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Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 22 2012,00:19) Mike here is the part of your post. Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 20 2012,22:07) You have two option: Yes or No. meaning, accept it or rejected it.
And Jesus said ALL authority was given him. That means God has no more authority at all, because it ALL was given to JesusYou have missed the right understanding Mike.
I understand it just fine, limjunis. I understand that “all authority” is EMPHATICAL, and not LITERAL.My point in all this is to teach you that “only true God” is also EMPHATICAL, and not LITERAL.
You and Frank agree that if Jesus is called “god” in scripture, it just means he is mighty. THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG! The words “el” and “theos” mean “mighty one”. And Jesus being a god does NOT mean he is the Almighty God – or even equal to the Almighty God.
But “only true God” certainly doesn't mean Jesus is a “false god” either.
Perhaps someday you'll align your understanding with the scriptures, and stop trying to make the scriptures fit around the 21st century understanding of the word “god”.
Until then, it seems to me that I've tried to educate you on the matter, and there's really nothing more I can do.
peace and understanding,
mikeQuote (limjunus @ Sep. 22 2012,00:28) Mike here your simple question. Do you believe that Jesus is ever called “god” in the scriptures? YES or NO?
The question could not be answer by a mere Yes or No.
Sure it can. And the answer is “YES“.Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2012,18:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2012,22:30) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,03:19) Kathi, That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it……………
John 1:18 speaks about Jesus – just like the rest of John 1.
Mike,Your words break Scripture as 1 Corinthians 2:11 makes clear that it is only the Spirit and those it reveals them to, that know the things of God. The Spirit (the one) has the knowledge and shares it with Jesus (the man) and through him with all men. The knowledge does not start at Jesus; but at the Spirit; which is a part of God, as a man's spirit is a part of him.
So then Jesus DIDN'T come to teach us about God?
Kerwin, I'm already aware that there is no end to the lengths to which you will go to make the scriptures form around your own wishes.
Perhaps you should read verses 15-18 again. They are ALL about Jesus.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2012,20:54) The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God.
So now the Spirit is the actual Son of God, and that Son of God came to dwell within Jesus, making him the Son?Come on, Kerwin.
Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 22 2012,22:33) Do not forget, God, allowing Jesus Christ to be worship.
Jesus is never said to have been “worshiped” in any scripture. The Greek word “proskuneo” can either refer to the worship that is only due God, or the act of bowing down to another person to show reverence.The word is used all throughout scripture to show how people “bowed down” before King David, Samuel, Abraham, etc.
It only means “worship” when it refers to Jehovah or those who worship other gods as their god.
In the case of Jesus, it is properly translated as “did obeisance to” – like the NWT renders it. Jesus himself told us who ALONE to worship in Matthew 4:10.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,08:48) Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 22 2012,22:33) Do not forget, God, allowing Jesus Christ to be worship.
Jesus is never said to have been “worshiped” in any scripture. The Greek word “proskuneo” can either refer to the worship that is only due God, or the act of bowing down to another person to show reverence.The word is used all throughout scripture to show how people “bowed down” before King David, Samuel, Abraham, etc.
It only means “worship” when it refers to Jehovah or those who worship other gods as their god.
In the case of Jesus, it is properly translated as “did obeisance to” – like the NWT renders it. Jesus himself told us who ALONE to worship in Matthew 4:10.
the translators of NWT have no enough knowledge about greek mike.
that is the only version that you can use to support your imagination.they worshiped jesus. that is what the bible says
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,03:00) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2012,18:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2012,22:30) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,03:19) Kathi, That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it……………
John 1:18 speaks about Jesus – just like the rest of John 1.
Mike,Your words break Scripture as 1 Corinthians 2:11 makes clear that it is only the Spirit and those it reveals them to, that know the things of God. The Spirit (the one) has the knowledge and shares it with Jesus (the man) and through him with all men. The knowledge does not start at Jesus; but at the Spirit; which is a part of God, as a man's spirit is a part of him.
So then Jesus DIDN'T come to teach us about God?Kerwin, I'm already aware that there is no end to the lengths to which you will go to make the scriptures form around your own wishes.
Perhaps you should read verses 15-18 again. They are ALL about Jesus.
Mike,The Spirit is not a person which is why I stated it was personified as the Son.
You either believe 1 Corinthians 2:11's claim that no one but the Spirit knows the things of Jehovah or you do not. If you do then you believe no one can know the things of Jehovah unless the Spirit reveals them to him. John 1:18 claims that no one but the Son knows God; unless the Son reveals him to that individual.
No one can know Jehovah except the Spirit reveals him; as how can you know Jehovah if you do not know the things of Jehovah.
Jesus knows Jehovah because the Spirit revealed the things of Jehovah to him. Haven't you read that Jehovah's children are sired by receiving the Spirit of the Son. Why do you think it is any different with Jesus?
Galatians 4:6
King James Version (KJV)6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Quote (jammin @ Sep. 23 2012,17:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,08:48) Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 22 2012,22:33) Do not forget, God, allowing Jesus Christ to be worship.
Jesus is never said to have been “worshiped” in any scripture. The Greek word “proskuneo” can either refer to the worship that is only due God, or the act of bowing down to another person to show reverence.The word is used all throughout scripture to show how people “bowed down” before King David, Samuel, Abraham, etc.
It only means “worship” when it refers to Jehovah or those who worship other gods as their god.
In the case of Jesus, it is properly translated as “did obeisance to” – like the NWT renders it. Jesus himself told us who ALONE to worship in Matthew 4:10.
the translators of NWT have no enough knowledge about greek mike.
that is the only version that you can use to support your imagination.they worshiped jesus. that is what the bible says
That's absolutely right jammin,
I showed Mike at least 17 passages in the NT that show that Jesus was worshiped. He was worshiped as the Son of God…clearly!It is how Mike handles those scriptures that lead me to believe that he would argue with Jesus if Jesus were on here.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2012,13:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,10:21) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,04:19) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,11:29) Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 18 2012,23:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10) limjunus,
Jesus IS the true only begotten God.
Lightenup,The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B]“not begotten God”.
limjunus,Scripture disagrees with you:
John 1:18
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Kathi,That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it; which is why it uses the word “one”. It is the Spirit that knows the deep things of God; and those to whom the Spirit reveals them. Jesus is his primary student and the man by whom all others come to know God.
Hi Kerwin,
I do not see anything like what you say in the early church's understanding of this verse. The Son is said to be the 'firstborn' and the Holy Spirit is not said to the 'firstborn.'God bless!
Kathi,I know little of such writings you speak of but I do know Scripture declares the Spirit is the only one that knows the things of God and reveals them to whom it chooses.
Jesus is the only man that knows the things of God because the Spirit revealed them to him. In union with the Spirit he then reveals them to who he chooses.
There cannot be two that know the things of God until the Spirit has revealed them to the second. At that point there are two that know, not one. John 1:18 speaks of the first one in 1 Corinthians 2:11 and clearly that is also the one John 1:18 speaks of; and therefore he is calling the Spirit the Son.
Perhaps it will help to think of it this way; The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God.
Kerwin,Let us face the truth. The wills of God, has been twisted by His No. 1-enemy, Satan and his angels;the Dragon, the Beast, the false Prophet and the three unclean spirits;demon spirit; decieving the kings and the whole world. Gathering them for a battle agaisnt the great day of the Almighty God. (Ref: Revelation 16:13-14 NKJV)
he Battle mentioned in Revelation 16:14, is the battle against the “false doctrines” of the devil” who deceived the whole world, including the Kings (supporting the false doctrines).
The following are the very strong evidences with what I have trying to share about. It is not just plain reasoning and arguments from my brain and from the unseen world of darkness. It is the very powerful weapon of Christ, the words of God, taken from the Bible.
As what apostle Paul said: Ephesians 6:12 New Living Translation (NLT)
“For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies (actual wars in this visible world), but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.”
Our battle is against what? (a.) Against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, (b.) against mighty powers in the dark world, (c.) against the evil spirits in the heavenly places. (Rev. 16:13-14)
Kerwin,
Matt 11: 27“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 24 2012,16:09) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2012,13:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,10:21) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,04:19) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,11:29) Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 18 2012,23:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10) limjunus,
Jesus IS the true only begotten God.
Lightenup,The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B]“not begotten God”.
limjunus,Scripture disagrees with you:
John 1:18
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Kathi,That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it; which is why it uses the word “one”. It is the Spirit that knows the deep things of God; and those to whom the Spirit reveals them. Jesus is his primary student and the man by whom all others come to know God.
Hi Kerwin,
I do not see anything like what you say in the early church's understanding of this verse. The Son is said to be the 'firstborn' and the Holy Spirit is not said to the 'firstborn.'God bless!
Kathi,I know little of such writings you speak of but I do know Scripture declares the Spirit is the only one that knows the things of God and reveals them to whom it chooses.
Jesus is the only man that knows the things of God because the Spirit revealed them to him. In union with the Spirit he then reveals them to who he chooses.
There cannot be two that know the things of God until the Spirit has revealed them to the second. At that point there are two that know, not one. John 1:18 speaks of the first one in 1 Corinthians 2:11 and clearly that is also the one John 1:18 speaks of; and therefore he is calling the Spirit the Son.
Perhaps it will help to think of it this way; The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God.
Kerwin,Let us face the truth. The wills of God, has been twisted by His No. 1-enemy, Satan and his angels;the Dragon, the Beast, the false Prophet and the three unclean spirits;demon spirit; decieving the kings and the whole world. Gathering them for a battle agaisnt the great day of the Almighty God. (Ref: Revelation 16:13-14 NKJV)
he Battle mentioned in Revelation 16:14, is the battle against the “false doctrines” of the devil” who deceived the whole world, including the Kings (supporting the false doctrines).
The following are the very strong evidences with what I have trying to share about. It is not just plain reasoning and arguments from my brain and from the unseen world of darkness. It is the very powerful weapon of Christ, the words of God, taken from the Bible.
As what apostle Paul said: Ephesians 6:12 New Living Translation (NLT)
“For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies (actual wars in this visible world), but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.”
Our battle is against what? (a.) Against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, (b.) against mighty powers in the dark world, (c.) against the evil spirits in the heavenly places. (Rev. 16:13-14)
you are using again the NLT.
NLT believes Christ is God but you dont LOLmake your own version LOL
The salvation army of God, is on the mission. Their main task is to rescue the children of God, under the captivity of the prince of darkness.
Saving the children of God, by removing the obstacles in the eyes of their hearts (corrupted minds made by the prince of darkness).
The gospel of Christ is the power of God, for the salvation; hearing the words (righteousness) of God, is the key.
13. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” 14. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15. And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
17. So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.15. And how shall they preach unless they are sent?
mikeboll64,Sep. wrote:[/quote]
Quote The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God. Kerwin,
How far are you going with your gnostic belief??
JESUS HIMSELF CONFIRMED THAT
HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN
John6:38 For I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me
John 16:28 I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (jammin @ Sep. 24 2012,16:25) Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 24 2012,16:09) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2012,13:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,10:21) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,04:19) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,11:29) Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 18 2012,23:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10) limjunus,
Jesus IS the true only begotten God.
Lightenup,The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B]“not begotten God”.
limjunus,Scripture disagrees with you:
John 1:18
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Kathi,That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it; which is why it uses the word “one”. It is the Spirit that knows the deep things of God; and those to whom the Spirit reveals them. Jesus is his primary student and the man by whom all others come to know God.
Hi Kerwin,
I do not see anything like what you say in the early church's understanding of this verse. The Son is said to be the 'firstborn' and the Holy Spirit is not said to the 'firstborn.'God bless!
Kathi,I know little of such writings you speak of but I do know Scripture declares the Spirit is the only one that knows the things of God and reveals them to whom it chooses.
Jesus is the only man that knows the things of God because the Spirit revealed them to him. In union with the Spirit he then reveals them to who he chooses.
There cannot be two that know the things of God until the Spirit has revealed them to the second. At that point there are two that know, not one. John 1:18 speaks of the first one in 1 Corinthians 2:11 and clearly that is also the one John 1:18 speaks of; and therefore he is calling the Spirit the Son.
Perhaps it will help to think of it this way; The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God.
Kerwin,Let us face the truth. The wills of God, has been twisted by His No. 1-enemy, Satan and his angels;the Dragon, the Beast, the false Prophet and the three unclean spirits;demon spirit; decieving the kings and the whole world. Gathering them for a battle agaisnt the great day of the Almighty God. (Ref: Revelation 16:13-14 NKJV)
he Battle mentioned in Revelation 16:14, is the battle against the “false doctrines” of the devil” who deceived the whole world, including the Kings (supporting the false doctrines).
The following are the very strong evidences with what I have trying to share about. It is not just plain reasoning and arguments from my brain and from the unseen world of darkness. It is the very powerful weapon of Christ, the words of God, taken from the Bible.
As what apostle Paul said: Ephesians 6:12 New Living Translation (NLT)
“For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies (actual wars in this visible world), but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.”
Our battle is against what? (a.) Against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, (b.) against mighty powers in the dark world, (c.) against the evil spirits in the heavenly places. (Rev. 16:13-14)
you are using again the NLT.
NLT believes Christ is God but you dont LOLmake your own version LOL
Jammin,NLT is not believing that Jesus Christ is God.
The person who is reading the NLT like you, is the one saying Jesus Christ is true God.
By the way, you owe me a lot of answers.
Why until now you have failed to answer my questions?
Is that meant by failing to answer my question is your silent admission that you are wrong with your Bible understanding?
So, if not, why you can not able to answer?
Quote (carmel @ Sep. 24 2012,16:59) mikeboll64,Sep. wrote:[/quote]
Quote The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God. Kerwin,
How far are you going with your gnostic belief??
JESUS HIMSELF CONFIRMED THAT
HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN
John6:38 For I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me
John 16:28 I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Charlie,It does not literally meant.
It is metaphorical statement.
If I will follow your argument that Jesus Christ is literally come down from heaven to prove that he is the true God, that we are talking about.
Meaning, by literally. There is no God, in heaven. He went down from heaven and live here on earth.
As what we have learned, the true God, is only One and could not be divided.
kerwin,Sep. wrote:[/quote]
Quote John 1:18 claims that no one but the Son knows God; unless the Son reveals him to that individual.
Kerwin,
You lost control of yourself:
The Son NOT ONLY KNOWS GOD, BUT HE ALSO IS ETERNALLY ONE WITH GOD.
YOU LEFT OUT THE MOST IMPORTANT BIT OF THAT SCRIPTURE WHICH SAYS:
who is in the bosom of the Father
NOTICE ALTHOUGH JESUS WAS IN THE WORLD, JOHN STILL STATED :
WHO IS IN THE BOSSOM OF THE FATHER.
SO JESUS NEVER RECEIVED THE SPIRIT, BUT HE HIMSELF IS THE SPIRIT, WHO CAME DIRECTLY FROM THE FATHER,AND STILL IN THE FATHER.
The only ELEMENT which Jesus received was in BAPTIZM WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER SUPPLIED HIM WITH THE FULL POWER TO ACCOMPLISH HIS MISSION.
THIS IS CONFIRMED ON THE CROSS WHEN JESUS CRIED OUT AND SAID:
“FATHER WHY HAVE YOU ABANDONED ME”
IN ORDER FOR US TO BE AWARE THAT THE FATHER'S SPIRIT WAS WITHIN JESUS ALL THE TIME!!
John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
To all,
I will close my post in this thread with these verses.
Isa. 43:10 NKJV
10. “You are My witnesses,” says the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.Mal. 2:10 NKJV
10. Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?John 17:1-3 NKJV
1. Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2. as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.1 Cor. 8:4,6 NKJV
4. Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
6. yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.I will go also to another important matter or I shall make a new thread.
Thank you very much for allowing me with you here with this thread. John 1:1
God bless you all.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2012,11:15) Kerwin,
Matt 11: 27“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Kathi,Think of the fact that sons of God are made by the Spirit; which reveals the things of Jehovah to them.
Galatians 4:6
King James Version (KJV)6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Jesus tells us that Jehovah handed all things over to him and 1 Corinthians teaches us that the Spirit reveals these things to us. Just as verse 10 teaches us when applied to Jesus; God revealed all things to him by the the Spirit of the Son. It is the Spirit of the Son that he speaks of in the rest of Matthew 11:27. That Spirit makes him the Son. In this way 1 Corinthian 2 does not conflict with either John 1:18 or Matthew 11:27.
1 Corinthians 2:9-10
King James Version (KJV)9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
If Scripture speaks of the human knowing all things it is speaking of Jesus but if it speaks of “one” knowing all things then it is speaking of the Spirit.
Quote (carmel @ Sep. 24 2012,11:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,08:40) Quote The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God. Kerwin,
How far are you going with your gnostic belief??
JESUS HIMSELF CONFIRMED THAT
HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN
John6:38 For I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me
John 16:28 I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Carmel,The Gnostics seek the enlightenment of knowledge believing they will be saved from the material world through the accumulation of knowledge.
I believe we are saved from our sins by the power of Jehovah through faith in Jesus Christ.
You voiced the idea that John 1:18 is speaking both of Jesus and the Spirit as you advance the idea they are one and the same entity.
Do you believe that the Spirit was conceived and born a human?
Do you believe Jesus' body was not conceived in Mary but instead came down from above?
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 25 2012,04:17) Quote (carmel @ Sep. 24 2012,11:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,08:40) Quote The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God. Kerwin,
How far are you going with your gnostic belief??
JESUS HIMSELF CONFIRMED THAT
HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN
John6:38 For I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me
John 16:28 I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Carmel,The Gnostics seek the enlightenment of knowledge believing they will be saved from the material world through the accumulation of knowledge.
I believe we are saved from our sins by the power of Jehovah through faith in Jesus Christ.
You voiced the idea that John 1:18 is speaking both of Jesus and the Spirit as you advance the idea they are one and the same entity.
Do you believe that the Spirit was conceived and born a human?
Do you believe Jesus' body was not conceived in Mary but instead came down from above?
kQuote The Gnostics seek the enlightenment of knowledge believing they will be saved from the material world through the accumulation of knowledge. the Gnostic's LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT THEY KNOW ,AND THAT THEY ARE THE ENLIGHTEMENT OF THE WORLD ,THIS IS WHAT IS IN THEIR MIND OR SPIRIT ,BUT ALL IS FROM MEN ,SO THEY ARE THE SEEKERS THAT NEVER COMES TO THE FULL UNDERSTANDING TO BE ABLE TO BE SAVED BY THE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST ,
BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY KNOW BETTER.HUMILITY IS NOT ONE OF THEIR BETTER QUALITIES
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