JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[terraricca]

EDJ

Quote

Hi T8, I have organized it for you a bit better… “The Word” → “Sharp Sword” → “The Word” (Spirit→Sword→The Word) “his name is called The Word of God” (Rev 19:13) …“The Word” “out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword” (Revelation 19:15) …“Sharp Sword” “the sword of the Spirit, which is “The Word” of God” (Eph 6:17) …“The Word”

I reorganize it for you ;

“his name is called The Word of God” (Rev 19:13) …“The Word” (Jesus Christ)

“out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword” (Revelation 19:15) …“Sharp Sword”(the truth of Gods son on earth)

“the sword of the Spirit, which is “The Word” of God” (Eph 6:17) …“The Word” (all scriptures that tells Jesus Christ teachings and God awareness to his coming.)

this is more accurate,

[limjunus]

Quote (jammin @ Oct. 10 2012,18:09)

limjunus, cant you read gal 4.4??/ LOL the father sent his son! the son did not send himself but the father. your question is non sense LOL

Jammin,

Before you talk and not too much, answer my pending questions on you. Remember, you owe me a lot of answers.

You have post before that you believe that the true God, the Father of Jesus is only one.

Now, you are admitting without shame that the Father sent the son (Jesus Christ). and using the verse Gal. 4:4. and you believing that the son (Jesus Christ) is truly God, by basing the Philippians 2:6.

See your enumeration:

Father – only true God.
Son – Truly God

So therefore, you are not believing that the true God, is not only one, but two truly Gods.

Here is again your another theory:

Jesus Christ did not died because he is truly God, inside the flesh, only the body died.

The very important question is, “If Jesus Christ did not died because he is truly God,inside the flesh but instead only his body died.”

Who is the body raised from the dead by God, and ascended to heaven and sit-down in the right hand of the only true God?

Now, you owe me a lots of answers.

It's time not to talk too much, It's the time to answers “kiddie boy”

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,14:31)

F So your debate is deceitful ,just as the words you using are ambiguous ,right

No, you are the one who is being deceitful in your responding to me on this furum, so you need not respond to me again, because I will not never respond to you again.

This is a prime example in how Pie is shown favortism here in that he may break the rule in lying against others and get away with it.

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

…

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 12 2012,00:46)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,14:31) F So your debate is deceitful ,just as the words you using are ambiguous ,right No, you are the one who is being deceitful in your responding to me on this furum, so you need not respond to me again, because I will not never respond to you again. This is a prime example in how Pie is shown favortism here in that he may break the rule in lying against others and get away with it. WHO IS THE WORD? John Chapter One ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE? Exodus 32 By Voy Wilks 3/9/98 The Pre-existence Philippians 2:5-11 By Voy Wilks 1/29/92 Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? …

*EVER!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Oct. 09 2012,21:36)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,03:37) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:51) God here in Phil 2:6 seems to be a particular type of form and not a particular person. Quote (jammin @ Oct. 07 2012,19:06) paul is talking about nature in phil 2.6 and not a particular person You mean like this? 6 Who, existing with the nature of the species known as “God”,    did not consider equality with the species known as “God” something to be grasped…….. i did not say species mike. i said NATURE!

But look at your words in the quote box above, jammin:

paul is talking about nature in phil 2.6 and not a particular person

If you are NOT talking about the nature of a PARTICULAR PERSON, then you have no choice but to be talking about the nature of a SPECIES of being.

There are no other choices, jammin.  So you can deny “species” if you want, because you realize how ludicrous it sounds when said out loud, but “species” IS what you are talking about – whether or not you bring yourself to say the word.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (limjunus @ Oct. 09 2012,21:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,04:14) You can keep saying “nature”, but what you two are describing is a “SPECIES”, of which Jesus was a member. Mike, Those people are given their own understanding to justify their erroneous beliefs regarding and about the Singularity of God. They could not understand really what they are trying to talk about God? If we agreed with their teaching, we need to accept that the only true God, is sending Himself to the earth, praying to Himself and offering Himself to himself and more worse is, the only true God, died.

Agreed, limjunis. Why is it so simple for us, yet so hard and confusing for them?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (limjunus @ Oct. 09 2012,22:12)

Mike, believe that there are many gods and among so many gods, there is only true God. Jehovah, is the only true God to be worship alone … …. and Jesus Christ, even though he is a god, he should not be worship together with so called gods in this world. Frank Believe that there is only one true God, the Father of Jesus Christ and his apostles/disciples and the other so called gods and lords are not true gods but instead representing the gods of the world. The confusing factors is, the word “gods”, meant to Mike, “that we should recognize that there are existing called gods, even though there are not true God. So the problem between Mike and Frank is, a.) Mike: recognize that the so called gods are existing gods and should not be taken not true gods. b.) Frank: the so called gods should not be recognize as the only true God, instead shall be known the gods as false god. Correct me if I am wrong with my comprehension?

You have summed it up correctly, as far as I can tell, limjunis. As usual, you are very perceptive.

Now, just consider the two final conclusions you came to:

a.) Mike: recognize that the so called gods are existing gods and should not be taken [as] not true gods.

b.) Frank: the so called gods should not be recognize as the only true God, instead shall be known the gods as false god.

Which one of those conclusions allows for Jesus to be called god in scripture (which he is), but DOESN'T allow for Jesus to be a “false god” (which he is not)?

Scripturally speaking, my understanding is the only one that fits the scriptures, yet doesn't have Jesus being a “false god”.

[Ed J]

Hi Mike,

You notice how he refused to say “No” when I asked him the question of species.
He knows that it doesn't sound right and he rejects the very wording he is describing.  

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2012,16:22)

Quote (jammin @ Oct. 09 2012,13:33) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2012,02:41) Hi Jammin, Rather than God being an individual, are you suggesting that “God” is (according to you) a species instead?              <– please answer species: A group subordinate to a genus and containing individuals                    agreeing in some common  attributes  and called by a common name. God bless Ed J i cant read species in the bible. that is just an opinion from men i can read nature..Christ's nature is God. phil 2.6 Hi Jammin, is your answer “No” then? Nature: The inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing Attributes: A quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something. God bless Ed J

Jammin,

So, is your answer “No” then?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Oct. 10 2012,01:09)

you cant ignore the truth boy. the SON is also God by nature. paul said that. the bible says that.

Is that all you have, jammin?  You have been harping about the Bible saying the Son is God by nature since you started this thread.  But it all boils down to a FLAWED translation of the Greek word “morphe” in ONE single scripture.

For example:
Phil 2:6  NWT
who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

English Standard Version (©2001)
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God:

American Standard Version
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Darby Bible Translation
who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God;

English Revised Version
who, being in the form of God, counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,

World English Bible
who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Look at all those Bibles, that DON'T say a word about “nature”, jammin.  What would you do if some Trinitarian-biased translators didn't start to translate the word “morphe” as “nature”, in an effort to force the scriptures into teaching what they WANTED them to teach?  What would you do then?

Pierre is right about you.  You just keep coming back with this “nature” thing, insisting it is taught in the Bible, when it never really was taught by Paul.  The Greek word “morphe” means “outward appearance”, not “nature”.  And the teaching Paul gave us was that Jesus was existing with the outward appearance of God, namely, that he was also a spirit being like the God who created him, before he was made in the likeness of a human being.

Why not try to prove that Jesus is the God he is the Son of with a DIFFERENT scripture for a change?  Your “nature” claim is man-made and flawed, and relies on “God” being a “species” in Phil 2:6. Perhaps you should give the “nature” thing a rest for a while.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 10 2012,12:14)

You fail to realize that my disagreement with you is that you believe that IDOLS/GODS have power when in fact Scripture clearly teaches that they do not.

Scripture actually teaches the opposite of what you teach, Frank.  Many of the gods mentioned in scripture displayed their power.

Consider this scripture:
Acts 16 New International Version 1984
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.

17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”

18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

Who was this “spirit”, Frank?  And by what POWER did this spirit enable this girl to foretell the future accurately?

You need to take off you blinders, and BELIEVE what you are taught in the scriptures, Frank. Satan is called “the god of this age” in scripture, yet you would have us believing that Satan has no power whatsoever. Yet, that which you preach goes against the rest of the scriptures.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2012,18:53)

K I would not call that worship,but give honor

The NWT translates acts like these as “doing obeisance”.  To me, there is a BIG difference between doing obeisance to those you revere, and worshipping the God who created all things.

Do a search of the words “bowed down”, or “bowed before” or “bowed low”, etc.  You will find that RARELY are these translated as “worshipped” when it concerns men, despite the fact that it is the same Hebrew or Greek word that is always translated as “worshipped” when it concerns God.

Here is a good example:

2 Samuel 1:2
On the third day a man arrived from Saul’s camp, with his clothes torn and with dust on his head. When he came to David, he fell to the ground to pay him honor.

The word in Hebrew is “shachah” – the same word translated hundreds of times as “worship” when it concerns Jehovah.

In the Greek LXX version of this same verse, the word used is “proskuneo” – the very same word that is translated hundreds of times as “worship” when it comes to Jehovah.

I challenge anyone on this site to find an English translation that has the word “worship” in 2 Sam 1:2.  They all have “did obeisance”, or “bowed to show reverence”, etc.

I haven't been able to find even ONE that translates the Hebrew word “shachah” as “worship” in this verse.

Why?  It is because the translators know what we all seem to know (even Frank, who used quotation marks around the word “worshipped” in his recent post)……………….  the word “worship”, as we generally understand it, concerns the obeisance given ONLY to God Almighty, and to no one else.

When those same Hebrew and Greek words are used of OTHERS besides God, they are almost without fail translated as “bowed before”, or “did obeisance”, etc.  They are NOT usually translated as “worshipped” unless it is in the case of God Almighty.

Now, here is the dilemma.  Since the Triniatarians believe that Jesus is also God Almighty, they freely translate “proskuneo” as “worshipped” in cases concerning the Father and in cases concerning the Son.

But in the case of anyone else, they opt for the correct translation of “did obeisance”, or “bowed before”.

So, this is my question to you all:

WHY do you suppose no English translation has “worshipped” in 2 Samuel 1:2, but they DO have “worshipped” in the cases concerning Jesus?

It is because these translators know the difference, and they know the generally accepted understanding of the word “worship”.  That's why they translate as something other than “worship” in virtually every case EXCEPT for the cases of Jehovah and Jesus.

If you ever want to read the ACCURATE translation of the “worship” scriptures, turn to the NWT.  They have correctly translated as “did obeisance” in EVERY case EXCEPT for those that concern God Almighty.

This is the correct stance, since we WORSHIP God Almighty alone, and DO OBEISANCE to those who are NOT God Almighty.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,05:28)

EDJ Quote Hi T8, I have organized it for you a bit better… “The Word”  →  “Sharp Sword”  →  “The Word”                                    (Spirit→Sword→The Word) “his name is called The Word of God” (Rev 19:13)                      …“The Word” “out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword” (Revelation 19:15)                …“Sharp Sword” “the sword of the Spirit, which is “The Word” of God” (Eph 6:17)          …“The Word” I reorganize it for you ; “his name is called The Word of God” (Rev 19:13)                      …“The Word” (Jesus Christ) “out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword” (Revelation 19:15)                …“Sharp Sword”(the truth of Gods son on earth) “the sword of the Spirit, which is “The Word” of God” (Eph 6:17)          …“The Word” (all scriptures that tells Jesus Christ teachings and God awareness to his coming.) this is more accurate,

Well done, Pierre!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2012,11:37)

Hi Mike, You notice how he refused to say “No” when I asked him the question of species. He knows that it doesn't sound right and he rejects the very wording he is describing.

Oh yeah, I noticed alright.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:55)

Hi Charles, I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation.

jammin,

What is the NUMERICAL answer to Kathi's question?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,03:25)

Mike, [Godhead] is an accurate translation at the time the KJV was written…………

Please show your expert support that agrees “Godhead” is an accurate translation of these Greek words.

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,12:29)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2012,18:53) K I would not call that worship,but give honor The NWT translates acts like these as “doing obeisance”.  To me, there is a BIG difference between doing obeisance to those you revere, and worshipping the God who created all things. Do a search of the words “bowed down”, or “bowed before” or “bowed low”, etc.  You will find that RARELY are these translated as “worshipped” when it concerns men, despite the fact that it is the same Hebrew or Greek word that is always translated as “worshipped” when it concerns God. Here is a good example: 2 Samuel 1:2 On the third day a man arrived from Saul’s camp, with his clothes torn and with dust on his head. When he came to David, he fell to the ground to pay him honor. The word in Hebrew is “shachah” – the same word translated hundreds of times as “worship” when it concerns Jehovah. In the Greek LXX version of this same verse, the word used is “proskuneo” – the very same word that is translated hundreds of times as “worship” when it comes to Jehovah. I challenge anyone on this site to find an English translation that has the word “worship” in 2 Sam 1:2.  They all have “did obeisance”, or “bowed to show reverence”, etc. I haven't been able to find even ONE that translates the Hebrew word “shachah” as “worship” in this verse. Why?  It is because the translators know what we all seem to know (even Frank, who used quotation marks around the word “worshipped” in his recent post)……………….  the word “worship”, as we generally understand it, concerns the obeisance given ONLY to God Almighty, and to no one else. When those same Hebrew and Greek words are used of OTHERS besides God, they are almost without fail translated as “bowed before”, or “did obeisance”, etc.  They are NOT usually translated as “worshipped” unless it is in the case of God Almighty. Now, here is the dilemma.  Since the Triniatarians believe that Jesus is also God Almighty, they freely translate “proskuneo” as “worshipped” in cases concerning the Father and in cases concerning the Son. But in the case of anyone else, they opt for the correct translation of “did obeisance”, or “bowed before”. So, this is my question to you all: WHY do you suppose no English translation has “worshipped” in 2 Samuel 1:2, but they DO have “worshipped” in the cases concerning Jesus? It is because these translators know the difference, and they know the generally accepted understanding of the word “worship”.  That's why they translate as something other than “worship” in virtually every case EXCEPT for the cases of Jehovah and Jesus. If you ever want to read the ACCURATE translation of the “worship” scriptures, turn to the NWT.  They have correctly translated as “did obeisance” in EVERY case EXCEPT for those that concern God Almighty. This is the correct stance, since we WORSHIP God Almighty alone, and DO OBEISANCE to those who are NOT God Almighty.

Mike

Kerwin and frank know that this is why they have deceit in them
The truth in them as told them so but because my English andicapt they play the devil game

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,03:34)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2012,22:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:55) Hi Charles, I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation. I'd be interested to hear Charles' and jammin's answer to that question. Well guys?  What's the NUMERICAL answer to Kathi's question? Mike, There are many gods whether in heaven or on earth; but to us there is but one God; Jehovah, the Lord of Multitudes, the Source of all good things.

Kerwin,

I agree with what you've posted, because it is scriptural.  But knowing that Jesus is called a god in scripture, what is your NUMERICAL answer to Kathi's question?

[carmel]

mikeboll64,Oct. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

Absolutely.  The “logical reasoning” of the Israelites is that a lamb woud be sacrificed to atone for the sins of human beings.

Mike,

NO, NO, NO, That is not  what I asked.
I ASKED:
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD  RESPECTED OUR LOGICAL REASONING IN ORDER TO REDEEM US???
And your answer was ABSOLUTELY!!!
Mike WITH EVERY RESPECT, you really gone astray!!!
How far are you going with your corrupted MENTALITY
SO:
First: WE are not the Israelites.
Second: we are the GENTILES.
Third: the Israelite were HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE.
Fourth: What you stated was not the Israelite LOGICAL REASONING.
Fifth :  What you stated was the scriptural reasoning, God’s logical reasoning, which the Israelite, ALTHOUGH IT’S ALREADY HAPPENED  they never believed in it, even up to this date.
Sixth: The Israelite are still waiting for the MESSIAH.

The Israelite logical reasoning was to ignore their own God, and God scattered them, and abandoned them.

Read:

Zechariah 1:3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. 4Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, saith the LORD.
THAT WAS THE ISAELITES’ LOGICAL REASONING OK???

Seventh: We as GENTILES logically reasoned that WE SIN, SIN, SIN, SIN, SIN, AND NEVER STOP SINNING.TILL THIS VERY DAY!!

1Peter 2:10 Who in time past were not a people: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy; but now have obtained mercy.

We were not even a people we were devils in flesh.

TELL ME MIKE WHY DID THE GENTILES CRUCFIED JESUS???
DEFINITELY NOT BECAUSE HE RESPECTED THEIR LOGICAL REASONING!!!

Now read God’s logical reasoning:
Matthew 5: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Is the above OUR LOGICAL REASONING???
Do you think that God respected human’s logical reasoning since His Son proclaimed the opposite

If we are an opposite element of God, we would also logically reason  the opposite.

Peace and love in Jesus.
Charles

[carmel]

mikeboll64,Oct. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD RESPECTED THE LOGICAL REASONING REGARDING THE OT.SCRIPTURE I POSTED??? YES or NO??? Which scripture?

This Mike,

Judges 7:And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee

ARE TOO MANY

for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me. 3Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand.

4And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet

TOO MANY;

bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go. 5So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink. 6And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water. 7And the LORD said unto Gideon,

By the

THREE HUNDRED MEN

that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.

8So the people took victuals in their hand, and their trumpets: and he sent all the rest of Israel every man unto his tent, and retained those three hundred men: and the host of Midian was beneath him in the valley.

[mikeboll64]

Charles,

There are many things wrong with your post. For one, Peter, John, Paul, Thomas, and the others WERE Israelites who DID understand the notion of sacrificing a LAMB to atone for the sins of humans.

THOSE DISCIPLES were NOT Gentiles, Charles.

I don't have the time or patience to wade through the rest of your imaginative ponderings.

The bottom line is YES, God for sure counts on us using our HUMAN LOGIC to understand the things He taught us through scripture.

He does NOT expect us to imagine UNSCRIPTURAL doctrines, and explain them as “true” by saying, We cannot understand the ways of God.

We are to search the scriptures to find out God's truth. And we do that by using our GOD-GIVEN human logic.

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