JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 26 2013,21:17)

1. For the english speaking would be the early translations. Not the latter. 2. I find the kjv translation with no contradictions. 3. The latter translations is not the better,but the worse. Mans curruption is not getting better,but worse and worse.

1. That sounds like it makes perfect sense, Wakeup. But you're missing a vital part of the story. I agree that the earliest are better, because of less chance of man's manipulation. But it is the earliest GREEK mss that are better for that reason. And the fact is that even though the KJV is an early ENGLISH translation – it was translated from some of the OLDEST Greek mss………. the ones that had a bunch of man's manipulations.

Since the time of the KJV, we have uncovered a ton of much OLDER Greek mss – and the more recent English translations are made from the OLDER Greek mss. And like you said, the earlier, the better, right?

Did you know that part of the KJV had to be back-translated from the Vulgate because they didn't even have complete Greek mss when they translated it? So parts of the KJV didn't even come from any Greek ms.

2. I know you are a serious student of scripture, and are very knowledgeable in scriptural matters, but that statement is laughable. There are MANY flaws and contradictions in the KJV.

1 John 5:7 is a famous example of this. It has been PROVEN that the extra words in the KJV were a SCRIBAL MAGINAL NOTE added to a mss in the 14th century. Yet those words find their way into the actual text of the KJV – when they were never in any Greek text of old.

3. This is 50/50. It is true that modern Trinitarian translators do their best to force certain scriptures into teaching that Jesus is God. They play with the wording – much like Kerwin and Gene often do – to get their own personal preference realized.

But on the other hand, many of the most recent translations have scholars that realize we, as regular old people, now have internet access to the same Hebrew and Greek mss that they have access to. We have access to all the same lexicons and dictionaries. So they know they must proceed with caution from now on – because we all have the ability to catch them in their lies and call them out for being frauds.

I'm in Ezra right now in the NET Bible. And although this Bible was produced by 25 TRINITARIAN scholars, these same scholars, in their footnotes, shoot down about 85% of the usual Trinitarian “proof texts” – pointing out that they really don't say anything about Jesus being God.

So there's hope for the latter translations. I can only hope that the newer ones continue on with this practice.

[942767]

HI Mike:

None of the scriptures that you posted that Jesus name is called “the Word of God” in John 1, and in fact he was not called Jesus until he was born into this world.

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Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

 Okay Marty.  But did you notice that EVERYTHING said about “the Word” in John 1 is also said in scripture about “Jesus”?  Because that is what I thought you would see from my post.

Marty, consider the last words of 1:14……. “full of grace and truth”.  Now consider the exact moment in John 1 where John stops calling this person “the Word” and starts calling him “Jesus”.  (Follow the words “grace” and “truth”):

16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace……..

At this point, “the Word” is still the subject of the teaching, and the name “Jesus” has not yet been written.  So at this point, we know that grace came to us through “the Word”.  

DO YOU AGREE SO FAR?  YES or NO?

Now watch:

17 ……grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Do you agree that verse 16 says grace came from “the Word”?  YES or NO?

And do you agree that verse 17 says grace came from “Jesus Christ”?  YES or NO?

Now look back to verse 14:  We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Verse 14 is written about the one that had so far only been identified as “the Word”.  Do you agree?  And this “Word” came FROM the Father, full of grace and truth.  Do you agree?

1.  Is the Word actually the Father Himself?  Or did the Word come FROM the Father?  Which one?

2.  Are you able to see that “grace and truth” came from the Word?  And are you able to see that “grace and truth” came from Jesus Christ?

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 27 2013,23:00)

HI Mike: None of the scriptures that you posted that Jesus name is called “the Word of God” in John 1, and in fact he was not called Jesus until he was born into this world. Quote Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

think and think deep; NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD ,RIGHT YES ,WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEIR IS A GOD

YOU NEVER HEARD HIM NOR SEEN HIM ;

THE FACT THAT CHRIST CAME DOWN AND TOOK THE COVER OF FLESH WOULD THIS MAKE HIM LESS THAN THE “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ” WHY IS CHRIST CALLED THE “ONLY SON “OF GOD AND WE KNOW THEIR ARE MANY RIGHT

[942767]

Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 27 2013,05:44)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 27 2013,03:56) Wakeup…….You showed scripture that said, “No man has been to heaven but he that came down from heaven” right?. So according to that scripture Jesus was a “MAN” existing in Heaven “before” he came down from Heaven right? that is interesting because i thought you believe no flesh and blood person could inter into the Kingdom of God which is “IN” heaven.   peace and love……………………………………..gene Marty. This is where decerning the scriptures is important. *HE* that was made flesh,is also *HE* that was the WORD in spirit form. *HE* that was with God, and had glory together. Is also *HE* who dwelleth amongst men. wakeup.

It sounds to me that this is your opinion and that you cannot support this with scripture.

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Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,04:09)

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 27 2013,23:00) HI Mike: None of the scriptures that you posted that Jesus name is called “the Word of God” in John 1, and in fact he was not called Jesus until he was born into this world. Quote Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. Love in Christ, Marty Marty think and think deep; NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD ,RIGHT YES ,WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEIR IS A GOD YOU NEVER HEARD HIM NOR SEEN HIM ; THE FACT THAT CHRIST CAME DOWN AND TOOK THE COVER OF FLESH WOULD THIS MAKE HIM LESS THAN THE “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ” WHY IS CHRIST CALLED THE “ONLY SON “OF GOD AND WE KNOW THEIR ARE MANY RIGHT

These questions are not too hard for me, maybe for you.

The scriptures state that God is invisible, but Jesus stated:

Quote

Jhn 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

And so, now I have seen the Father through the works that He did through His Only Begotten Son

And yes, there are many sons now because of him, but we are sons by the spirit of adoption. He is the Only Son who has ever begotten by him in the womb of a woman.

All of humanity other than him were born of the sperm of man. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,03:56)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,11:28) Jammin, I already admitted “aspect” is the wrong word in English…….. In English the formula “x is a” can mean “a is an aspect of x”. So you admitted that “aspect” was the wrong word, and then showed a formula to support your use of this “wrong word”?

Mike,

I used “can mean” to denote that is a possibility.   I looked up aspect and decided it was the wrong English word to express the relationship I was describing and so not applicable to the case under discussion.  The hypothetically correct one is that an aspect of the word is like an aspect of God in that the word is divine and God is divine.  

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

All of humanity other than him were born of the sperm of man. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost.

scriptures do not say that ,

conceived by the holy spirit

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And so, now I have seen the Father through the works that He did through His Only Begotten Son

Jn 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jn 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
Jn 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
Jn 14:13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.
Jn 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jn 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Jn 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

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And yes, there are many sons now because of him, but we are sons by the spirit of adoption. He is the Only Son who has ever begotten by him in the womb of a woman.

Job 1:6 One day the sons of God , came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

I was talking about those that were and still sons of God ,not those that could become SONS OF GOD BY BEING AND STAYING FAITHFUL TO CHRIST AND HIS FATHER ;Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become(BECOME NOT INSTANT AND NEED DEEDS ) children of God—

Quote

He is the Only Son who has ever begotten by him in the womb of a womaN

THIS NEEDS TO BE PROVEN BY SCRIPTURES

Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

and THE WORD” are not the words of God because ,God has his own mouth to speak ;Isaiah;1;20 ……./For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,04:03)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,12:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2013,08:19) Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ? The lyrics is various Kitchen Utensils and surprise of all surprises all people but you seem to understand it.   Kerwin, Would you ever say the supersized words above?  At any time in your life, would you say them? I only saw ONE reply about your lyrics, and that was from 2B, who only said, “Funny”. So I'm not sure you can claim that “all people but me” understand your nonsense. Now, if those lyrics give us a VALID reason that people in the world WOULD say those supersized words above, then by all means, let's discuss each lyric, one at a time. If they don't, then you are wasting my time as you so often do. Come on, Man!

Mike,

I already gave evidence it is done in English and possibly Koine Greek so the issue is why it would be done in Koine Greek as the type of language use was translated to English because the English version is basically a word for word translation.  I do not have enough information to say why it is done.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,00:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,04:03) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,12:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2013,08:19) Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ? The lyrics is various Kitchen Utensils and surprise of all surprises all people but you seem to understand it.   Kerwin, Would you ever say the supersized words above?  At any time in your life, would you say them? I only saw ONE reply about your lyrics, and that was from 2B, who only said, “Funny”. So I'm not sure you can claim that “all people but me” understand your nonsense. Now, if those lyrics give us a VALID reason that people in the world WOULD say those supersized words above, then by all means, let's discuss each lyric, one at a time. If they don't, then you are wasting my time as you so often do. Come on, Man! Mike, I already gave evidence it is done in English and possibly Koine Greek so the issue is why it would be done in Koine Greek as the type of language use was translated to English because the English version is basically a word for word translation.  I do not have enough information to say why it is done.

k

you could have said nothing and look wiser

[kerwin]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,00:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,04:03) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,12:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2013,08:19) Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ? The lyrics is various Kitchen Utensils and surprise of all surprises all people but you seem to understand it.   Kerwin, Would you ever say the supersized words above?  At any time in your life, would you say them? I only saw ONE reply about your lyrics, and that was from 2B, who only said, “Funny”. So I'm not sure you can claim that “all people but me” understand your nonsense. Now, if those lyrics give us a VALID reason that people in the world WOULD say those supersized words above, then by all means, let's discuss each lyric, one at a time. If they don't, then you are wasting my time as you so often do. Come on, Man! Mike, I already gave evidence it is done in English and possibly Koine Greek so the issue is why it would be done in Koine Greek as the type of language use was translated to English because the English version is basically a word for word translation.  I do not have enough information to say why it is done.

Mike,

You are speaking of John 1:1 and so the answer is that is was done to emphasize the word and its relationship to God.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,00:49)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,00:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,04:03) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,12:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2013,08:19) Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ? The lyrics is various Kitchen Utensils and surprise of all surprises all people but you seem to understand it.   Kerwin, Would you ever say the supersized words above?  At any time in your life, would you say them? I only saw ONE reply about your lyrics, and that was from 2B, who only said, “Funny”. So I'm not sure you can claim that “all people but me” understand your nonsense. Now, if those lyrics give us a VALID reason that people in the world WOULD say those supersized words above, then by all means, let's discuss each lyric, one at a time. If they don't, then you are wasting my time as you so often do. Come on, Man! Mike, I already gave evidence it is done in English and possibly Koine Greek so the issue is why it would be done in Koine Greek as the type of language use was translated to English because the English version is basically a word for word translation.  I do not have enough information to say why it is done. k     you could have said nothing and look wiser

T,

Possibly, but my purpose is to learn by using conversation and other means.

[942767]

Hi Pierre:

I don't know what you are saying:  the scriptures do not say that.  Are you saying that the following scripture is wrong?

Quote

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Or are you saying that all other men were not born of the sperm of man?

Job 1:6 is speaking about angels, not men who have been born again, and have the power to become the sons of God through Jesus.

Quote

Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Hebrews 1 states that God has spoken to humanity in these last days by His Son, and Jesus said this:

Quote

Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

BUT THE EARTH REMAINED IN DARKNESS, DESPITE ALL THESE THINGS, UNTIL THE FOURTH DAY?

There was no night and day on earth and no source of light I know of until the fourth night and day of creation.  God worked on the earth on both the second and third day but nothing except the primary creation of it is mentioned is mentioned on the first day.

Quote

Are you saying God STARTED TO create the earth, then left that project to create the angels, and then came back and FINISHED the earth – at which time those recently created angels shouted for joy?  YES or NO?

No, heaven and earth were parallel creations though not not constructed in the same order.  Builders today can build more than one building at the same time so why not God.

Quote

2. a stone representing the nominal starting place in the construction of a monumental building, usually carved with the date and laid with appropriate ceremonies  (“Appropriate ceremonies” like morning stars singing and angels shouting for joy, perhaps?   )

The children of Israelites of that age are not Americans of this age.  I am going by Ezra 3:10.

Ezra 3:10
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the Lord, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.

Psalm 118:22
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused
is become the head stone of the corner.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 27 2013,02:26)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2013,01:41) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 26 2013,22:13) so it is not the WORDS OF THE MAN BUT THE ACTIONS OF THE MAN THAT SAVES BY BELIEVING IN IT ,RIGHT T, Yes, though words are also actions but both a man who says what is right but does not do it will not inherit the reign of God. k understand that in Christ it is HIS ACTION THAT SAVES US ,BUT TO US IT IS THE ACTION OF BELIEVING HIS WORDS THAT WILL OR CAN SAVE US ;

T,

Believing gives birth to the righteous works of the law because God does as he promises.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,03:06)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2013,18:58) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 24 2013,07:26) 2Co 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible. Paul was strong in his written words ,but apparently in real live he was a man of no stature ,(small,no real imposing his person,) T, I never looked at that passage like you.   2 Corinthians 10:1 NIV By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away!

Mike,

That is how I look at it but I believe the archaic wording of the AKJV led to T viewing it in a different way.

[terraricca]

marty

Quote

Job 1:6 is speaking about angels, not men who have been born again, and have the power to become the sons of God through Jesus.

look at the HEBREW ORIGINAL it says ” SONS OF GOD” I believe the original Hebrew version ;

KJV
Now there was a day
when the sons
of God
came
(8799) to present
(8692) themselves before the LORD
_, and Satan

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

I don't know what you are saying: the scriptures do not say that. Are you saying that the following scripture is wrong? Quote Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mt 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

Mt 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Mt 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:

Mt 1:23 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”—which means, “God with us.”

Lk 1:34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and THE POWER OF THE MOST HIGH WILL OVERSHADOW YOU. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

so my question to you is this ;

what or who his the HOLY SPIRIT

what or who his the POWER OF THE MOST HIGH

and what is the part they took in Christ birth

unless you answer those questions you have no inside ,but all those scriptures are the truth,

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

Hebrews 1 states that God has spoken to humanity in these last days by His Son, and Jesus said this:

the truth ,is that Christ give that work to his disciples and we are those that picked up their message what they have left for whoever want to hear it and act upon it ;

Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,……….

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,02:05)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,03:06) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2013,18:58) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 24 2013,07:26) 2Co 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible. Paul was strong in his written words ,but apparently in real live he was a man of no stature ,(small,no real imposing his person,) T, I never looked at that passage like you.   2 Corinthians 10:1 NIV By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away! Mike, That is how I look at it but I believe the archaic wording of the AKJV led to T viewing it in a different way.

k

no ,this is the way I see it as well ,

timid
ˈtɪmɪd/Submit
adjective
1.
showing a lack of courage or confidence; easily frightened.
“I was too timid to ask for what I wanted”
synonyms:easily frightened, lacking courage, fearful, apprehensive, afraid, frightened, scared, faint-hearted; More

but i still believe that Paul was not an imposing 6 feet 250 lbs good looking ,man either

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