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Thanks for the welcoming words Gene, Ed J, Mike, and Kerwin!
Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice? 2 On the heights along the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand; 3 beside the gates leading into the city, at the entrances, she cries aloud: 4 “To you, O men, I call out; I raise my voice to all mankind. 5 You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding. 6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say; I open my lips to speak what is right. 7 My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness. 8 All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse. 9 To the discerning all of them are right; they are faultless to those who have knowledge. 10 Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold, 11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her. 12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion. 13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech. 14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine; I have understanding and power. 15 By me kings reign and rulers make laws that are just; 16 by me princes govern, and all nobles who rule on earth. 17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me. 18 With me are riches and honor, enduring wealth and prosperity. 19 My fruit is better than fine gold; what I yield surpasses choice silver. 20 I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice, 21 bestowing wealth on those who love me and making their treasuries full. 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind. 32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the LORD. 36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death.”
Hebrews 1: 1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The glory of Jesus is a man made righteous, a man that was able not to sin in his flesh through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This glory existed before time began on earth. We know that before God created man, he already promised him eternal life, and when he made Adam and Eve we are told that they were made in His image. God made the worlds through Abraham’s seed and through knowing that by his seed all nations would be blessed. God made the worlds through David’s seed and the promise of eternal life.
The bible speaks nothing of a spirit being that existed before time began that had actual glory at that time. The foundation of the gospel, the declaration of truth, lies in our understanding that God made a man righteous enough to be glorified with eternal life. If we believe in what God did in Jesus through His Spirit, by our faith we will be glorified just as he was. When we speak of a “glory” that existed with God before time began as to some other glory, other than our Father’s plan and promise that the dead shall rise with an immortal body, we have in my opinion destroyed the gospel! God made the worlds through Abraham and David’s seed Jesus. He made the worlds for the perfected man, of which Jesus BECAME when he learned obedience to God through his suffering.
Proverbs 8 does not recognize God’s Spirit of Wisdom and the powerful Words that come from that Wisdom, as a pre-existing Son. King David tells us that God’s Son had not existed yet, it was a human being to come of his seed.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55) Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..
To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven: What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right? So what do those words mean to you?
Hi Mike,The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!
Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.
1 Corinthians 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[/u] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
What is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body? Of course it would be easy to say that one is a body that can sin and one is a body that cannot. Either way there is still a body involved. Acts and Luke make it clear that when Jesus was raised from the dead, his spiritual body was one made of flesh!
What caused Jesus to inherit the kingdom of God?… was it through his flesh, was it through man?..of course not, flesh and blood cannot bring you into immortality, we must have no faith in our corruptible flesh!
Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Paul refers to “the flesh” as a state of mind that man is in due to the fact that our flesh is weak. Our natural/carnal body fears death, it has a beast of a spirit with instincts to survive. We serve this fear, it is a natural instinct within our body.
Our flesh and blood does not cause us to inherit the kingdom
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Being “in the flesh” in this context represent a state of mind, not the literal flesh.
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
2 Corinthains 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Paul has repeatedly told us what “the flesh” is referring to, our weak flesh that brings us temptation.
The mind of Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered, even though he had a body that drew him into temptation and sin, he never served his natural body, he stayed true to serving God. This gave him the glory of receiving a fleshly body that could never die. When you have a body that cannot die, death no longer has dominion over you, tempting you to sin. Jesus dwells in a perfected mind and body!My understanding is that Jesus received the same flesh that Adam and Eve began with!
After Adam and Eve sinned their flesh was made mortal. All of creation was put under a spiritual curse, fearing death and serving the body in order to survive. Adam and Eve were created with a spiritual body, but in their ignorance they were far from having a spiritual mind. With a mortal body man’s obedience and his journey to righteousness could be established through suffering combined with knowledge from the Holy Spirit. The mind of Jesus was perfected in his weak flesh, making him worthy of receiving immortal flesh. Jesus is a new creation, a human fleshly being that cannot die full of the knowledge of the Lord!
Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. 6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption
, the redemption of our body.Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,00:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55) Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..
To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven: What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right? So what do those words mean to you?
Hi Mike,The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!
Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.
1 Corinthians 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[/u] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
What is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body? Of course it would be easy to say that one is a body that can sin and one is a body that cannot. Either way there is still a body involved. Acts and Luke make it clear that when Jesus was raised from the dead, his spiritual body was one made of flesh!
What caused Jesus to inherit the kingdom of God?… was it through his flesh, was it through man?..of course not, flesh and blood cannot bring you into immortality, we must have no faith in our corruptible flesh!
Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Paul refers to “the flesh” as a state of mind that man is in due to the fact that our flesh is weak. Our natural/carnal body fears death, it has a beast of a spirit with instincts to survive. We serve this fear, it is a natural instinct within our body.
Our flesh and blood does not cause us to inherit the kingdom
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Being “in the flesh” in this context represent a state of mind, not the literal flesh.
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
2 Corinthains 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Paul has repeatedly told us what “the flesh” is referring to, our weak flesh that brings us temptation.
The mind of Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered, even though he had a body that drew him into temptation and sin, he never served his natural body, he stayed true to serving God. This gave him the glory of receiving a fleshly body that could never die. When you have a body that cannot die, death no longer has dominion over you, tempting you to sin. Jesus dwells in a perfected mind and body!My understanding is that Jesus received the same flesh that Adam and Eve began with!
After Adam and Eve sinned their flesh was made mortal. All of creation was put under a spiritual curse, fearing death and serving the body in order to survive. Adam and Eve were created with a spiritual body, but in their ignorance they were far from having a spiritual mind. With a mortal body man’s obedience and his journey to righteousness could be established through suffering combined with knowledge from the Holy Spirit. The mind of Jesus was perfected in his weak flesh, making him worthy of receiving immortal flesh. Jesus is a new creation, a human fleshly being that cannot die full of the knowledge of the Lord!
Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. 6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that
the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
JodyQuote Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set. in Hebrew 5;7
it specifically is related to Christ ;so all your other scriptures that are specific to man are not the same intend
in 5;7 Paul talks about an specific time about Jesus AND THAT IS WEN HE WAS UNDER THE COVER OF FLESH ,AND THAT TIME ONLY ,
Christ in heaven before and after he was in the flesh ,this is why Paul is so specific about the time IN THE FLESH,
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,05:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55) Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..
To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven: What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right? So what do those words mean to you?
Hi Mike,The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!
Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.
1 Corinthians 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[/u] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
What is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body? Of course it would be easy to say that one is a body that can sin and one is a body that cannot. Either way there is still a body involved. Acts and Luke make it clear that when Jesus was raised from the dead, his spiritual body was one made of flesh!
What caused Jesus to inherit the kingdom of God?… was it through his flesh, was it through man?..of course not, flesh and blood cannot bring you into immortality, we must have no faith in our corruptible flesh!
Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Paul refers to “the flesh” as a state of mind that man is in due to the fact that our flesh is weak. Our natural/carnal body fears death, it has a beast of a spirit with instincts to survive. We serve this fear, it is a natural instinct within our body.
Our flesh and blood does not cause us to inherit the kingdom
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Being “in the flesh” in this context represent a state of mind, not the literal flesh.
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
2 Corinthains 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Paul has repeatedly told us what “the flesh” is referring to, our weak flesh that brings us temptation.
The mind of Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered, even though he had a body that drew him into temptation and sin, he never served his natural body, he stayed true to serving God. This gave him the glory of receiving a fleshly body that could never die. When you have a body that cannot die, death no longer has dominion over you, tempting you to sin. Jesus dwells in a perfected mind and body!My understanding is that Jesus received the same flesh that Adam and Eve began with!
After Adam and Eve sinned their flesh was made mortal. All of creation was put under a spiritual curse, fearing death and serving the body in order to survive. Adam and Eve were created with a spiritual body, but in their ignorance they were far from having a spiritual mind. With a mortal body man’s obedience and his journey to righteousness could be established through suffering combined with knowledge from the Holy Spirit. The mind of Jesus was perfected in his weak flesh, making him worthy of receiving immortal flesh. Jesus is a new creation, a human fleshly being that cannot die full of the knowledge of the Lord!
Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. 6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that
the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
Jodi…….Another right on and a excellent post Sis. You nailed it, lets see if Mike and his co-hart Pierre can even begin to understand it.Peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Hi Mike,
Quote Corinthians 15 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Do you agree that this passage is about JESUS CHRIST destroying all the enemies that his God placed under his feet?
Yes. Destroying or bringing under him.
Quote If you do, then you'll also be able to see that it is JESUS CHRIST who does battle against the beast and the kings of the earth….. not the Holy Spirit, nor the “spirit of Christ”. Yes I agree. There is a difference in Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ or the Spirit of the Son.
One is here now and the other is still to come.Quote Read Acts 4:25-6/Psalm 2:1-2 for confirmation of who exactly the kings of the earth gather against. Then compare those verses against Revelation 19:19. Rev 19:19 the end of the world the return of Christ Jesus – it is still to come.
Your opinion?
Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2013,20:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,13:00) Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2013,16:28)
“he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood” …means…“their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments” (Isa 63:3)
That could be, Ed. It seems the commentators agree with that thought.But isn't this rider in Rev 19 already wearing a robe dipped in blood BEFORE the battle even begins? How could it be THEIR blood before the battle has even started?
Hi Mike,I like when you attempt to use commentators to prove
your belief – then totally discard them when you disagree.
Does that not PROVE that their commentaries MEAN NOTHING? (<– please answer)
No Ed,It means that sometimes even expert commentators miss things. Sometimes they are led by personal desires, such as the desire for Jesus to be the very God he is the Son of. So sometimes, for various reasons, they are wrong.
Most of them have read the scriptures backwards and forwards for years, in English, Greek, and Hebrew. They have a lot of helpful knowledge. But they are just men. And like us, they are prone to mistakes on occasion.
Now, would you address MY point that DIDN'T come from any commentator?
How could it be THEIR blood before the battle even began?
Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2013,05:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,07:52) Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2013,14:42) Mike, I still say “the Word made flesh” when speaking of the Word that was made flesh after it was made.
Okay. We're getting nearer to clearer now. So you are saying that AFTER the Word WAS MADE flesh, it is okay to refer to him as “The Word-Made-Flesh”. I can get on board with that.But before he could ever be called “The Word-Made-Flesh”, he first had to BE MADE flesh.
So who exactly was with God in the beginning, before he WAS MADE flesh and dwelt on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?
Mike,1 Before the Word was made flesh it was not the Word made flesh.
2 It was the Word that was with the god and was god in the beginning.
3 It was the Word by which all things were made. It was the Word in which there is life.
4 What do those words mean to a man familiar with biblical teachings of the time it was wrote and ignorant of those that arose afterwards?
1. Agreed. (“He”, not “it”)2. Agreed. (“He”, not “it”, was “a god” who was with “the God”. Because “THE God” cannot possibly be with Himself.)
3. Agreed. (“He”, not “it”.)
4. Well, it was John who called Jesus “the Word of God” in Revelation 19:13. It was John who called Jesus “the Word” in 1 John 1:1. And considering that the ENTIRE gospel of John was written to explain JESUS to us, and that 1 chapter of that gospel describes this “Word” in a way that could fit no one else in scripture EXCEPT FOR Jesus……. I'd say John was making it fairly easy and clear for us to understand that by “the Word”, he meant “Jesus Christ”.
Perhaps you could re-read my last post, and compare the things said about “the Word” in John 1 with the same things that are said about “Jesus” elsewhere in many scriptures. Can all of those exact same things that are said about both of them just be “coincidences”? Or could “the Word” and “Jesus Christ” be the same exact entity?
Quote (2besee @ June 24 2013,17:08) Rev 19:19 the end of the world the return of Christ Jesus – it is still to come. Your opinion?
Agreed. But the point is that it will be JESUS CHRIST who battles against the beast and the kings of the earth.Therefore, it is JESUS CHRIST who rides the white horse.
Therefore, it is JESUS CHRIST who is called “the Word of God”.
(It is also Jesus Christ who has eyes of blazing fire, and a sword coming out of his mouth. Rev 1:14, 16)
Mike,
The blood on the robe before the battle represents the blood of the martyrs that Jesus is going to defend, imo.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 24 2013,15:31) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,05:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55) Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..
To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven: What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right? So what do those words mean to you?
Hi Mike,The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!
Jodi…….Another right on and a excellent post Sis. You nailed it, lets see if Mike and his co-hart Pierre can even begin to understand it.
Gene,Does that mean you'll just be riding Jodi's coattails on this one, and not offering an answer of your own?
It's just as well that way.Jodi, I noticed that you had to add the word “weak” into the scripture so that it conforms to your preconceived understanding that Jesus continues to be a flesh being to this very day.
I find it better to conform my understanding around the scriptures than to conform the scriptures around my understanding.
You are correct that we have a lot of differences, and much to discuss.
I will set up a “Mike and Jodi ONLY” debate thread where we can take these things a little at a time. That way, if you leave for a while, you won't be bogged down with a million new posts since you last posted.
I'm in no hurry, so you can leave for a month or more if you want, and the thread will be right where you left it when you come back.
(Please, no huge “novel posts” that contain a zillion scriptures at once. Slow and steady wins the race.)
I'll get it started.
Jodi Lee,
Welcome back! From what I have gained from researching about the Logos of John 1:1, the Word of the Lord was a very familiar expression to the Jews which you can see in the Jewish Targums. John was referring to that 'Word' that they were very familiar with.Quote In Aramaic, a standard term for word is memra. The Aramaic Targums, however, often use memra
as a technical term referring to a personification of divine power and presence. The Targums consistently add the phrase “Memra/word of God” to passages in Genesis 1 describing God’s creative acts.
15
For example, while the Hebrew Bible reads “And God said, let there be light” (Gen 1.3), the Aramaic Targum reads “And the Memra/word of God said, let there be light.” Variants on this pattern continue throughout Genesis 1. Other allusions to creation in the Targums follow a similar practice. Genesis 14.19 in Hebrew reads “Blessed be Abraham by God Most High, creator of heaven and earth,” while in Aramaic it reads: “Blessed be Abraham by God Most High,who by his Memra/Word created heaven and earth.” The Isaiah Targums likewise often add the phrase “by my Memra/word ” when describing God creating the world (Isa28.13, 44.24, 45.12).
16
Thus, in the Aramaic Bible–the translation of the Bible with which most Judeans at the time of Jesus would be familiar–the Memra/Word is consistently described as being with God in the beginning, and creating all things. This is precisely how the Logos concept is described in John 1, where John replaces the Aramaic term memra with its Greek equivalent, logos. Thus, for Aramaic speaking Jews of the first century, John’s Word theology would not have seemed like a radical new idea at all, but a standard way they had already heard creation by the Memra/Word described. What would have been a very radical new idea for mostJews, however, was that John equated this Memra/Logos/Word with Jesus the Messiah, who became flesh (Jn 1.14).Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,06:10) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,00:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55) Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..
To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven: What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right? So what do those words mean to you?
Hi Mike,The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!
Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.
1 Corinthians 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[/u] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
What is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body? Of course it would be easy to say that one is a body that can sin and one is a body that cannot. Either way there is still a body involved. Acts and Luke make it clear that when Jesus was raised from the dead, his spiritual body was one made of flesh!
What caused Jesus to inherit the kingdom of God?… was it through his flesh, was it through man?..of course not, flesh and blood cannot bring you into immortality, we must have no faith in our corruptible flesh!
Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Paul refers to “the flesh” as a state of mind that man is in due to the fact that our flesh is weak. Our natural/carnal body fears death, it has a beast of a spirit with instincts to survive. We serve this fear, it is a natural instinct within our body.
Our flesh and blood does not cause us to inherit the kingdom
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Being “in the flesh” in this context represent a state of mind, not the literal flesh.
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
2 Corinthains 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Paul has repeatedly told us what “the flesh” is referring to, our weak flesh that brings us temptation.
The mind of Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered, even though he had a body that drew him into temptation and sin, he never served his natural body, he stayed true to serving God. This gave him the glory of receiving a fleshly body that could never die. When you have a body that cannot die, death no longer has dominion over you, tempting you to sin. Jesus dwells in a perfected mind and body!My understanding is that Jesus received the same flesh that Adam and Eve began with!
After Adam and Eve sinned their flesh was made mortal. All of creation was put under a spiritual curse, fearing death and serving the body in order to survive. Adam and Eve were created with a spiritual body, but in their ignorance they were far from having a spiritual mind. With a mortal body man’s obedience and his journey to righteousness could be established through suffering combined with knowledge from the Holy Spirit. The mind of Jesus was perfected in his weak flesh, making him worthy of receiving immortal flesh. Jesus is a new creation, a human fleshly being that cannot die full of the knowledge of the Lord!
Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. 6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected t
o futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
JodyQuote Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set. in Hebrew 5;7
it specifically is related to Christ ;so all your other scriptures that are specific to man are not the same intend
in 5;7 Paul talks about an specific time about Jesus AND THAT IS WEN HE WAS UNDER THE COVER OF FLESH ,AND THAT TIME ONLY ,
Christ in heaven before and after he was in the flesh ,this is why Paul is so specific about the time IN THE FLESH,
“under the cover of the flesh”?? I have not read a scripture with that statement in it. What exactly do you mean by this?Christ was, and is a man, and he once had mortal flesh that was tempted just like our flesh, those “other scriptures” certainly do apply!
That very chapter of Hebrews discusses that Jesus did not pre-exist,
5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”
Psalm 2:7
“I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.1 Chronicles 22:10
He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'At the time of King David, the Son of God was still to come, he did not exist yet. The plan of Jesus existed, but Jesus did not exist yet.
It is a fact according to the Gospel of Luke that Jesus was raised with flesh and bones. There is no scripture that says he turned into some other sort of being afterwards.
It is a fact according to Acts that God promised “according to the flesh” Christ would sit on the throne!
30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
We are told that according to the flesh Christ would sit on the throne, and we are told that his body was not allowed to decompose, and Jesus said he was flesh and bones after he rose, so I BELIEVE IT!!
It is not unreasonable to understand that “in the days of his flesh” the author was referring to “the days” of when Jesus had mortal flesh.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,07:19) Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,06:10) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,00:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55) Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..
To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven: What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right? So what do those words mean to you?
Hi Mike,The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!
Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set.
1 Corinthians 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[/u] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
What is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body? Of course it would be easy to say that one is a body that can sin and one is a body that cannot. Either way there is still a body involved. Acts and Luke make it clear that when Jesus was raised from the dead, his spiritual body was one made of flesh!
What caused Jesus to inherit the kingdom of God?… was it through his flesh, was it through man?..of course not, flesh and blood cannot bring you into immortality, we must have no faith in our corruptible flesh!
Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Paul refers to “the flesh” as a state of mind that man is in due to the fact that our flesh is weak. Our natural/carnal body fears death, it has a beast of a spirit with instincts to survive. We serve this fear, it is a natural instinct within our body.
Our flesh and blood does not cause us to inherit the kingdom
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Being “in the flesh” in this context represent a state of mind, not the literal flesh.
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
2 Corinthains 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Paul has repeatedly told us what “the flesh” is referring to, our weak flesh that brings us temptation.
The mind of Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered, even though he had a body that drew him into temptation and sin, he never served his natural body, he stayed true to serving God. This gave him the glory of receiving a fleshly body that could never die. When you have a body that cannot die, death no longer has dominion over you, tempting you to sin. Jesus dwells in a perfected mind and body!My understanding is that Jesus received the same flesh that Adam and Eve began with!
After Adam and Eve sinned their flesh was made mortal. All of creation was put under a spiritual curse, fearing death and serving the body in order to survive. Adam and Eve were created with a spiritual body, but in their ignorance they were far from having a spiritual mind. With a mortal body man’s obedience and his journey to righteousness could be established through suffering combined with knowledge from the Holy Spirit. The mind of Jesus was perfected in his weak flesh, making him worthy of receiving immortal flesh. Jesus is a new creation, a human fleshly being that cannot die full of the knowledge of the Lord!
Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. 6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth sha
ll be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
JodyQuote Scripture, particularly those writings of Paul, use “flesh” to refer to a carnal human mind set. in Hebrew 5;7
it specifically is related to Christ ;so all your other scriptures that are specific to man are not the same intend
in 5;7 Paul talks about an specific time about Jesus AND THAT IS WEN HE WAS UNDER THE COVER OF FLESH ,AND THAT TIME ONLY ,
Christ in heaven before and after he was in the flesh ,this is why Paul is so specific about the time IN THE FLESH,
“under the cover of the flesh”?? I have not read a scripture with that statement in it. What exactly do you mean by this?Christ was, and is a man, and he once had mortal flesh that was tempted just like our flesh, those “other scriptures” certainly do apply!
That very chapter of Hebrews discusses that Jesus did not pre-exist,
5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”
Psalm 2:7
“I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.1 Chronicles 22:10
He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'At the time of King David, the Son of God was still to come, he did not exist yet. The plan of Jesus existed, but Jesus did not exist yet.
It is a fact according to the Gospel of Luke that Jesus was raised with flesh and bones. There is no scripture that says he turned into some other sort of being afterwards.
It is a fact according to Acts that God promised “according to the flesh” Christ would sit on the throne!
30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
We are told that according to the flesh Christ would sit on the throne, and we are told that his body was not allowed to decompose, and Jesus said he was flesh and bones after he rose, so I BELIEVE IT!!
It is not unreasonable to understand that “in the days of his flesh” the author was referring to “the days” of when Jesus had mortal flesh.
JODICol 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—verse 16 says that all things were created through him IF HE WAS NOT THERE HOW COULD THIS BE
AND WHY COULD CHRIST BE THE ONE THAT CAN RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH
AND WHY DID IT TOOK ;THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE POWER OF GOD TO BRING CHRIST TO HIS BIRTH FROM A WOMEN
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2013,11:13) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 24 2013,15:31) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,05:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55) Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..
To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven: What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right? So what do those words mean to you?
Hi Mike,The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!
Jodi…….Another right on and a excellent post Sis. You nailed it, lets see if Mike and his co-hart Pierre can even begin to understand it.
Gene,Does that mean you'll just be riding Jodi's coattails on this one, and not offering an answer of your own?
It's just as well that way.Jodi, I noticed that you had to add the word “weak” into the scripture so that it conforms to your preconceived understanding that Jesus continues to be a flesh being to this very day.
I find it better to conform my understanding around the scriptures than to conform the scriptures around my understanding.
You are correct that we have a lot of differences, and much to discuss.
I will set up a “Mike and Jodi ONLY” debate thread where we can take these things a little at a time. That way, if you leave for a while, you won't be bogged down with a million new posts since you last posted.
I'm in no hurry, so you can leave for a month or more if you want, and the thread will be right where you left it when you come back.
(Please, no huge “novel posts” that contain a zillion scriptures at once. Slow and steady wins the race.)
I'll get it started.
Okay Mike, that sounds good.I have the summer off, so I won't be going anywhere too soon! I will work on making my posts shorter, ha, I do remember that bothering you before!!
Mike………The difference between me and you is, when I hear the truth I know it, and acknowledge it, you and your co-hart Pierre on the other hand, have no idea of it, and can only disagree and stumble along, trying to make scripture say what it obviously, does not say. As far as riding on Jodie's coat tail, she is only repeating what I have also said over and over for years now. IMO
Peace and love to you and your……………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2013,08:28) Mike………The difference between me and you is, when I hear the truth I know it, and acknowledge it, you and your co-hart Pierre on the other hand, have no idea of it, and can only disagree and stumble along, trying to make scripture say what it obviously, does not say. As far as riding on Jodie's coat tail, she is only repeating what I have also said over and over for years now. IMO Peace and love to you and your……………………….gene
GeneWe all can see our own truth but that is not the one preached in the scriptures ,it is the truth of God in scriptures and that you do not see, because we can read what you say and it does not fit the scriptures,
Jodi……..Check out the DISCUSSION thread , would like your input there also.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,13:33) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2013,08:28) Mike………The difference between me and you is, when I hear the truth I know it, and acknowledge it, you and your co-hart Pierre on the other hand, have no idea of it, and can only disagree and stumble along, trying to make scripture say what it obviously, does not say. As far as riding on Jodie's coat tail, she is only repeating what I have also said over and over for years now. IMO Peace and love to you and your……………………….gene
GeneWe all can see our own truth but that is not the one preached in the scriptures ,it is the truth of God in scriptures and that you do not see, because we can read what you say and it does not fit the scriptures,
Terricca……..What you really mean is you can see ?”YOUR OWN TRUTH” RIGHT,? If we are wrong prove it , instead of just mouthing off about it, it's not us who are twisting scripture to say what they don't say , it's you , Mike and the other Trinitarians and Preexistence here. You have your wires crossed as to who is not producing the truth here, that is why when we post scriptures, ( actual scripture) , you just ignore them or say they mean something else other then what they say. I learned how to tell those who have the spirit of truth in them, along time ago, and believe me it is definitely not you, but you do have a spirit working in you, and to all who have the spirit of truth in them , they can see it clearly. They don't need a “MYSTERY” Form of religion as you people do.The lines are being drawn here between those who have the truth and those who don't, I see those lines between the wise and the foolish
More and more prevalent here now. I have no doubt at all you have no idea what you guys are even talking about and I am not alone on this either.Peace and love ……………………………gene
Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,12:29) JODI Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—verse 16 says that all things were created through him IF HE WAS NOT THERE HOW COULD THIS BE
AND WHY COULD CHRIST BE THE ONE THAT CAN RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH
AND WHY DID IT TOOK ;THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE POWER OF GOD TO BRING CHRIST TO HIS BIRTH FROM A WOMEN
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.He who? There is a difference between some pre-existing immortal being, and the man who was in every way like us but yet became perfected through suffering. Genesis and Apostle Paul tells us that MAN was created in the image of God. I could not imagine Jesus being exactly the image of God until he was made perfect, can you? ALL scriptures referring to a person being the image of God refer specifically to a human being.
The firstborn over all creation?Colossians itself identifies WHICH creation the MAN that is the image of God is firstborn over all, the new heaven and earth established for those raised from the dead! Colossians specifies it for us telling us that … “And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.”
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Never once does Colossians speak of some spirit being that transformed himself into a human. All scriptures must be read in the context that they are referring to the MAN Jesus, not a spirit being that became Jesus.
2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
“For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”
There is a HUGE difference as to who this is speaking of and what that MEANS TO US! Does the surrounding scripture talk about the glory of some spirit being before creation?.. . NO! The entire scripture is referring to the MAN that died on the cross. God created all things through the plan of the coming Messiah, God created all things for the Messiah. God created all things through the knowledge of the MAN He would perfect. God created all things for the PERFECTED MAN.
————————–
It took the Holy Spirit and the power of God to bring John the baptist as well as other OT children!!
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Why did it take the Messiah to reconcile all things?Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2013,11:13) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 24 2013,15:31) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,05:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55) Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..
To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven: What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right? So what do those words mean to you?
Hi Mike,The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!
Jodi…….Another right on and a excellent post Sis. You nailed it, lets see if Mike and his co-hart Pierre can even begin to understand it.
Gene,Does that mean you'll just be riding Jodi's coattails on this one, and not offering an answer of your own?
It's just as well that way.Jodi, I noticed that you had to add the word “weak” into the scripture so that it conforms to your preconceived understanding that Jesus continues to be a flesh being to this very day.
I find it better to conform my understanding around the scriptures than to conform the scriptures around my understanding.
You are correct that we have a lot of differences, and much to discuss.
I will set up a “Mike and Jodi ONLY” debate thread where we can take these things a little at a time. That way, if you leave for a while, you won't be bogged down with a million new posts since you last posted.
I'm in no hurry, so you can leave for a month or more if you want, and the thread will be right where you left it when you come back.
(Please, no huge “novel posts” that contain a zillion scriptures at once. Slow and steady wins the race.)
I'll get it started.
The fact of the matter is, the flesh that is being spoken about was indeed weak flesh, right? We can agree to that?….he cried with vehement cries, he was tempted just like we are.Nothing conforms to my “preconceived ideas”, I was born and raised in a church that believed in the pre-existence of Jesus. I have changed my understanding of several things over the years as I have continued to study.
Let's not waist each others time arguing over who conforms their understanding around scripture. I prefer that we debate by giving scripture and seeing who's understanding makes the most sense by those scriptures.
Acts tells us that “according to the flesh He would raise up Christ to sit on His throne.”
Acts tells us that “that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses”
Luke tells us, “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
These scriptures directly tell us that when Jesus was raised from the dead and when he was placed on the throne in heaven he was indeed FLESH!
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