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Quote Kerwin, What if it said, “and the Word was Abraham Lincoln”?
Would you believe that the Word actually WAS Abraham Lincoln – as was clearly stated? Or would you pretend that the words, and the Word WAS Abraham Lincoln” only meant that the word “wore a top hat like Abraham Lincoln”?
I think for this analogy it would be better to replace Abraham Lincoln with “man.”
And, to imagine a scenario where there is on man who is the manliest man one very way, the very definition of man, so much that he is president of the world. So, we have the man. And we also have other men.
So if we now say: the word was man, or even the word was a man, either way, it's not tremendously clear that the word was “the” man.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,10:41) Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2013,04:48) Quote A certain scholar has recently advanced the hypothesis that the indefinite article as used in John 1:1 on this Coptic language translation has a “qualitative meaning” as if saying the word was a (one) theos. –kerwin
Was it WJ?
He's not really a scholar. 🙂
So, the father is “God” and the word is “a one god,” according to the scholar. Ok.
David,I quoted the relevant part of Wikipedia that gave the scholars' name and a summary of their opinion. Their names are Brian J. Wright and Tim Ricchuiti .
Hey kerwin. What specifically did you Wikipedia to find it. I've checked a couple articles.Quote (jammin @ Nov. 21 2013,07:54) kerwin, ill repeat what i said. the version said the Word was God.
the version also said the Word was divine BUT NO VERSION SAYS GOD IS LIKE HIS WORD IN JOHN1.1you said GOD is like his word. now im asking you where can you find that in john 1.1.
we are now at page 1047 but i still get no answer from you boy
Jammin,Any version that can be interpreted to be true will do if you understand the truth.
So do you believe both God and his word are divine.
Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2013,08:27) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,10:41) Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2013,04:48) Quote A certain scholar has recently advanced the hypothesis that the indefinite article as used in John 1:1 on this Coptic language translation has a “qualitative meaning” as if saying the word was a (one) theos. –kerwin
Was it WJ?
He's not really a scholar. 🙂
So, the father is “God” and the word is “a one god,” according to the scholar. Ok.
David,I quoted the relevant part of Wikipedia that gave the scholars' name and a summary of their opinion. Their names are Brian J. Wright and Tim Ricchuiti .
Hey kerwin. What specifically did you Wikipedia to find it. I've checked a couple articles.
David,Quote In a recent issue of The Journal of Theological Studies Brian J. Wright and Tim Ricchuiti[24] reason that the indefinite article in the Coptic translation, of John 1:1, has a qualitative meaning. Many such occurrences for qualitative nouns are identified in the Coptic New Testament, including 1 John 1:5 and 1 John 4:8. Moreover the indefinite article is used to refer to God in Deuteronomy 4:31 and Malachi 2:10. It is in the grammar section of wikipedia's entry for John 1:1.
David,
I found this quote on a forum and if a true quote then those scholars are not really saying anything different than can be derived by the translations of some.
Quote “We propose that the best way to take the indefinite article in John 1:1c is as an attempt by the Copts to interpret the anarthrous θε?ς descriptively/qualitatively. As a result, they interpreted and translated John 1.1c to mean that ‘the Word' possesses the same qualities as ‘the God of the Bible'.” My source: Jehovah-Witness.net
Quote (jammin @ Nov. 21 2013,07:49) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 20 2013,15:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 20 2013,06:17) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2013,15:24) Jammin, I already did as you requested and you have failed to prove that the clause “the word is God” does not mean the word and God share the characteristic of being divine.
Kerwin,What if it said, “and the Word was Abraham Lincoln”?
Would you believe that the Word actually WAS Abraham Lincoln – as was clearly stated? Or would you pretend that the words, and the Word WAS Abraham Lincoln” only meant that the word “wore a top hat like Abraham Lincoln”?
Because that's what you're doing here. You're PRETENDING that “x WAS y” really means “x WAS LIKE y”, right? As if the word “WAS” really means “WAS LIKE”, or “SHARED ATTRIBUTES WITH”, right?
Perhaps you could show an example where someone is said to BE a particular entity, but it really means that they are merely LIKE that other entity.
Jammin,This is a conversation with Jammin because of his lack of communication skills. I actually discovered something after I started the conversation with him but he just doesn't advance the conversation to where I feel it is a good time to cover it. I do cover it with Pierre.
The hypothesis I was working on is that saying the word is God is similar to saying that God is love with the difference being that instead of meaning God is the attribute of the word, it means God and the word share the same attribute; that of being divine. I get the divine from the fact that Koine Greek calls things that belong to God, God and the translation that is rendered the “the word is divine”
What I discovered due to inspiration from God using conversation with Pierre is that all that is useless conversation since it adds nothing to the conversation but satisfying my own curiosity about Koine Greek.
The bottom line is that experts already agree that one meaning of theos is:
Quote refers to the things of God
his counsels, interests, things due to himwhatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
The why it means this is not necessary to know and so is academic.
Jammin is at a point when he has not answered the question whether both God and his word are both divine which is what I am waiting for him to do. He even seemed to deny that they are both divine at one point. I think it was a reaction and not something he thought through so I am waiting for his answer to my question to see what he really meant.
I covered some of this in my conversation with him already.
Note: theos
im still waiting for the version kerwin.
im not asking for your explanation
Jammin,Feel free to read my explanation instead of choosing to read the explanations of those that tell your itching ears what they want to hear.
As to the one I gave to Mike it includes my confession that I got carried away with useless investigation instead of sticking to the bottom line.
The translation the word is divine is all I need because even you should know God's utterance is divine.
I am not here to tell you what your itching ears want to hear.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,08:59) David, I found this quote on a forum and if a true quote then those scholars are not really saying anything different than can be derived by the translations of some.
Quote “We propose that the best way to take the indefinite article in John 1:1c is as an attempt by the Copts to interpret the anarthrous θε?ς descriptively/qualitatively. As a result, they interpreted and translated John 1.1c to mean that ‘the Word' possesses the same qualities as ‘the God of the Bible'.” My source: Jehovah-Witness.net
KWould not this interpretation fit nicely with what Paul says in Clo:1:15-21 were he says that he his the image of God his father ,
I think so,
T,
Yes, I agree that God's utterances is the image of God and Jesus is the result of the that utterance made flesh.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,12:21) T, Yes, I agree that God's utterances is the image of God and Jesus is the result of the that utterance made flesh.
KWhat you mean Utterances
K
Could you explain to me ,how can words,expressions,ect
Can be the image of God Jehovah
Because that would mean that God himself his :a word,an expression,A discourse ,A declaration,A observation ect is that the real God of the Bible that was Paul explaining to the Clossians
And is that the description of the God of Abraham,Issac and Jacobs
Could you show me that it is so I like you to answer me honestly
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,12:41) T, The knowledge and wisdom of God.
KBut utterance does not stand for wisdom of God and so his the knowledge of God,
If you say it does then you have to accept that foolishness ,and men wisdom also his utterances,and so annulled all ,
So the word utterance is just a word meaning words ,that are expressed ,
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,12:41) T, The knowledge and wisdom of God.
KNow we know that utterance means words that are said !
And we know that the wisdom and knowledge of God the creator DO NOT HAVE TO BE SAID :
Just like you watch a chess game championship ,NO ONE TALKS NO ONE MOVES but the knowledge and wisdom of them both is active at is best ,
So no utterance there right
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 21 2013,17:55) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,12:41) T, The knowledge and wisdom of God.
KNow we know that utterance means words that are said !
And we know that the wisdom and knowledge of God the creator DO NOT HAVE TO BE SAID :
Just like you watch a chess game championship ,NO ONE TALKS NO ONE MOVES but the knowledge and wisdom of them both is active at is best ,
So no utterance there right
T.You dont know God,its so obvious.
Genesis 1:3 ***And God said***,
Let there be light: and there was light.Genesis 1:6 ***And God said***,
Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.wakeup.
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 21 2013,07:27) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 21 2013,02:05) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 18 2013,06:25) Marty Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.who is it that John talks about
(both Johns )
Hi Pierre:It is not the Word that dwelt among us in that scripture. The Word or Logos of God was made flesh or a human being, and it was him that dwelt among us, and it was at his ministry that we beheld him as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth.
I also will post the following scriptures which may help in understanding John 1:
Quote
Eph 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Quote
Eph 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Love in Christ,
Marty
Martyso THE WORD ” IS JESUS CHRIST ACCORDING TO ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES ;RIGHT
No, He is not the Word, but the Word was spoken through him. The flesh or the body is not the Word. It is what is done in the body that defines who the person is. He obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross, and God spoke to humanity through him by that same Word.Quote Hbr 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 21 2013,08:12) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 20 2013,14:05) Hi Pierre: It is not the Word that dwelt among us in that scripture. The Word or Logos of God was made flesh or a human being, and it was him that dwelt among us…………
In Marty's eagerness to ensure that the Word isn't Jesus, he must read 1:14 as follows:The Word became [in] flesh, and [the flesh person the Word came to be in] dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten.
Unfortunately for his imagined doctrine, none of those bracketed words are actually in John 1:14.
Pierre, we can only lead the horses to water. We can't force them to drink it.'
Marty, if 1:14 starts off identifying the subject as “The Word”, and then doesn't change subjects, but uses personal pronouns like “his” to keep referring to the same subject – then the whole verse is about “The Word”.
In fact, “The Word” continues to be the subject of John's teaching until verse 17 – where that same Word is identified as “Jesus Christ”.
Hi Mike:That is right, none of the bracketed words are in the scriptures, and that is not what I said.
The scripture states that “the Word was made flesh”, and so not now it is not “the Word” but the flesh or the human being that dwells among us at that point. The Word or Logos is that which God has spoken and it pertains to Jesus coming in the flesh.
Quote
Jhn 1:17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
God spoke to humanity through that human being in his ministry on earth.
Quote
Jhn 12:45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Jhn 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Jhn 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Jhn 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jhn 12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jhn 12:50
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Love in Christ,
Martyterraricca,Nov. wrote:[/quote]
Quote men his flesh ,and soul ;the fact that he as to breath through his nostrils this is the way he was created just like all the mammals , Terraricca,
WRONG!
MAN WAS CREATED IN THE IMAGE GOD , NOT LIKE ALL MAMMALS
HE NEVER HAD FLESH AND BLOOD!
SIN TRANSFORMED HIM INTO A FLESH AND BLOOD MAMMAL! SATAN’S ABODE! AND BECAME THE WORST, AND THE MOST FILTHY MAMMAL FROM BIRTH!
EVEN A CHIC IS MORE HONOURED THEN MAN ON BIRTH!
SHE JUMPS, WITH JOY!
MAN CANNOT EVEN STAND UP!
SHE SINGS WITH JOY!
MAN CRIES WITH DISAPPOINTMENT!
SHE IS FULLY CLOTHED!
MAN IS FULLY NAKED, AND DIRTY!
TODAY A CHIC IS MORE OF A VALUE IN HER MOTHER’S BELLY THEN MAN IS!
HE IS GOD’S IMAGE ONLY BECAUSE GOD BECAME MAN!
IN JESUS CHRIST!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
terraricca,Nov. wrote:[/quote]
Quote all those questions are totally irrelevant to know or to understand for the truth of God being understood Terraricca,
THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY OUT!
CHANGE YOUR PERSPECTIVE REGARDING JESUS CHRIST!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote
Quote
In a recent issue of The Journal of Theological Studies Brian J. Wright and Tim Ricchuiti[24] reason that the indefinite article in the Coptic translation, of John 1:1, has a qualitative meaning. Many such occurrences for qualitative nouns are identified in the Coptic New Testament, including 1 John 1:5 and 1 John 4:8. Moreover the indefinite article is used to refer to God in Deuteronomy 4:31 and Malachi 2:10.DEUT 4:31
“for Jehovah thy God is a merciful God; he will not fail thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.”Don't most bibles have an indefinite article to refer to god in DEUT 4:31? Malachi 2:10 asks: “has not one God created us?” Again, it's descriptive. Both DEUT and Malachi are places where it's understandable to have an “a” in Coptic or Even English.
I fail to see the point of mentioning that the Coptic has an indefinite article in these two places.
Quote (942767 @ Nov. 21 2013,20:52) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 21 2013,07:27) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 21 2013,02:05) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 18 2013,06:25) Marty Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.who is it that John talks about
(both Johns )
Hi Pierre:It is not the Word that dwelt among us in that scripture. The Word or Logos of God was made flesh or a human being, and it was him that dwelt among us, and it was at his ministry that we beheld him as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth.
I also will post the following scriptures which may help in understanding John 1:
Quote
Eph 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Quote
Eph 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Love in Christ,
Marty
Martyso THE WORD ” IS JESUS CHRIST ACCORDING TO ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES ;RIGHT
No, He is not the Word, but the Word was spoken through him. The flesh or the body is not the Word. It is what is done in the body that defines who the person is. He obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross, and God spoke to humanity through him by that same Word.Quote Hbr 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyQuote No, He is not the Word, but the Word was spoken through him. The flesh or the body is not the Word. It is what is done in the body that defines who the person is. He obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross, and God spoke to humanity through him by that same Word. Hbr 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Paul refers to the important in the difference between the time of the prophets and the last days in the time of Jesus the son of God ,
Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
now you think that the words that where said by the prophets is less important than the words that Christ said right
your are wrong ,you have mist the truth ,and I getting tire to say and show the scriptures to the truth of God ,over and over again ,it seems you do not understand the meaning of them.
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