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Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2013,06:55) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2013,07:10) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2013,06:07) T, Quote but this could not be done through a man born of the flesh ,because no man can save another says scriptures from his own sins or others sins ,because all men are born short from God's glory ,THIS ARE FACTS ,so how could God save humanity and yet use the flesh You have the idea of a man saving humanity and the idea of God saving humanity by using a man. So does the impossibility of the first occurring mean the second cannot?
KERWINGod as said through all the prophets that he will bring forth an seed to Abraham then to David according to the flesh ,
the fact that he uses a surrogate mother does not make God a liar or does it
Christ made many miracle JUST TELL ME HOW HE DID THEM JUST ONE CAN YOU
T,Romans 1:3 clearly states Jesus flesh was made from the seed of David. Other places we are told he was conceived in Mary just as John the Baptist was conceived in Elizabeth. You do be believe John the Baptist was made from Elizabeth but you seem unable to believe Jesus was made from Mary.
kerwinyou can do what ever ,think what ever ,BUT cHRIST BIRTH AND CONCEPTION IS UNIQUE ,AND IN NO WAY SIMILAR TO ANY MAN WHAT O EVER WAS /IS BORN OF A WOMEN ,
MAN CAN DO EASYLY DO THE INTERVENTION FOR A SURROGATE MOTHER BUT IT SEEMS THAT gOD CAN NOT DO IT IN YOUR EYES
JUST BECAUSE TO YOU CHRIST HIS NOT THE SON OF GOD ONLY FROM HIS BAPTISM IN THE JOURDAIN AND SO YOU FIND EXPLANATION AND BREAK SCRIPTURES OR MAKE UP IN YOUR MIND WHAT YOU CAN NOT EXPLAIN,VERY CONVENIENT IN DEEDDoes Kerwin deny that Jesus is the son of God?
If so, then he needs to reconsider because it is antichrists who deny the Father and the son.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2013,06:55) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2013,07:10) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2013,06:07) T, Quote but this could not be done through a man born of the flesh ,because no man can save another says scriptures from his own sins or others sins ,because all men are born short from God's glory ,THIS ARE FACTS ,so how could God save humanity and yet use the flesh You have the idea of a man saving humanity and the idea of God saving humanity by using a man. So does the impossibility of the first occurring mean the second cannot?
KERWINGod as said through all the prophets that he will bring forth an seed to Abraham then to David according to the flesh ,
the fact that he uses a surrogate mother does not make God a liar or does it
Christ made many miracle JUST TELL ME HOW HE DID THEM JUST ONE CAN YOU
T,Romans 1:3 clearly states Jesus flesh was made from the seed of David. Other places we are told he was conceived in Mary just as John the Baptist was conceived in Elizabeth. You do be believe John the Baptist was made from Elizabeth but you seem unable to believe Jesus was made from Mary.
KRo 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:SO PAUL MAKES A DICTINCTION BETWEEN CHRIST FLESH BUT WE KNOW HIS FATHER WAS NOT JOSEPH YOU SAY BUT MARY BUT IT IS MEN RIGHT THAT GIVES THE SEED NOT WOMEN ,
WHAT IS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESSQuote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2013,07:09) Does Kerwin deny that Jesus is the son of God?
If so, then he needs to reconsider because it is antichrists who deny the Father and the son.
T8,Jesus is the Son of God, as of the Spirit.
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 11 2013,07:14) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2013,06:55) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2013,07:10) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2013,06:07) T, Quote but this could not be done through a man born of the flesh ,because no man can save another says scriptures from his own sins or others sins ,because all men are born short from God's glory ,THIS ARE FACTS ,so how could God save humanity and yet use the flesh You have the idea of a man saving humanity and the idea of God saving humanity by using a man. So does the impossibility of the first occurring mean the second cannot?
KERWINGod as said through all the prophets that he will bring forth an seed to Abraham then to David according to the flesh ,
the fact that he uses a surrogate mother does not make God a liar or does it
Christ made many miracle JUST TELL ME HOW HE DID THEM JUST ONE CAN YOU
T,Romans 1:3 clearly states Jesus flesh was made from the seed of David. Other places we are told he was conceived in Mary just as John the Baptist was conceived in Elizabeth. You do be believe John the Baptist was made from Elizabeth but you seem unable to believe Jesus was made from Mary.
KRo 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:SO PAUL MAKES A DICTINCTION BETWEEN CHRIST FLESH BUT WE KNOW HIS FATHER WAS NOT JOSEPH YOU SAY BUT MARY BUT IT IS MEN RIGHT THAT GIVES THE SEED NOT WOMEN ,
WHAT IS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS
T,Mary is the Seed of David just as Isaac is the Seed of Abraham, as for the flesh. Jesus was made of Mary and so became the Son of man, as of the flesh.
The Spirit formed the flesh of Jesus within Mary's womb and formed Jesus' spirit just as it forms the spirit of those that follow him so they also are conceived and born of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2013,22:10) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2013,16:07) That is complex though not worth debating as the bottom line is that Paul also speaks of his brethren according to the flesh.
It's not complex, but exactly what Paul taught in Romans 4.Kerwin, suffice to say that the NKJV has translated it correctly: What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
And since you aren't able to use Romans 4:1 as an “answer” to the following, it means they still need to be answered directly:
Agreed. Jesus, ACCORDING ONLY TO THE FLESH, was an offspring of David. So according to WHAT was Jesus the ROOT of David?
And why make the distinction in the first place? If there wasn't anything to Jesus except for the “ACCORDING TO THE FLESH Jesus”, then why mention it?
Mike,I do not see as the argument about the exact meaning of Romans 4 is important to the discussion as Romans 9:3 makes the same point I used to support my argument and that is the Jews are called Paul's brethren according to the flesh.
Romans 9:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Certain of these same Jews Jesus accused of also being the child of the devil.
We also know that believing Jews are the children of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2013,22:34) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2013,16:18) Mike, No, I cannot conceive of a sound and valid argument to support your teaching “that the Word being made flesh DIDN'T contradict the flesh being the seed of David”.
I realize that you can't conceive of it, Kerwin. That's why I've offered to painstakingly show it to you from the words of scripture.Are you interested? Or are you happier just standing firm in your own blindness, without even considering the scriptural things I can show you?
Mike,I will listen.
Mike,
Quote So according to WHAT was Jesus the ROOT of David? This is a different conversation. Root can mean any parent in a family tree and the Root means the most important one. Jesus had no children of his flesh but he is greater than even David.
Root is also any individual or sub-group in an overall group that teaches a doctrine. Jesus taught a fulfills the doctrine of the new covenant and is of the overall group of the family of David.
Jesus is also the root of David's faith as God promised a son of his flesh would sit on his throne forever and David believed.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2013,09:25) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 11 2013,07:14) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2013,06:55) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2013,07:10) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2013,06:07) T, Quote but this could not be done through a man born of the flesh ,because no man can save another says scriptures from his own sins or others sins ,because all men are born short from God's glory ,THIS ARE FACTS ,so how could God save humanity and yet use the flesh You have the idea of a man saving humanity and the idea of God saving humanity by using a man. So does the impossibility of the first occurring mean the second cannot?
KERWINGod as said through all the prophets that he will bring forth an seed to Abraham then to David according to the flesh ,
the fact that he uses a surrogate mother does not make God a liar or does it
Christ made many miracle JUST TELL ME HOW HE DID THEM JUST ONE CAN YOU
T,Romans 1:3 clearly states Jesus flesh was made from the seed of David. Other places we are told he was conceived in Mary just as John the Baptist was conceived in Elizabeth. You do be believe John the Baptist was made from Elizabeth but you seem unable to believe Jesus was made from Mary.
KRo 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:SO PAUL MAKES A DICTINCTION BETWEEN CHRIST FLESH BUT WE KNOW HIS FATHER WAS NOT JOSEPH YOU SAY BUT MARY BUT IT IS MEN RIGHT THAT GIVES THE SEED NOT WOMEN ,
WHAT IS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS
T,Mary is the Seed of David just as Isaac is the Seed of Abraham, as for the flesh. Jesus was made of Mary and so became the Son of man, as of the flesh.
The Spirit formed the flesh of Jesus within Mary's womb and formed Jesus' spirit just as it forms the spirit of those that follow him so they also are conceived and born of God.
KAgain ,the flesh stand for nothing,the soul and the spirit of it does,
A women only knits a flesh around the seed of man ,women do not provide a seed if they do tell me how
If Christ his the son of God ,he did not become one but always was the son of God ,do you understand this ,if I have a son he his my son at the delivery and reception of my seed,right
Yes,Because sins he is the seed of God ,he must be son of God by that seed ,
But Mary an sinful creature under the curse of Adam to die ,in need of a savior for her own life ,nowk you say she his not participant but a contributor to God,s creation , so now God is to pay for her contribution,
What can you find in scriptures that support some type of honor to Mary the mother of God,s son,did Christ said anything about her
Which human ever contributed something to God
The only thing Mary gives to the son of God is flesh ,and became a participant in the holy spirit of truth ,
Understand that the scriptures are also called seed, so we can say that all the prophecies are the seed of God,s holy spirit,,but it was men that was used to write it ,so they have become participants not contributors,
Same in creation the angels were participants but not contributors and what God,s as said that he alone created all things is true,participant do not give nothing ,they used just as a tool is used, do you understand this
Kerwin,
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”
46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
Kerwin, is Jesus AGREEING with the Pharisees in this instance? Or is he CORRECTING their false belief?
Which one?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2013,21:52) Romans 9:3 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;What is the antithesis of “your masters ACCORDING TO THE FLESH”? Perhaps Jesus, who is our Master ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT?
Apply that understanding to Romans 9:3, where Paul speaks about his fellow Jews as his kinsmen according to the flesh. They are distinguished from his kinsmen according to the spirit – which would include Jesus, Gentiles, and many others.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2013,23:10) Kerwin, 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”
46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
Kerwin, is Jesus AGREEING with the Pharisees in this instance? Or is he CORRECTING their false belief?
Which one?
Mike,Jesus is David's Son according to the flesh and God's Son according the spirit.
The way he can be David's Son is by the flesh.
The way he can be God's Son is by the spirit.Yes, Jesus agrees with the Pharisees but he uses their answer to point out that the promised Messiah is greater than David.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2013,23:20) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2013,21:52) Romans 9:3 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;What is the antithesis of “your masters ACCORDING TO THE FLESH”? Perhaps Jesus, who is our Master ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT?
Apply that understanding to Romans 9:3, where Paul speaks about his fellow Jews as his kinsmen according to the flesh. They are distinguished from his kinsmen according to the spirit – which would include Jesus, Gentiles, and many others.
Mike,It sounds like you are agreeing with me but I have doubts that is so.
Am I correct to say that the slaves are to obey their masters who rule their physical bodies and obey God who rules their spirits.
T,
Quote What can you find in scriptures that support some type of honor to Mary the mother of God,s son,did Christ said anything about her An angel did and so did Elizabeth when prophesying but Christ said that only those do God's will are honored.
Quote The only thing Mary gives to the son of God is flesh.. Yes, that and bringing him up as a righteous mother does with each of her children.
Quote A women only knits a flesh around the seed of man ,women do not provide a seed if they do tell me how I am not saying Mary contributed the seed but rather she herself is the Seed from whom the flesh of Jesus was made, even as Eve's flesh was made of Adam's flesh.
Quote But Mary an sinful creature under the curse of Adam to die ,in need of a savior for her own life ,nowk you say she his not participant but a contributor to God,s creation , so now God is to pay for her contribution, Mary bore in her flesh the curse of Adam that leads to the flesh of men perishing and so to did Christ for his soulish flesh perished on the cross.
Quote If Christ his the son of God ,he did not become one but always was the son of God ,do you understand this ,if I have a son he his my son at the delivery and reception of my seed,right Yes,By always I assume you mean since he came to be and with that I do not disagree. I will say Jesus is not God's Son according to the body but he is God's Son according to the Spirit.
Quote Again ,the flesh stand for nothing,the soul and the spirit of it does, I agree that the flesh is of no lasting importance while the soul and spirit is.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2013,06:07) T, Quote but this could not be done through a man born of the flesh ,because no man can save another says scriptures from his own sins or others sins ,because all men are born short from God's glory ,THIS ARE FACTS ,so how could God save humanity and yet use the flesh You have the idea of a man saving humanity and the idea of God saving humanity by using a man. So does the impossibility of the first occurring mean the second cannot?
T,You wrote:
Quote Which human ever contributed something to God The only thing Mary gives to the son of God is flesh ,and became a participant in the holy spirit of truth ,
Understand that the scriptures are also called seed, so we can say that all the prophecies are the seed of God,s holy spirit,,but it was men that was used to write it ,so they have become participants not contributors,
Same in creation the angels were participants but not contributors and what God,s as said that he alone created all things is true,participant do not give nothing ,they used just as a tool is used, do you understand this
I believe this is more in line with the topic of this conversation than the one it was in.
Yes, I understand that in using a man to save humanity it is not the man that saves but God who is the ultimate source of salvation.
Yes, I understand that though Jesus' flesh was conceived of Mary's it was not Mary, but God who is the ultimate source of Jesus' flesh being conceived.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2013,15:12) Jesus is David's Son according to the flesh and God's Son according the spirit. The way he can be David's Son is by the flesh.
The way he can be God's Son is by the spirit.
Well then, you've just answered your own question of how the Word can be of the seed of David………….. ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.Looks like I won't have to go through a drawn out discussion about that after all.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2013,15:20) Am I correct to say that the slaves are to obey their masters who rule their physical bodies and obey God who rules their spirits.
Men are to obey their earthly lords with all their heart, mind, body, and soul.They are ALSO to obey their heavenly Lords with all their heart, mind, body, and soul.
If obeying one conflicts with obeying the other, we are always to obey the heavenly Lords above all else.
But Jehovah and Jesus are not only Lords of our spirits. They are Lords over all who we are, including our physical bodies.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2013,15:12) Yes, Jesus agrees with the Pharisees but he uses their answer to point out that the promised Messiah is greater than David.
Actually Jesus corrects the Pharisees, Kerwin. He does not agree with them, but points our their error.It is for this reason that they could not reply to his words.
The point is that no father calls his own son “My Lord”.
And the fact is that although Jesus's fleshly manifestation was of the lineage of David, he is by no means the son of David.
k
Quote An angel did and so did Elizabeth when prophesying but Christ said that only those do God's will are honored. true
Quote Yes, that and bringing him up as a righteous mother does with each of her children. you mean that his mother tougth him all he knew to argue with the doctors of the law in the temple
hummmQuote I am not saying Mary contributed the seed but rather she herself is the Seed from whom the flesh of Jesus was made, even as Eve's flesh was made of Adam's flesh. so it is more NOMINAL THAN REAL
Quote By always I assume you mean since he came to be and with that I do not disagree. I will say Jesus is not God's Son according to the body but he is God's Son according to the Spirit. if he is the son of God in the spirit ,could define me the “SPIRIT”
THE SPIRIT IS A LEARNED SPIRIT THE SOUL IS A GIVEN FROM GOD
TO BE THE SON OF GOD YOU HAVE TO BE BORN A SON OF GOD AND SO PREEXISTING ,TO KNOW WHAT CHRIST KNEW AT 12 YEARS OLD
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