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gollamudi……Amen, brother, but Nick believes Jesus preexisted unless he has changed his mind. What you have quoted is the truth there is only one GOD and CREATOR and that's GOD the FATHER ALONE.
love and peace to you and yours……………gene
It is wrong to think that there is only one GOD and CREATOR and that's GOD the FATHER ALONE coupled with a non-preexisting Christ.
Yes there is only one GOD and CREATOR and FATHER, but when God created Eve, he did so even though Adam existed and he also made Eve through Adam, yet it was still God who created Eve. So this simple demonstration shows that coupling the 2 ideas you mentioned is not a necessary dependency.
So we are back to scripture and scripture records the words of Jesus, “Before Abraham, I am”, when asked “Are you oder than Abraham?”.
T8…..I believe you are wrong in this, no scripture (SPECIFICALLY) says Jesus was a live being before He was born on earth. But as Adam brought out GOD did SPECIFICALLY SAY, He (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF did it. If you want to us except you teachings then you must answer these Specific scriptures.
Peace to you and yours T8………………..gene
There are other Scriptures that Jesus preexsisted.
First I do believe that Jesus as the Word God was there in the beginning with Father God. But I see it as God being a tittle or a Family Name. Question did the Word have a beginning or was He always there with Father God? Here we have to go to other scripture to find this out.
Col. 1:15 I hope that you W.J. and Mandy read this with an open mind.
Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”
Verse 16 ” For by Him all things were created……………
verse 17 ” And He was before all things and in Him all things consist.”
cerse 18 I ratherfind it interesting, because it shows us that He was first in all. So that He will have preeminence, meaning first to be born and first to be resurrected from the dead.Rev. 3:14 “..These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.” I find this verse also very important because it tells you that He indeed is the Firstborn of all creation.
Then when you go to Proverbs 8: 22-30 I love these verses especailly if you take it out of the James Moffat translation of the Bible.
verse 22 ” The eternal formes me first of His creation, first of all His works in days of old.”
verse 23 ” I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first when earth began.”verse 24 I WAS BORN WHEN THERE WAS NO ABYSSES, WHEN THERE WERE NO FOUNTAINS OF WATER.”
verse 25 “e're He sank the basis of the Mountains, e're the hills exsisted, I WAS BORN.'
verse 26 ” when earth and fields were not created, nor the very clouds of the world.”
verse 27 ” When He set the heavens up, I WAS THERE, where He drew the Vaults o're the abyss.”
verse 28 ” when He made the clouds firm overhead, when He fixed the fountains of the deep.”
verse 29 ” When He set the bounderies of the sea, when He layed foundation of the earth.”
verse 30 “I WAS THERE WITH HIM THEN, HIS FOSTER CHILD, I was His delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.
This is so exciting to me to see all of this.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene….Prov 8 is talking about WISDOM a primary attribute of GOD the FATHER HIMSELF. The word Jesus is nowhere in the texts, you simply putting it there. Read Prov 8:1-3, wisdom here is described as a women not a man. Jesus was a man. This is just metaphor of wisdom. That the way it appears to me SIS.
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Adam,
Thank you for your response.The Son of God is not another God that is the source of all things good. He is the very Son of that God though, the only begotten son, God of God, and is credited with being the one who laid the foundation of the earth.
Heb 1:8-128 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
NASULU
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 23 2008,13:26) Irene….Prov 8 is talking about WISDOM a primary attribute of GOD the FATHER HIMSELF. The word Jesus is nowhere in the texts, you simply putting it there. Read Prov 8:1-3, wisdom here is described as a women not a man. Jesus was a man. This is just metaphor of wisdom. That the way it appears to me SIS. peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Actually that is correct. Wisdom is being referred to as an attribute and hence the she and not he.At some point however, the attribute is said to be born and is now a he.
Here is where it gets interesting:
Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,So from these verses we can see the following points.
- Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
- Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
- Wisdom was given birth before creation.
- Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
From verse 22 onward it changes from female to male tempo. With terms like “I was given birth”, “I was the craftsman at his side”, and “I was filled with delight”, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses as confirmation that Jesus is indeed wisdom/Wisdom:
1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.So if you are making the argument that wisdom is an attribute given that it is referred to in the female gender, then also please equally recognise the fact that Jesus is called the wisdom of God, that wisdom was given birth in the beginning, that wisdom is called a craftsman and wisdom was at God's side.
Then compare all this with the fact that the Logos was with God, Jesus is at the right hand side of God with the glory he had before the world begun, and that as the word was given birth as the first of God's works, so was Jesus the firstborn of all creation
A shear coincidence or something revealed to those who study the scriptures?
How dose this fit t8? I was thinking the wisdom is gods compass, and for the Man a virus woman is a compass to the resting of his soul? pro 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence
Jer 31:22How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, [and] mountain of holiness.
And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they [that] go forth with flocks.
For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.
Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.Pro 8:1¶Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice [is] to the sons of man.For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.when he created a new thing a compass
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:perhaps Mary did more for Jesus, than what meets the eye.
Quote (david @ Sep. 18 2008,12:49) Quote David, it is my opinion that Jesus found himself in the form of a man – knowing at this point that he was God's Son. Upon realizing that he was royalty (indeed, a Prince), he did not act on this but humbled himself and became a servant. But Mandy, i do not believe this is what it says. Take whatever Bible you like.
It says this:
Our attitude should be the same as Christs
who
although being the very nature of God or existing in God's form
made himself nothing, emptied himself,
and
took on a slaves form, being made a human
and humbled himself as far as death.
Yes, he found himself in the form of man, as you say, AFTER being the very nature of God or existing in God's form.
We understand what the “form of man” is, what a slaves form is–humans, flesh, physical beings.
And we could contrast that with God's heavenly spirit body form or nature.He gave all that up! The best comparison I could think of is if one of us willingly decided to be a fly for a few years.
I think you're missing parts of this scripture. The 'made himself nothing' or 'emptied himself' part. We are to keep the mental attitude that Christ had, humility.
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He (A)existed in the (B)form of God, ©did not regard equality with God a thing to be graspedQuote Certainly a Prince who willingly steps down from his priviledged place to walk with common man knows quite a lot about humility.
Definitely true.But it's only humility if the prince existed before and willingly chose that course. IS IT NOT?
Quote On the other hand, a person who had existed as God prior to being born a puny man (and then also having the knowledge that he would return to God) could humble himself for a time but would it really be humbling himself? Or just a temporary inconvenience? If your the second in the whole universe, and you take on a slaves form, yes, it is by every definition, humility. A proud one would have said: “Don't you know who I am? Can't someone less important do this?”
If I asked the Queen of England to take the lowest position for a few years, it would certainly take humility to do this. Most likely she would have too much pride.
I'm uncertain how this could possibly be considered unclear?Quote So we are back to scripture and scripture records the words of Jesus, “Before Abraham, I am”, when asked “Are you oder than Abraham?”. People have to be extremely biased or have to have had the “I am” is a secret code belief repeated to them a thousand times for them to understand this as anything other than Jesus explaining that he existed before Abraham.
LOOK AT THE CONTEXT!Quote T8…..I believe you are wrong in this, no scripture (SPECIFICALLY) says Jesus was a live being before He was born on earth. See and answer first post on this page.
Quote Read Prov 8:1-3, wisdom here is described as a women not a man. –gene
This is just wrong thinking.
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son.
The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
If you want to disagree you can, but this is a false argument.
Sorry, David, but I feel that it's only clear to YOU.
Everyone has their own opinion or interpretation that is clear to THEM.You'll have to forgive me, but I've lost interest in debate. I only check in here to read and post some thoughts. I don't really care to fight for doctrine anymore. It just doesn't seem worth fighting for – it's all so unclear. But I continue to read other's theories in hopes of gaining insight.
Take care. You debate well, David. I wish you many converts!
Love,
MandyOur attitude should be the same as Christs
who
although being the very nature of God or existing in God's form
made himself nothing, emptied himself,
and
took on a slaves form, being made a human
and humbled himself as far as death.
It's this part that you ignore:
who
although being the very nature of God or existing in God's form
made himself nothing, emptied himself,And, you also ignore the fact that to show humility, Jesus HAD TO EXIST before. Otherwise, it was no act of humility to make himself nothing or empty himself. The scripture says we are to have that same attitude of Christ, who although existing in God's form, emptied himself, became nothing.
There is no logical way of twisting this to say that he didn't pre-exist as a person. You'd have to change definitions of words or just ignore it and ignore those questions which I asked before and which you seem to want to ignore.
I don't really care to fight for doctrine anymore.
So,…. you're leaving?Quote But I continue to read other's theories in hopes of gaining insight. Read other peoples theories? What does the scripture actually say? I'm wondering if you could just type it out in your own words.
No, David, I'm not leaving. Must I leave if I no longer want to debate? Is this a debating forum only?
As for your last post, I'm not sure exactly what you are asking of me (type it out in my own words?). But yes, there are theories here. No one can be proven “right” or “wrong” for the scriptures lend themselves to various belief systems.
Quote No, David, I'm not leaving. Must I leave if I no longer want to debate? Is this a debating forum only?
Sorry, I didn't read the rest of what you said. With so much wrongness out there, it's hard not to speak. But I suppose if you're unclear…Quote As for your last post, I'm not sure exactly what you are asking of me (type it out in my own words?). Yes.
That would be great and helpful for me. Please.
Ha, David, what would be helpful for you? You still are not making sense to me? What is it you would like me to do?
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