There is no scripture that say Faith is a supposition of reason of man own mind as you false believe.
I told you the signs were done to BOLSTER people's faith, Gene.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2014,11:19) Without EVIDENCE from God, you simply have NO PERSONAL FAITH, that God is present in your life ………….
You are missing the point, Gene. “Faith”, by very definition, is the belief in something WITHOUT hard evidence of that thing.But I have better things to do with my time than discuss this with you. Believe what you want to believe.
Or, you could weigh in on whether or not the flesh being Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God AND the son of Mary.
Or you could help Gene to understand that “faith”, by its very definition, is the belief in something WITHOUT evidence.
Oh, and we are also ALWAYS discussing the Trinity, on this thread as well as on every thread – as you already know.
So you can give your opinion/knowledge on that in this thread.
(Btw, you are welcome to comment in the kangaroo court thread. It is in the Hot Seat section, but it is open to all.)
We have been round and round on these things. 1200 pages in this thread. 150,000 pages all together on John 1:1 probably.
My belief is that its pointless to start with John 1:1 because depending on belief it can go either way. And it's impossible to prove otherwise. Otherwise we would have done so.
That we can spend tens of thousands of pages discussion john 1:1C, is interesting. What is interesting is that even if proven one way or the other it wouldn't change a lot. It wouldn't change people's beliefs.
Belief persistence, confirmation bias, and 40 other mental shortcuts that betray us will have us see as we want to see.
On the other hand, gigantic topics like forced labour and ownership of said labor and the treatment of said labour lasted for thousands of years, and continues today, and should still be going on as I understand, and has touched all cultures.
And yet.
Silence.
I have a theory. Because John 1:1c can be argued both ways so easily it is. And when we focus on our own beliefs which we can justify its easy to continue on with that justifiable conversation. But with more emotional subjects, ones where there seems to be only one side, we use those same faulty mental short cuts to justify closing our minds to those things.
John 1:1c. Should be the very very last scripture a person who is studying the trinity should look at. After you are sure there is or isn't a trinity, then look at John 1:1c. And translate it accordingly.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2014,04:47) Or, you could weigh in on whether or not the flesh being Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God AND the son of Mary. Or you could help Gene to understand that “faith”, by its very definition, is the belief in something WITHOUT evidence.
For simplicity sake I've started referring faith (and also conscience) as belief or beliefs.It doesn't quite fit but helps with understanding a lot of things.
MIKE
you have faith in god.
Would you say you have this faith with no evidence?
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 23 2014,13:19) It's worth the time to learn and watch,rather than chattering.
Wakeup,Not that I am aware of. I read a lot and book have no personal interrelationship and are open to interpretation. The author can be, and often is, full of nonsense. They do not challenge my believes as much as debate does. There is no cross examining them. A poor substitute for debate and that is the written word. A video is much worse as I can go at my own speed in reading.
Mike,
Quote You are correct: Jesus, as a flesh human being, was the product of BOTH Mary and Jehovah. When did you arrive at this new belief?
Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 23 2014,10:05) Quote Journey, Basically Jesus would be equivalent to being Mary's monozygotic twin that had a mutation changing one of his x chromosomes to a y and being conceived from one of her adult cells.
God is after all a technician beyond compare.
None of his non-existent dna was required for the miracle of Jesus' conception as Jesus was 100% made from the Seed of David. Mary being that Seed.
The AV of the KJV teaches that Jesus was made from the seed of David as of the flesh in Roman 1:3 and made of a woman in Galatians 4:4.
Hi KerwinThank you for that. This is just getting too technical.
Yes, Jesus was from the Seed of David from his mothers side, but his mothers egg had to be fertilized to produce this child.
Jesus also came out of his Father. Else he would not be the Son.
Journey,My point is that with identical twins there is no fertilization required sin one twin splits off from its parent twin. The only thing is a complex mutation is necessary in order for the child twin to become male instead female in gender. God already performed a similar miracle when Eve was conceived of the virgin Adam.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2014,22:58) See the difference? It didn't take “faith” to believe a formerly blind man regained sight – because they SAW it with their own eyes. They saw EVIDENCE of it, so it didn't require any FAITH to believe it. Faith, on the other hand, is the belief in something for which we HAVEN'T seen the evidence.
Mike,Jesus did not say that because people saw a miracle he performed they no longer had faith instead when certain mean broke through the roof to bring their friend before a miracle worker he say their faith and told the man who was sick, “your sins are forgiven”.
Gene,
Mike is both right and wrong. Faith itself is evidence. To Abraham God's word alone was enough evidence because he had faith in it. Even then I do not believed that God's word was true based on blind faith but he had evidence that it was true in other ways.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 22 2014,08:34) Quote (jammin @ Mar. 21 2014,07:52) not god but God!
jammin,You keep saying the same thing over and over – but you saying it doesn't make it scripturally accurate, or true.
YOU YOURSELF told me that Jesus had limitations on earth. So, is that your way of ADMITTING that Jesus was NOT God on earth? YES or NO?
And I pointed out to you that Jesus STILL has limitations in heaven, even after he has been exalted by his and our God, Jehovah. (He is in heaven waiting for his God to place his enemies at his feet, right?)
So do you ACKNOWLEDGE that Jesus STILL has limitations – and is therefore not “God”? YES or NO?
And finally, I will remind you that there is only ONE Almighty Creator of all things. Jesus either IS that Creator, or he is the SON OF that Creator. He CAN'T be both. So which one does the SCRIPTURES tell us Jesus is?
if you will ask me about the HUMAN nature of Christ, then my answer is yes.Jesus created the heavns and earth
Hebrews 1:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 He also says,“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.unless you dont want to accept that verse then you have to make your own heb 1.10 hahahah
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 22 2014,07:33) Quote (jammin @ Mar. 22 2014,01:00) wakeup, Jesus is God just like his father. they have the same nature, GOd.
a very good example is you and yoru father. you are both HUMAN. you and your father have the same nature, HUMAN.
Jammin.1.Is the Word of God His Word,or God Himself?
2.Is the Holy Spirit God's Spirit,or God Himself?
3.Is love of God;God's love, or God Himself?
4.Is wisdom God's wisdom, or God Himself?
5.Christ in us;does it make us Christ?wakeup.
john 1.1 the Word of God is a title of Christ. it's a word coming out from the mouth of God (father).rev 19.13 told us that this is a name or title of Christ.
the Word of God (Christ) is God by nature. (john 1.1).he is just like his father. The son is God just like his father.
ed,
Philippians 2:6-7
New International Version (NIV)
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.do you understand that?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2014,13:10) Gene, Mike is both right and wrong. Faith itself is evidence. To Abraham God's word alone was enough evidence because he had faith in it. Even then I do not believed that God's word was true based on blind faith but he had evidence that it was true in other ways.
Kerwin………………… The current dictionary is “ABRIDGED” which mean the word meanings have changed over time from the original, if you can find an original dictionary it should back up what scripture says Faith “IS”.If God were to talk to you in an audible way, that alone is EVIDENCE of the unseen GOD. Mike is wrong completely, Paul gives us the correct definition what the word Faith means. Mike is the one who does a play on the words here , not the apostle Paul, as Mike does many other scriptures. Like John 1:1 and on and on it goes. We are told clearly,
Faith “IS” the Substance of things hoped for, THE “EVIDENCE” of thing not seen.
Moses became a servant of God AFTER he got his EVIDENCE, You must put God to the test , in order to get your real evidence or proof of the invisible God, This has been lost today, as people simply believe suppositions like Mike and call it their faith. God is a God of PROOF, and tell us, with word like “prove me herewith, and see if i will not open the heaven and pour out blessing on you”. Some like Giddion had to have God perform several miracles before he would believe, he need more evidence, even though God has spoken to him, God was with him and understood and gave him his proof he needed to be convinced, God is a GOD of PROOF.
This real Faith is what you must have in order to have your fuel that will continue to drive you into the wedding feast, The foolish who have only a little will not be able to enter and will be turned away when the time comes. IMO
Jesus said When the Son of Man return will he find “FAITH” on the earth. Men are not being tuned to their reality of God in their own lives, but unto worldly chatter from carnal minds which produce NO PROOF or EVIDENCE of GOD in their lives juts chatter is all. In fact that is why you don't see hardly any big performed MIRACLES today, it is because of lack of TRUE FAITH. It is not because God would not do them , it because Men do not have the Faith to move God to do them. IMO
Jesus told us the his true believers would do more works then he did, because he was leaving the world going to the Father, Please show me where that is at today, and why? is it not because of the lack of TRUE FAITH? Human reasoning is futile it produces nothing but arguments and bickering, it does not advance Faith but on the contrary it destroy's it.
Those who have been given the Spirit of Truth, Know the Truth when they hear it, all others are simply not of Christ. But a person who thinks he can have Faith without hard evidence is a fool and will fall for anything, I have learned to never base my Faith on what men or religious organisations say, but my OWN “HARD” EVIDENCE that God has Given ME, it is sufficient for me.
peace and love to you and your………………………gene
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