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Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 08 2008,00:44) Hi all,
I posted this in pre-existense and I don't think that it got the attention it deserved so I am putting it here.Read through this passage to see if you can tell me who the “I” is here. Don't miss v. 16.
Isa 48:12-16
12
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
NASUHere this might help:
Heb 1:8-108 But of the Son He says…….
10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASUThe First and the Last is also spoken of here:
Rev 1:17-1917 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
NASUNotice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.
In summary, could the answer be the only begotten Son of God? Whoever the “I” is, spread out the heavens and his hand founded the earth and then later, the Lord God sent Him and His Spirit.
LU
Hi Nick,
So is the word the first and the last? Where is that written?Quote (t8 @ Sep. 08 2008,20:57) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 07 2008,11:31) He emptied himself. *It's still questioned just what he emptied* Taking the form of a bond servant. *He became poor so that he could reach us*
Being made in the likeness of men. *He was born to Mary, a human being*
To me, this passage has never meant that Jesus lived prior to his birth. It could simply mean that he emptied himself of his pride (as Paul is admonishing everyone to do in context), that he took a low position among us, and that even though he is the Son of God (who is Spirit) – he was made like us.
At this point I am relying on my own experience with Jesus and with God. If I were to rely on the Scriptures alone I would be on a merry-go-round that never stopped! There are just too many interpretations available to any one passage.
Talk about AMBIGUOUS!
Mandy
It says he existed in the form of God or with divine nature and then made himself of no reputation and took upon him flesh.So if he partakes of human nature and becomes human, then it probably doesn't require much imagination as to what he left and what he took on. It is there for all to read.
Philippians 2:6-7 (King James Version)
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:Philippians 2:6 (New International Version)
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:- Was in the form of God, or had divine nature.
- Demoted himself to become a man
- Humbled himself to the point of death
- Raised up to the right hand of God
Hi brother T8,
Sorry to question you; If Jesus was in the form of God don't you think Adam was also in the form of God but wanted to rob the glory of God and wished to become like God ?As you say Jesus is not God then whom do you think Jesus was, a 'god' or demi-god ?
Speaking of a “demi-god”, I was reading some mythology today for the first time……I recognize a lot of bible themes in mythology especially surrounding the nature of Christ.
Which came first – mythology OR the Christ story?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 14 2008,17:09) Hi not3,
Is it now relegated to the myths and legends section of your faith library?
Huh?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 15 2008,10:56) Not3in1……..Mandy welcome to my world, 
Hi bro,It is a shame that so many topics and converstions become tainted and turn into “fight with Nick” threads.
But he does challenge many to trim the fat and get down to the skinny of any one theory. In this way, you should thank him for helping you to fine-tune your teachings. You just have to ignore the rest…..(he does, you can).
Love ya Gene,
Mandyso long as truth is the winner
the Son of God is upheld
the Scriptures are honoured
then God is served.The journey can be abrasive
I appreciate your careful questions my brother Nick
Keep encouraging brothers to share more so that we may come to the full knowledge of God and His Son Jesus.Thanks and love to you
Adamspirit beings can carry children in them.whether it is true? if true Jesus is in God.The inner man/being of God is jesus who became our inner man also.please explain this.
pulivarthyHi,
Jesus, the monogenes theos (only begotten God), is subservient to His Father, the Most High God. And we are subservient to Jesus.
AMEN
LUHello Gene and Adam and all,
The first and the last here is the Son of God:
Isa 48:12-16
12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
NASUYou can also see here in Hebrews that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of the Son's hands.
Heb 1:8-10
8 But of the Son He says…….
10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASUThe First and the Last is also spoken of here:
Rev 1:17-1917 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
NASUNotice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.
Jesus is the “first and the last”. In Is 48:12-13 it says that the “first and the last” spread out the heavens with His right hand and also that His hand founded the earth.
And just to show you that the “first and the last” here is not God the Father, we see in Is 48:16 that the Lord God has sent the first and the last with His spirit. Also, the first and the last was there from the first and He also spoke. Sounds like a living heavenly being and definetly not a plan. A plan cannot spread out the heavens with its right hand nor does a plan speak. The Son was alive and active in the creation process.
I hope you can understand this.
God bless,
LUYahshua the Messiah is Not Almighty Yahweh
http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/yahweh_yahshua.htmlBy And Through
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.htmlQuote (Lightenup @ Sep. 16 2008,14:55) Hello Gene and Adam and all, The first and the last here is the Son of God:
Isa 48:12-16
12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
NASUYou can also see here in Hebrews that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of the Son's hands.
Heb 1:8-10
8 But of the Son He says…….
10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASUThe First and the Last is also spoken of here:
Rev 1:17-1917 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
NASUNotice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.
Jesus is the “first and the last”. In Is 48:12-13 it says that the “first and the last” spread out the heavens with His right hand and also that His hand founded the earth.
And just to show you that the “first and the last” here is not God the Father, we see in Is 48:16 that the Lord God has sent the first and the last with His spirit. Also, the first and the last was there from the first and He also spoke. Sounds like a living heavenly being and definetly not a plan. A plan cannot spread out the heavens with its right hand nor does a plan speak. The Son was alive and active in the creation process.
I hope you can understand this.
God bless,
LU
Hi LUExcellent points.
Now since YWHW alone created all things and Yeshua is the creator, then Yeshua is also “YHWH” spoken of in the Hebrew scriptures as you have also pointed out.
Jesus is the God of the OT.
Jesus God of the OT!
Yeshua which means “YHWH is salvation” is YHWH!
Here is an excellent debate on Zech 14 concerning Yeshua being YHWH.
WJ
Hi WJ,
Thanks! The Son was given the name of His Father, that does not make them equal or co-eternal. The Son has a mighty role indeed in the OT I think.
LUHi lU,
Jesus worked in his Father's name and authority.But Jesus is never identified in scripture as having any role on earth before he came as the Christ.
Of course speculation has him shown in several places but speculations are to be pulled down.
The Spirit that inspired him certainly also inspired the prophets before him[1peter1]
Hi Nick,
Jesus worked in His Father's name and authority and also was given His Father's name and authority.You say that “Jesus is never identified in scripture as having any role on earth before he came as the Christ.” Then who is the “Son” in this passage:
Heb 1:8-10
8 But of the Son He says…….
10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASUYou do seem to “pull down” what you refer to as speculations but rather shouldn't you test them with a surrendered heart that doesn't lean on your own understanding. You just might grow deeper in the true knowledge of Christ. If you just dismiss verses that seem to say something contrary to your foundation you can't correct your foundation and make it strong. Do you prefer your own way over God's? It is only through a surrendered heart that one can grow in true knowledge. If the seed falls on rocky soil, the truth is easily blown away and bears no fruit. Let God make your heart fertile ground for His truths. Let God make us all fertile ground for His truths. Amen.
LU
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