JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25) A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one. Is it wise to base a teaching on hints? Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being. It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2. But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.) You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of. I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin. Believe what you want. Mike, Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already. The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order. Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed. In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make. k THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “ THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT , YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW , ADIÓS AMIGOS T, Do you not see what is there to see? Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”? k THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :     ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP T, Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God?

Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation

This is why he his the only begotten son of God ,

[jammin]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,14:11)

Quote (jammin @ Sep. 10 2013,09:02) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 06 2013,02:29) jammin Colossians 1:16 Click this icon to open a printer friendly page Context NET © for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1  whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him. NIV © For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. NASB © For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. NLT © Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see––kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him. MSG © For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels–[everything] got started in him and finds its purpose in him. BBE © For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him; NRSV © for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. NKJV © For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. KJV For by him were (0) all things created (5681)_, that are in heaven _, and that are in earth _, visible and invisible _, whether [they be] thrones _, or dominions _, or principalities _, or powers _: all things were created (5769) by him _, and for him _: NASB © For by Him all things were created , both in the heavens and on earth , visible and invisible , whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities –all things have been created through Him and for Him. GREEK oti CONJen PREPautw P-DSMektisyh (5681) V-API-3Sta T-NPNpanta A-NPNen PREPtoiv T-DPMouranoiv N-DPMkai CONJepi PREPthv T-GSFghv N-GSFta T-NPNorata A-NPNkai CONJta T-NPNaorata A-NPNeite CONJyronoi N-NPMeite CONJkuriothtev N-NPFeite CONJarcai N-NPFeite CONJexousiai N-NPFta T-NPNpanta A-NPNdi PREPautou P-GSMkai CONJeiv PREPauton P-ASMektistai (5769) V-RPI-3S NET © [draft] ITL for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible , whether thrones or dominions , whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him . NET © for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1  whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him. NET © Notes 1 tn BDAG 579 s.v. κυριότης 3 suggests “bearers of the ruling powers, dominions” here. Previous Verse Next Verse Previous Verse Next Verse many parts of scriptures have been altered ,some times only words ,and some times more ,but it is our responsibility before God to search him that love's  us ,if you do not ,you will pay the price of your refusal to act ;become a true believer is not read the bible and sit in a church and listen , it is so that the understanding does not come out of WORDS  but out of the spirit (understanding of the words meaning as a whole ) that is also spread out into the entire scriptures and you,we, anyone that love's God will look for ,not by the power of man ,but by letting God's spirit guide us through his  written word, he as the key ,no man as the key ; all true believers that love God and his son ,will receive a key from God made for them personally ,to fit them ,but will also open the same gate to all other true believers ,what i mean is very spiritual ,but is true ;   what do you want to tell me??? you dont understand that verse Colossians 1:16 Expanded Bible (EXB) 16 ·Through his power [L In him; or By him] all things were created [John 1:3; Heb. 1:2]—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all ·powers [or heavenly authorities; L thrones], ·authorities [dominions; kingdoms], ·lords [rulers], and ·rulers [authorities; C these four may refer to angelic hierarchies, or to earthly and heavenly rulers]. All things were created through Christ and for Christ. pls read this Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible For by him were all things created,…. This is a reason proving Christ to be before all creatures, to be the common Parent of them, and to have the government over them, since he is the Creator of them. another proof Colossians 1:16 Living Bible (TLB) 16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory. im not just making opinion.. im giving word for word in the bible. Jammin I going to tell nothing ;because i can not tell anything more than what is in the scriptures , all my knowledge and understanding starts and finishes in the scriptures ,with a ton of prayers , I think we do not belong or live into the same world , the best to you in your traveling ;were ever you may go

i understand…

[terraricca]

jammin

Quote

i understand…

I know you don't..

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,12:26)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25) A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one. Is it wise to base a teaching on hints? Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being. It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2. But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.) You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of. I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin. Believe what you want. Mike, Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already. The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order. Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed. In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make. k THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “ THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT , YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW , ADIÓS AMIGOS T, Do you not see what is there to see? Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”? k THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :     ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP T, Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God? Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation This is why he his the only begotten son of God ,

T,

You did not answer my question as far as I can tell. If you think you did then perhaps a yes, a no, or something of that type followed by your explanation would be more clear to me than what you wrote. Please try again. Thank you.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,23:30)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,12:26) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25) A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one. Is it wise to base a teaching on hints? Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being. It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2. But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.) You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of. I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin. Believe what you want. Mike, Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already. The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order. Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed. In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make. k THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “ THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT , YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW , ADIÓS AMIGOS T, Do you not see what is there to see? Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”? k THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :     ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP T, Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God? Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation This is why he his the only begotten son of God , T, You did not answer my question as far as I can tell.  If you think you did then perhaps a yes, a no, or something of that type followed by your explanation would be more clear to me than what you wrote.  Please try again.  Thank you.

K

i have answered you ,many time to those questions ,but you are what you are ;YOU CAN NOT COME TO GRIP WITH THE SCRIPTURES ,I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT ,

YOU HAVE TO FACE WHAT IS WRITTEN ,I HAVE ALREADY ACCEPTED WHAT IS WRITTEN YOU DO NOT ,SO YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH GOD ON THIS ONE ;BUT THE “YES OR NO “” WILL BE FROM YOUR MONTH NOT MINE ,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,22:05)

Mike, Do you believe God used the Holy Spirit to have sex with Mary in order to father Jesus?

No. Do you?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,22:09)

Mike, I hope to look at your other proofs when I am feeling less under the weather.

We have compiled about 50 of them in the “Pre-existent Database” thread.

It is not meant to be a discussion thread, so after you've had time to read those scriptures that speak of the pre-existence of Jesus, you and I can discuss them one at a time if you'd like.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,22:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,08:34) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:45) Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”? Of course Jesus couldn't have already existed in the form of a servant before taking on the form of a servant. He WAS existing in one form, but then emptied himself and took on a DIFFERENT form by being made in the likeness of a human being. And after being found in appearance as a human being, he humbled himself even further by becoming obedient to death. Mike, It seems you believe servant is a synonym of human in the statement “took on the form of a servant”.

The point is that the form in which Jesus was existing was a higher form than the one he EMPTIED HIMSELF to take on.

1.  Was existing in one form.
2.  EMPTIED HIMSELF by taking on a LOWER form by being made in the likeness of a human being.  (We know the latter form is the LOWER of the two forms, because he had to EMPTY HIMSELF to take on this latter form.)

I believe Jesus was always a servant of his God – even in the higher form.  But Paul is making a distinction between the higher form and the lower form, and so calls this lower form the form of a servant – even though Jesus was a servant of God in the higher form as well.

We know this because he didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2013,03:35)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,22:05) Mike, Do you believe God used the Holy Spirit to have sex with Mary in order to father Jesus? No.  Do you?

Mike,

Neither do I but I have heard that some teach that.

I do believe God made Jesus from a part of Mary and much like technicians are making human clones in this age. In addition he manipulate the genetic code so the child would be a male.

I am not sure of your belief as the last I knew you believe the the hypothetical preexistent Christ transformed into a human being at the conceptus stage of life. That doesn't sound like you believe God fathered Jesus at that time, directly or otherwise.

In short I do not know what you mean by directly fathered.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,23:38)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,23:30) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,12:26) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25) A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one. Is it wise to base a teaching on hints? Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being. It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2. But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.) You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of. I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin. Believe what you want. Mike, Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already. The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order. Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed. In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make. k THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “ THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT , YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW , ADIÓS AMIGOS T, Do you not see what is there to see? Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”? k THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :     ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP T, Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God? Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation This is why he his the only begotten son of God , T, You did not answer my question as far as I can tell.  If you think you did then perhaps a yes, a no, or something of that type followed by your explanation would be more clear to me than what you wrote.  Please try again.  Thank you. K i have answered you ,many time to those questions ,but you are what you are ;YOU CAN NOT COME TO GRIP WITH THE SCRIPTURES ,I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT , YOU HAVE TO FACE WHAT IS WRITTEN ,I HAVE ALREADY ACCEPTED WHAT IS WRITTEN YOU DO NOT ,SO YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH GOD ON THIS ONE ;BUT THE “YES  OR NO “” WILL BE FROM YOUR MONTH NOT MINE ,

T,

This is a point that I had not made previously. So you are dodging. Should we continue this conversation on the Hot Seat forum?

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2013,03:44)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,22:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,08:34) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:45) Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”? Of course Jesus couldn't have already existed in the form of a servant before taking on the form of a servant. He WAS existing in one form, but then emptied himself and took on a DIFFERENT form by being made in the likeness of a human being. And after being found in appearance as a human being, he humbled himself even further by becoming obedient to death. Mike, It seems you believe servant is a synonym of human in the statement “took on the form of a servant”. The point is that the form in which Jesus was existing was a higher form than the one he EMPTIED HIMSELF to take on. 1.  Was existing in one form. 2.  EMPTIED HIMSELF by taking on a LOWER form by being made in the likeness of a human being.  (We know the latter form is the LOWER of the two forms, because he had to EMPTY HIMSELF to take on this latter form.) I believe Jesus was always a servant of his God – even in the higher form.  But Paul is making a distinction between the higher form and the lower form, and so calls this lower form the form of a servant – even though Jesus was a servant of God in the higher form as well. We know this because he didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped.

Mike,

So Jesus did not actually take on the form of a servant as he was already one but lowered himself from the position of a high level servant to the position of a low level servant.

Is “form” talking of “physical” form or of mindset form?

Is the clause “being in very form God” also relative?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,16:00)

I am not sure of your belief as the last I knew you believe the the hypothetical preexistent Christ transformed into a human being at the conceptus stage of life. That doesn't sound like you believe God fathered Jesus at that time, directly or otherwise. In short I do not know what you mean by directly fathered.

My point was to Marty and Gene, who believe Jesus started life as a human being, who was exactly like us in every way.

I was pointing out to Marty that while all of us were begotten by human fathers, Jesus was directly fathered by God. In other words, we are all creations of God, but we come into being BY God, and THROUGH a human father. Jesus didn't have that “THROUGH a human father” part. He only had the “BY God” part.

Therefore, instead of being fathered by God THROUGH a human father, Jesus, unlike the rest of us, was fathered DIRECTLY by God.

As for the rest of your point, you already know that I believe Jesus' one and only Father caused him to exist before the ages. At a later time, that same one and only Father caused him to exist as a human being.

He did not BEGIN to exist more than one time. He BEGAN to exist only once – as a spirit being a long, long time ago. Then he took on a DIFFERENT form when he was born of Mary. He was born, died, and raised from the dead all in that second form. Later, that form was transformed back into his original spirit form as he ascended back to where he came from.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,04:03)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,23:38) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,23:30) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,12:26) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25) A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one. Is it wise to base a teaching on hints? Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being. It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2. But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.) You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of. I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin. Believe what you want. Mike, Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already. The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order. Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed. In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make. k THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “ THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT , YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW , ADIÓS AMIGOS T, Do you not see what is there to see? Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”? k THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :     ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP T, Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God? Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation This is why he his the only begotten son of God , T, You did not answer my question as far as I can tell.  If you think you did then perhaps a yes, a no, or something of that type followed by your explanation would be more clear to me than what you wrote.  Please try again.  Thank you. K i have answered you ,many time to those questions ,but you are what you are ;YOU CAN NOT COME TO GRIP WITH THE SCRIPTURES ,I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT , YOU HAVE TO FACE WHAT IS WRITTEN ,I HAVE ALREADY ACCEPTED WHAT IS WRITTEN YOU DO NOT ,SO YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH GOD ON THIS ONE ;BUT THE “YES  OR NO “” WILL BE FROM YOUR MONTH NOT MINE , T, This is a point that I had not made previously.  So you are dodging.  Should we continue this conversation on the Hot Seat forum?

K

you are dogging the scriptures for months

Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

what is it that scriptures are saying ;OPEN YOUR EYES AND BELIEVE ;BUT YOU CAN NOT DO THAT WHY ?? EGO ?

[kerwin]

Mike,

So you meant that in the current generation, Jesus had only a mother of the flesh and not a father.

That is true according to what I have learned as well.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,04:50)

Mike, So you meant that in the current generation, Jesus had only a mother of the flesh and not a father. That is true according to what I have learned as well.

K

THIS IS WHY MARY IS THE SURROGATE MOTHER OF THE SON OF GOD ,AND JESUS WAS MADE TOTALLY SINLESS WITH OUT ANY OF ADAM CURSE ,OF THE SIN ,AND SO COULD SAVE ALL MEN ,BECAUSE HIS OFFERING OF HIS SACRIFICE WAS A BETTER ONE ,AND NO MEN BORN OF MEN ,MALE OR FEMALE COULD NOT GIVE THIS PERFECT GIFT ,THIS IS WHY IT SAYS ;

GOD LOVE THE WORLD SO MUCH THAT HE OFFERED HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO SAVE IT ,

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 11 2013,04:49)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,04:03) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,23:38) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,23:30) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,12:26) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25) A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one. Is it wise to base a teaching on hints? Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being. It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2. But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.) You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of. I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin. Believe what you want. Mike, Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already. The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order. Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed. In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make. k THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “ THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT , YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW , ADIÓS AMIGOS T, Do you not see what is there to see? Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”? k THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :     ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP T, Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God? Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation This is why he his the only begotten son of God , T, You did not answer my question as far as I can tell.  If you think you did then perhaps a yes, a no, or something of that type followed by your explanation would be more clear to me than what you wrote.  Please try again.  Thank you. K i have answered you ,many time to those questions ,but you are what you are ;YOU CAN NOT COME TO GRIP WITH THE SCRIPTURES ,I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT , YOU HAVE TO FACE WHAT IS WRITTEN ,I HAVE ALREADY ACCEPTED WHAT IS WRITTEN YOU DO NOT ,SO YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH GOD ON THIS ONE ;BUT THE “YES  OR NO “” WILL BE FROM YOUR MONTH NOT MINE , T, This is a point that I had not made previously.  So you are dodging.  Should we continue this conversation on the Hot Seat forum? K you are dogging the scriptures for months Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! what is it that scriptures are saying ;OPEN YOUR EYES AND BELIEVE ;BUT YOU CAN NOT DO THAT WHY ?? EGO ?

T,

I do not like taking people to the Hot Seat as it is a sign that communications have broken down and yet despite my threat to do so you have still not answered my question though I
have striven to be polite.

The baseless accusations you level are just a method to avoid what you do not want to talk about. It seems you have some deep based fear that provokes you to do so when you feel your philosophy is threatened. Where is your power to overcome?

Please answer the question though I most likely will not require you to do so on the Hot Seat.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,16:11)

Mike, So Jesus did not actually take on the form of a servant as he was already one but lowered himself from the position of a high level servant to the position of a low level servant.

Correct.  Maybe this will help:

2 Kings 24:1
During Jehoiakim’s reign, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon attacked.  Jehoiakim was his subject for three years, but then he rebelled against him.

We could make this statement about Jehoiakim:  He was existing in the form of the King of Israel, but for three years took on the form of a servant.

Here's the thing, though…………  The fact that Jehoiakim took on a lesser form of a servant by becoming subject to Nebuchadnezzar for three years doesn't mean that he wasn't already a servant to his own gods and his subjects BEFORE he took on that lower servant form.

Nor does it mean that he stopped being a king once he did take on the form of a servant.  

So don't try to read too much into it, Kerwin.  The point is that Jehoiakim was existing in a higher form, and then lowered himself by taking on the form of a servant to Nebuchadnezzar.  So while he may have already been SERVING others before Nebuchadnezzar, it is right to say “he took on the form of a servant” when Nebuchadnezzar took control of him.

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,16:11)

Is “form” talking of “physical” form or of mindset form?

The Greek word “morphe” means “outward appearance”.  The point is that Jesus was existing with an outward appearance like God's before emptying himself and taking on the outward appearance of a servant (lower form of being than the one he was having…….. as in “mighty spirit being” versus “human being”.)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,16:11)

Is the clause “being in very form God” also relative?

The Greek words are “who in form of God beginning”.  The “beginning” is often translated as “existing”.  Perhaps they should leave it as “beginning”, and it would end some confusion.  

Have in you the mind of Jesus, who, beginning in the form of God………

As for “form of God” being relative, I'd say yes. “Form of God” is a higher form than “form of a servant” – even though he could have been SERVING others before emptying himself and taking on that lesser form.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 11 2013,04:55)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,04:50) Mike, So you meant that in the current generation, Jesus had only a mother of the flesh and not a father. That is true according to what I have learned as well. K THIS IS WHY MARY IS THE SURROGATE MOTHER OF THE SON OF GOD ,AND JESUS WAS MADE TOTALLY SINLESS WITH OUT ANY OF ADAM CURSE ,OF THE SIN ,AND SO COULD SAVE ALL MEN ,BECAUSE HIS OFFERING OF HIS SACRIFICE WAS A BETTER ONE ,AND NO MEN BORN OF MEN ,MALE OR FEMALE COULD NOT GIVE THIS PERFECT GIFT ,THIS IS WHY IT SAYS ; GOD LOVE THE WORLD SO MUCH THAT HE OFFERED HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO SAVE IT ,

T,

Scripture does not say Mary is Jesus' surrogate mother. Instead it states he was conceived in her. Those things are at odds.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,16:50)

Mike, So you meant that in the current generation, Jesus had only a mother of the flesh and not a father. That is true according to what I have learned as well.

I don't know about “current generation”. Mary was the mother of Jesus' flesh, and Jesus no longer has flesh in heaven.

So during the second (birth as a human) and third (risen from death) stages of his existence, Jesus had a flesh mother, but not a flesh father.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,05:05)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 11 2013,04:55) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,04:50) Mike, So you meant that in the current generation, Jesus had only a mother of the flesh and not a father. That is true according to what I have learned as well. K THIS IS WHY MARY IS THE SURROGATE MOTHER OF THE SON OF GOD ,AND JESUS WAS MADE TOTALLY SINLESS WITH OUT ANY OF ADAM CURSE ,OF THE SIN ,AND SO COULD SAVE ALL MEN ,BECAUSE HIS OFFERING OF HIS SACRIFICE WAS A BETTER ONE ,AND NO MEN BORN OF MEN ,MALE OR FEMALE COULD NOT GIVE THIS PERFECT GIFT ,THIS IS WHY IT SAYS ; GOD LOVE THE WORLD SO MUCH THAT HE OFFERED HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO SAVE IT , T, Scripture does not say Mary is Jesus' surrogate mother.  Instead it states he was conceived in her.  Those things are at odds.

k

READ YOUR ENTIRE BIBLE AND SEE HOW ,ALL OF GODS ACTION IN THE LAW ,

IF IT IS ADD ODDS ,,YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR UNDERSTANDING JUST LIKE ANY SEARCHER THAT LOVE'S GOD

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