JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[jammin]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 02 2012,07:00)

Quote (jammin @ Sep. 02 2012,01:01) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 31 2012,23:53) Hi Jammin, I do. “The Word was God” (John 1:1) “God was in Christ” (2Cor. 5:19) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org the verse is correct. just do not add your imagination ed. rule #1 read the context you do not know that ed Hi Jammin, “Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” (Isaiah 28:9-13) “And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15-16) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

that verse is applicable to you ed.

let me post the whole john 1.1-14
John 1:1-14

New Life Version (NLV)
Christ Lived Before the World Was Made

1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 He made all things. Nothing was made without Him making it. 4 Life began by Him. His Life was the Light for men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness. The darkness has never been able to put out the Light.
John the Baptist Tells of the Coming of Christ

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came to tell what he knew about the Light so that all men might believe through him. 8 John was not the Light, but he was sent to tell about the Light.

9 This true Light, coming into the world, gives light to every man. 10 He came into the world. The world was made by Him, but it did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, but His own did not receive Him. 12 He gave the right and the power to become children of God to those who received Him. He gave this to those who put their trust in His name. 13 These children of God were not born of blood and of flesh and of man’s desires, but they were born of God. 14 Christ became human flesh and lived among us. We saw His shining-greatness. This greatness is given only to a much-loved Son from His Father. He was full of loving-favor and truth.

do you see that ed???
that is very clear in the bible. the Word is Christ.you do not need to jump to 2 cor to insert your imagination.
i read the context of the bible and it says that the Word is the son of God/Christ.

that is the right way to read your bible.

study hard boy

[Ed J]

Hi Jammin,

Those words were added in and you know it;
mans doctrines are very important to you, aye?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[carmel]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,08:38)

Quote (carmel @ Sep. 01 2012,13:37) Mike, Literally ” Son of God ” Spiritually  “GOD”. No Charles, “Son OF God” means exactly what it sounds like.  And just as the “son OF the President” is not also the President himself, the Son OF God is not also the God he is the Son OF. One more thing: Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Not only did Satan see Jehovah, but he had a long conversation with Him about Job.  It's right there in the scriptures for all to to see.

Quote

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them

Mike,

you need milk not meat

THE WORD IS LORD NOT GOD THE MOST HIGH.

AND THERE ARE MANY GODS AND MANY LORDS.

HEBREWS 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

SO GOD NEVER SPOKE TO SATAN OR TO ANYBODY DIRECTLY.

HE SPOKE TO JOB.

GOD WAS NEVER EVER VISIBLE TO ANY BODY.

THE SON REVEALED HIM.

AND SATAN WAS NOT ALLOWED TO BE AWARE OF IT,SINCE HE WAS IN CONFLICT WITH HIM AND WANTED TO KILL THE MESSIAH. GOD HIMSELF IN FLESH.

[terraricca]

Quote (carmel @ Sep. 03 2012,00:30)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,08:38) Quote (carmel @ Sep. 01 2012,13:37) Mike, Literally ” Son of God ” Spiritually  “GOD”. No Charles, “Son OF God” means exactly what it sounds like.  And just as the “son OF the President” is not also the President himself, the Son OF God is not also the God he is the Son OF. One more thing: Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Not only did Satan see Jehovah, but he had a long conversation with Him about Job.  It's right there in the scriptures for all to to see. Quote Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them Mike, you need milk not meat THE WORD IS LORD NOT GOD THE MOST HIGH. AND THERE ARE MANY GODS AND MANY LORDS. HEBREWS 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,     SO GOD NEVER SPOKE TO SATAN OR TO ANYBODY DIRECTLY. HE SPOKE TO JOB. GOD WAS NEVER EVER VISIBLE TO ANY BODY. THE SON REVEALED HIM. AND SATAN WAS NOT ALLOWED TO BE AWARE OF IT,SINCE HE WAS IN CONFLICT WITH HIM AND WANTED TO KILL THE MESSIAH. GOD HIMSELF IN FLESH.

charles

were have you study

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

did not men change the name of GOD for LORD ,you beating the air friend

[mikeboll64]

Quote (carmel @ Sep. 02 2012,00:30)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them Mike, you need milk not meat THE WORD IS LORD NOT GOD THE MOST HIGH.

The word is actually “YHWH”, which is the personal name for God Most High. And yes, Satan came into His presence along with all the other angels, and had a long conversation with Him about Job.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,19:44)

Hi Mike, (I have reposed this for you) here is how it lines up… And the Word [HolySpirit] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld [the HolySpirit's] his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

Okay Ed. And since you claim that the Holy Spirit of God actually IS God Most High, let me readjust your paraphrase for you:

And the HolySpirit/God Most High was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld the HolySpirit's/God Most High's glory, the glory as of
the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Why would God Most High dwell on earth with the glory of “THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER”, Ed?

[Ed J]

HolySpirit/God Most High's spirit

[Ed J]

Hi Mike,

                   The HolySpirit's glory is seen in his children.
       As “The Word” begot Jesus so also does “The Word” beget us

      the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14) com-
      pared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

      The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
      maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)

      1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
      incorruptible, by “The Word” of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

      Of his own will begat he us with “The Word” of truth,
      that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Biblical pre-existence

We fully realize that questioning the pre-existence of the “person” Yeshua places us considerably outside the mainstream. However, as previously mentioned, when we are dealing with a God that has the ability to “… call things that are not as though they are” — we must be careful not to project literal meaning to things that He intended as figurative. That the perpetrators of the Trinitarian view are inconsistent when they apply pre-existence only to the Anointed Yeshua is easily proven.

There are several people in the Bible that were described as pre-existing. King David was one of those. The Psalmist describes his pre-existence in Psalm 139:14-16:

“I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them” (emphasis mine).

While this Psalm is a remarkable description of the power and planning of the great YEHOVAH God, no theologian tries to literalize David's pre-existence from this text. How did David pre-exist? That's right, in the Mind and foreknowledge of YEHOVAH God.

Jeremiah is also similarly alluded to —

Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I sanctified you and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Jer. 1: 4-5, emphasis mine).

Could not the above scriptures be construed to mean that Jeremiah pre-existed in some “spiritual” form before he came to inhabit his earthly body? After all, YEHOVAH “knew” him before his birth and also “sanctified” him before the womb, right? Or does it make more sense that YEHOVAH was saying that he was calling “things that are not as though they are”?

The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medean Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as YEHOVAH's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Judahites:

Who says of Cyrus, He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut (Is. 44:28- 45:1, NKJV emphasis mine).

As you can see for yourself, in this example Cyrus had YEHOVAH's anointing to perform good things for the Judahites that were in Babylonian captivity. He was the one that authorized their return to Palestine to rebuild the walls and temple of Jerusalem that had been razed by the forces of Nebuchadnezzar, first king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire circa 586 BC. As remarkable in scope as is the prophesy of Isaiah that recorded these events almost two centuries before they occurred, no theologian tries to make the pre-existence of Cyrus literal. So WHY do this with the Messiah? Are you getting the point?

Even Paul alludes to a similar pre-existence as Jeremiah's in Galatians 1:15-16 by saying,

But when it was well-pleasing to the one who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me (on account of his generosity) to reveal his son to me, so that I might announce him to the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood.

So what can we say to all of this? Simply this. The scriptures that are used to prove that Yeshua of Nazareth pre-existed also fall into the same category. It should also be stressed that the literal pre-existence of the Anointed is in no way necessary to our salvation! It is only relevant to the view of the “Holy Trinity”. This view creates the difficulty of explaining how that God is one and yet two or three. Do you remember discussing this question in its various forms and solutions? Obsession with a particular theory will cause one to interpret every scripture possible within the context of that theory. Such has been the effect of the “Holy Trinity” view on scholars for generations.

Pre-Existence Of The Anointed Not Required

Let's prove together that the literal pre-existence of the Messiah is not required to accomplish the purposes for which he was anointed. In the same way that Cyrus' pre-existence was not a requirement to carry out the pre-existing purposes of YEHOVAH God, the same can be said concerning Yeshua, the Anointed. Let's also number them so we can keep track.

1) His pre-existence was not required for his person and/or personality as the Anointed. He was certainly “material” before his death and even emphasized his continued “materiality” after his resurrection. Luke 24:39 records it thus:

Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.

Milton Burtt makes a very appropriate observation concerning this subject:

To theorize at this point and try to imagine an immaterial pre-existent personality distinct from the body is nothing short of subtle spiritualism (op. cit., p. 7).

2) The pre-existence of the Messiah was also NOT required for him to be the “only begotten son” of YEHOVAH God. The scriptures clearly record that he was born of the woman Mary — his father being Joseph the carpenter (Luke 4:22). He had a NORMAL, HUMAN BIRTH! For the same reason, however, that Adam's pre-existence was NOT required for him to be physically created by YEHOVAH God, neither did the Messiah (the “last Adam”) need to pre-exist to be spiritually “begotten” of the father. I doubt whether any would argue that Adam did not pre-exist in the Mind of YEHOVAH before his “advent,” so why should the Messiah NOT also have pre-existed in YEHOVAH's Mind before his “advent”? As you can see, the uniqueness of both Adam and the Messiah need have nothing whatsoever to do with their personal pre-existence, but rather with the existence of an omniscient Almighty God Who planned them in his mind from before Creation.

3) Pre-existence was not essential for the power resident in the Anointed Yeshua. It was by the power of YEHOVAH's spirit (or breath) that the Messiah performed signs after his anointing. The Messiah said,

But if I am casting out spirit beings by the spirit of God, God's kingdom has appeared to you (Matt. 12:28, emphasis mine).

This truth is echoed and placed in the context of “anointing” power by Peter in Acts 10:38:

[You know] how God anointed that Yeshua from Nazareth with holy breath and power, who went about doing good deeds and healing all those who were oppressed by the Accuser, because God was with him (emphasis mine).

As we can see, without the “anointing” of YEHOVAH God and the fact that “God was with him” he would have been powerless. This engenders the question of how the omnipotent God became powerless in the first place. We might as well turn to the old enigma that asks, “Could YEHOVAH God create a rock that He was unable to lift?”

4) Pre-existence was also not involved in the atonement of the Anointed nor was it at all necessary. On the contrary, human existence was what was called for. Peter taught plainly that Christians were redeemed by the blood of the Messiah —

On the contrary, you were delivered with the valuable, spotless and unblemished blood of a 'lamb' — that is, the Anointed One's blood (1 Pet. 1:19).

In this, Peter was echoing the pattern of atonement laid down in the Old Testament system as a shadow and type of what was to come. “It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul” (Lev. 17:11). In fact, the Ano
inted's humanity is what is being stressed in his subsequent sacrifice as the fulfillment of the old by the Hebrew writer. After making it clear that the blood of bulls and goats would not suffice for atonement, the writer posits that human flesh and blood was required —

Therefore, brothers, since we have freedom of speech by the blood of Yeshua, to the point of entering the holy places (By his blood he made new for us a new and living way through the veil, which is, his flesh), and since we have a great priest over God's house, we should come near…. (Heb. 10:19-21, emphasis mine).

As everyone knows, blood and flesh are characteristics of human and earthly organisms and certainly require no pre-existence.

5) Pre-existence was not an essential requisite for the knowledge (revelation) that the Messiah received. It should be noted that the Messiah is referred to by Moses as a prophet like himself (Deut. 18:15). As Moses received his power and knowledge through YEHOVAH, the same was true of the Anointed Yeshua. Luke explains his human mental capacity as he grows in wisdom, knowledge and favor in Luke 2:52. There is no record of the Messiah performing any miracles or speaking prophetically before his baptism by John when the spirit of YEHOVAH God descended upon him. It was immediately thereafter that Luke connects the power of YEHOVAH with the Messiah. After his baptism and testing by the Adversary, Luke notes that the Messiah,

… returned in the power of the spirit to Galilee, and a report of him went out through all the surrounding region (Luke 4:14, emphasis mine).

It was from this very context that Luke records the remarkable confrontation between the Messiah and the townspeople of his youth. Luke says,

So he came to Nazareth where he had been brought up. And according to the custom, he entered the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read…. he found the place where it was written: 'The Lord's breath is upon me. On account of this, he has anointed me to an- nounce a good message to the poor; he has sent me forth to herald a release to the captives and a restoration of sight to the blind; to send forth in freedom those who had been crushed; to herald the Lord's acceptable year (Luke 4:16-19).

The next verse records the rapt attention paid to him by those listening. Why, all of a sudden, did they give him such scrutiny? Because of his newly required reputation! News of him had preceded his return to Nazareth (Luke 4:14). It was after the Messiah's “anointing” that he was able to receive their undivided attention and it was only then that he said,

Today this writing is fulfilled in your hearing (Luke 4:21, emphasis mine).

His neighbors were flabbergasted by what had transpired. The people that had known him and his mother and father demonstrate undeniably that the Messiah had never previously exercised prophetic or miraculous abilities. “Today”, says the Messiah, this writing is fulfilled.

What occurred required NO pre-existence of any kind any more than did the calling of Moses, Amos, or any other prophet singled out by YEHOVAH God to receive power and/or revelation. And as previously mentioned, the Messiah often described his teaching as not his own but his Father's. There could be much more said about the character of the Anointed Yeshua and the honor, power, and glory that he received from his Father, but none of these require pre-existence. On the contrary, they argue against pre-existence. If the Messiah was God, he would not have needed to be given anything at all. Some have argued that all the things received by him were already his by right. If that was the case and they were already his — then how did he receive them?

This question falls into the same category as the question that has bothered generations of Christians, viz how can God be one and also two or three? As before mentioned, scriptures are often interpreted in accordance with a persons pre-conceived notions — his paradigm. Burtt put it like this: “We become so obsessed with a certain theory that we read it into every passage in the Bible” (ibid., p. 14).
SOURCE

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

…

[terraricca]

f

HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU PASTE THAT COMMENT OF YOUR ,?

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2012,12:29)

Biblical pre-existence We fully realize that questioning the pre-existence of the “person” Yeshua places us considerably outside the mainstream. However, as previously mentioned, when we are dealing with a God that has the ability to “… call things that are not as though they are” — we must be careful not to project literal meaning to things that He intended as figurative. That the perpetrators of the Trinitarian view are inconsistent when they apply pre-existence only to the Anointed Yeshua is easily proven. There are several people in the Bible that were described as pre-existing. King David was one of those. The Psalmist describes his pre-existence in Psalm 139:14-16: “I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them” (emphasis mine). While this Psalm is a remarkable description of the power and planning of the great YEHOVAH God, no theologian tries to literalize David's pre-existence from this text. How did David pre-exist? That's right, in the Mind and foreknowledge of YEHOVAH God. Jeremiah is also similarly alluded to — Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I sanctified you and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Jer. 1: 4-5, emphasis mine). Could not the above scriptures be construed to mean that Jeremiah pre-existed in some “spiritual” form before he came to inhabit his earthly body? After all, YEHOVAH “knew” him before his birth and also “sanctified” him before the womb, right? Or does it make more sense that YEHOVAH was saying that he was calling “things that are not as though they are”? The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medean Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as YEHOVAH's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Judahites: Who says of Cyrus, He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut (Is. 44:28- 45:1, NKJV emphasis mine). As you can see for yourself, in this example Cyrus had YEHOVAH's anointing to perform good things for the Judahites that were in Babylonian captivity. He was the one that authorized their return to Palestine to rebuild the walls and temple of Jerusalem that had been razed by the forces of Nebuchadnezzar, first king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire circa 586 BC. As remarkable in scope as is the prophesy of Isaiah that recorded these events almost two centuries before they occurred, no theologian tries to make the pre-existence of Cyrus literal. So WHY do this with the Messiah? Are you getting the point? Even Paul alludes to a similar pre-existence as Jeremiah's in Galatians 1:15-16 by saying, But when it was well-pleasing to the one who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me (on account of his generosity) to reveal his son to me, so that I might announce him to the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood. So what can we say to all of this? Simply this. The scriptures that are used to prove that Yeshua of Nazareth pre-existed also fall into the same category. It should also be stressed that the literal pre-existence of the Anointed is in no way necessary to our salvation! It is only relevant to the view of the “Holy Trinity”. This view creates the difficulty of explaining how that God is one and yet two or three. Do you remember discussing this question in its various forms and solutions? Obsession with a particular theory will cause one to interpret every scripture possible within the context of that theory. Such has been the effect of the “Holy Trinity” view on scholars for generations. Pre-Existence Of The Anointed Not Required Let's prove together that the literal pre-existence of the Messiah is not required to accomplish the purposes for which he was anointed. In the same way that Cyrus' pre-existence was not a requirement to carry out the pre-existing purposes of YEHOVAH God, the same can be said concerning Yeshua, the Anointed. Let's also number them so we can keep track. 1) His pre-existence was not required for his person and/or personality as the Anointed. He was certainly “material” before his death and even emphasized his continued “materiality” after his resurrection. Luke 24:39 records it thus: Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have. Milton Burtt makes a very appropriate observation concerning this subject: To theorize at this point and try to imagine an immaterial pre-existent personality distinct from the body is nothing short of subtle spiritualism (op. cit., p. 7). 2) The pre-existence of the Messiah was also NOT required for him to be the “only begotten son” of YEHOVAH God. The scriptures clearly record that he was born of the woman Mary — his father being Joseph the carpenter (Luke 4:22). He had a NORMAL, HUMAN BIRTH! For the same reason, however, that Adam's pre-existence was NOT required for him to be physically created by YEHOVAH God, neither did the Messiah (the “last Adam”) need to pre-exist to be spiritually “begotten” of the father. I doubt whether any would argue that Adam did not pre-exist in the Mind of YEHOVAH before his “advent,” so why should the Messiah NOT also have pre-existed in YEHOVAH's Mind before his “advent”? As you can see, the uniqueness of both Adam and the Messiah need have nothing whatsoever to do with their personal pre-existence, but rather with the existence of an omniscient Almighty God Who planned them in his mind from before Creation. 3) Pre-existence was not essential for the power resident in the Anointed Yeshua. It was by the power of YEHOVAH's spirit (or breath) that the Messiah performed signs after his anointing. The Messiah said, But if I am casting out spirit beings by the spirit of God, God's kingdom has appeared to you (Matt. 12:28, emphasis mine). This truth is echoed and placed in the context of “anointing” power by Peter in Acts 10:38: [You know] how God anointed that Yeshua from Nazareth with holy breath and power, who went about doing good deeds and healing all those who were oppressed by the Accuser, because God was with him (emphasis mine). As we can see, without the “anointing” of YEHOVAH God and the fact that “God was with him” he would have been powerless. This engenders the question of how the omnipotent God became powerless in the first place. We might as well turn to the old enigma that asks, “Could YEHOVAH God create a rock that He was unable to lift?” 4) Pre-existence was also not involved in the atonement of the Anointed nor was it at all necessary. On the contrary, human existence was what was called for. Peter taught plainly that Christians were redeemed by the blood of the Messiah — On the contrary, you were delivered with the valuable, spotless and unblemished blood of a 'lamb' — that is, the Anointed One's blood (1 Pet . 1:19). In this, Peter was echoing the pattern of atonement laid down in the Old Testament system as a shadow and type of what was to come. “It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul” (Lev. 17:11). In fact, the Anointed's humanity is what is being stressed in his subsequent sacrifice as the fulfillment of the old by the Hebrew writer. After making it clear that the blood of bulls and goats would not suffice for atonement, the writer posits that human flesh and blood was required — Therefore, brothers, since we have freedom of speech by the blood of Yeshua, to the point of entering the holy places (By his blood he made new for us a new and living way through the veil, which is, his flesh), and since we have a great priest over God's house, we should come near…. (Heb. 10:19-21, emphasis mine). As everyone knows, blood and flesh are characteristics of human and earthly organisms and certainly require no pre-existence. 5) Pre-existence was not an essential requisite for the knowledge (revelation) that the Messiah received. It should be noted that the Messiah is referred to by Moses as a prophet like himself (Deut. 18:15). As Moses received his power and knowledge through YEHOVAH, the same was true of the Anointed Yeshua. Luke explains his human mental capacity as he grows in wisdom, knowledge and favor in Luke 2:52. There is no record of the Messiah performing any miracles or speaking prophetically before his baptism by John when the spirit of YEHOVAH God descended upon him. It was immediately thereafter that Luke connects the power of YEHOVAH with the Messiah. After his baptism and testing by the Adversary, Luke notes that the Messiah, … returned in the power of the spirit to Galilee, and a report of him went out through all the surrounding region (Luke 4:14, emphasis mine). It was from this very context that Luke records the remarkable confrontation between the Messiah and the townspeople of his youth. Luke says, So he came to Nazareth where he had been brought up. And according to the custom, he entered the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read…. he found the place where it was written: 'The Lord's breath is upon me. On account of this, he has anointed me to an- nounce a good message to the poor; he has sent me forth to herald a release to the captives and a restoration of sight to the blind; to send forth in freedom those who had been crushed; to herald the Lord's acceptable year (Luke 4:16-19). The next verse records the rapt attention paid to him by those listening. Why, all of a sudden, did they give him such scrutiny? Because of his newly required reputation! News of him had preceded his return to Nazareth (Luke 4:14). It was after the Messiah's “anointing” that he was able to receive their undivided attention and it was only then that he said, Today this writing is fulfilled in your hearing (Luke 4:21, emphasis mine). His neighbors were flabbergasted by what had transpired. The people that had known him and his mother and father demonstrate undeniably that the Messiah had never previously exercised prophetic or miraculous abilities. “Today”, says the Messiah, this writing is fulfilled. What occurred required NO pre-existence of any kind any more than did the calling of Moses, Amos, or any other prophet singled out by YEHOVAH God to receive power and/or revelation. And as previously mentioned, the Messiah often described his teaching as not his own but his Father's. There could be much more said about the character of the Anointed Yeshua and the honor, power, and glory that he received from his Father, but none of these require pre-existence. On the contrary, they argue against pre-existence. If the Messiah was God, he would not have needed to be given anything at all. Some have argued that all the things received by him were already his by right. If that was the case and they were already his — then how did he receive them? This question falls into the same category as the question that has bothered generations of Christians, viz how can God be one and also two or three? As before mentioned, scriptures are often interpreted in accordance with a persons pre-conceived notions — his paradigm. Burtt put it like this: “We become so obsessed with a certain theory that we read it into every passage in the Bible” (ibid., p. 14). SOURCE WHO IS THE WORD? John Chapter One ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE? Exodus 32 By Voy Wilks 3/9/98 The Pre-existence Philippians 2:5-11 By Voy Wilks 1/29/92 Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? …

My personal note on a Scripture reference in excerpt of this article:

Scripture Reference: Then the word of Yahweh came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I set you apart [“sanctified you”] and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Yeremyah 1: 4-5).

My Personal Note: This passage can be compared to Yahshua's communication [“prayer”] with his and our Father Yahweh in his saying:

“And now, Father,  esteem [“glorify”] me in Your presence with the esteem I had with You before the world began (Yahchanan [John] 17:5).

Yahshua here was not giving reference to his LITERALLY pre-existing with his and our Father Yahweh as an actual being before the world began. The fact is, Yahshua was giving reference to the esteem [“glory”] that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began, not to his pre-existing as an actual being with Him before the world began.

Also see:

“The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was”
Yahchanan [John] 17:5

…

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 03 2012,13:21)

f HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU PASTE THAT COMMENT OF YOUR ,?

Pieeear,

Once! Here it is again! Count it!

You might also want to read it and pay special attention to the Scriptural references in context with Scripture as a whole this time!

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2012,12:29)

Biblical pre-existence We fully realize that questioning the pre-existence of the “person” Yeshua places us considerably outside the mainstream. However, as previously mentioned, when we are dealing with a God that has the ability to “… call things that are not as though they are” — we must be careful not to project literal meaning to things that He intended as figurative. That the perpetrators of the Trinitarian view are inconsistent when they apply pre-existence only to the Anointed Yeshua is easily proven. There are several people in the Bible that were described as pre-existing. King David was one of those. The Psalmist describes his pre-existence in Psalm 139:14-16: “I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them” (emphasis mine). While this Psalm is a remarkable description of the power and planning of the great YEHOVAH God, no theologian tries to literalize David's pre-existence from this text. How did David pre-exist? That's right, in the Mind and foreknowledge of YEHOVAH God. Jeremiah is also similarly alluded to — Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I sanctified you and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Jer. 1: 4-5, emphasis mine). Could not the above scriptures be construed to mean that Jeremiah pre-existed in some “spiritual” form before he came to inhabit his earthly body? After all, YEHOVAH “knew” him before his birth and also “sanctified” him before the womb, right? Or does it make more sense that YEHOVAH was saying that he was calling “things that are not as though they are”? The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medean Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as YEHOVAH's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Judahites: Who says of Cyrus, He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut (Is. 44:28- 45:1, NKJV emphasis mine). As you can see for yourself, in this example Cyrus had YEHOVAH's anointing to perform good things for the Judahites that were in Babylonian captivity. He was the one that authorized their return to Palestine to rebuild the walls and temple of Jerusalem that had been razed by the forces of Nebuchadnezzar, first king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire circa 586 BC. As remarkable in scope as is the prophesy of Isaiah that recorded these events almost two centuries before they occurred, no theologian tries to make the pre-existence of Cyrus literal. So WHY do this with the Messiah? Are you getting the point? Even Paul alludes to a similar pre-existence as Jeremiah's in Galatians 1:15-16 by saying, But when it was well-pleasing to the one who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me (on account of his generosity) to reveal his son to me, so that I might announce him to the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood. So what can we say to all of this? Simply this. The scriptures that are used to prove that Yeshua of Nazareth pre-existed also fall into the same category. It should also be stressed that the literal pre-existence of the Anointed is in no way necessary to our salvation! It is only relevant to the view of the “Holy Trinity”. This view creates the difficulty of explaining how that God is one and yet two or three. Do you remember discussing this question in its various forms and solutions? Obsession with a particular theory will cause one to interpret every scripture possible within the context of that theory. Such has been the effect of the “Holy Trinity” view on scholars for generations. Pre-Existence Of The Anointed Not Required Let's prove together that the literal pre-existence of the Messiah is not required to accomplish the purposes for which he was anointed. In the same way that Cyrus' pre-existence was not a requirement to carry out the pre-existing purposes of YEHOVAH God, the same can be said concerning Yeshua, the Anointed. Let's also number them so we can keep track. 1) His pre-existence was not required for his person and/or personality as the Anointed. He was certainly “material” before his death and even emphasized his continued “materiality” after his resurrection. Luke 24:39 records it thus: Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have. Milton Burtt makes a very appropriate observation concerning this subject: To theorize at this point and try to imagine an immaterial pre-existent personality distinct from the body is nothing short of subtle spiritualism (op. cit., p. 7). 2) The pre-existence of the Messiah was also NOT required for him to be the “only begotten son” of YEHOVAH God. The scriptures clearly record that he was born of the woman Mary — his father being Joseph the carpenter (Luke 4:22). He had a NORMAL, HUMAN BIRTH! For the same reason, however, that Adam's pre-existence was NOT required for him to be physically created by YEHOVAH God, neither did the Messiah (the “last Adam”) need to pre-exist to be spiritually “begotten” of the father. I doubt whether any would argue that Adam did not pre-exist in the Mind of YEHOVAH before his “advent,” so why should the Messiah NOT also have pre-existed in YEHOVAH's Mind before his “advent”? As you can see, the uniqueness of both Adam and the Messiah need have nothing whatsoever to do with their personal pre-existence, but rather with the existence of an omniscient Almighty God Who planned them in his mind from before Creation. 3) Pre-existence was not essential for the power resident in the Anointed Yeshua. It was by the power of YEHOVAH's spirit (or breath) that the Messiah performed signs after his anointing. The Messiah said, But if I am casting out spirit beings by the spirit of God, God's kingdom has appeared to you (Matt. 12:28, emphasis mine). This truth is echoed and placed in the context of “anointing” power by Peter in Acts 10:38: [You know] how God anointed that Yeshua from Nazareth with holy breath and power, who went about doing good deeds and healing all those who were oppressed by the Accuser, because God was with him (emphasis mine). As we can see, without the “anointing” of YEHOVAH God and the fact that “God was with him” he would have been powerless. This engenders the question of how the omnipotent God became powerless in the first place. We might as well turn to the old enigma that asks, “Could YEHOVAH God create a rock that He was unable to lift?” 4) Pre-existence was also not involved in the atonement of the Anointed nor was it at all necessary. On the contrary, human existence was what was called for. Peter taught plainly that Christians were redeemed by the blood of the Messiah — On the contrary, you were delivered with the valuable, spotless and unblemished blood of a 'lamb' — that is, the Anointed One's blood (1 Pet. 1:19). In this, Peter was echoing the pattern of atonement laid down in the Old Testament system as a shadow and type of what was to come. “It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul” (Lev. 17:11). In fact, the Anointed's humanity is what is being stressed in his subsequent sacrifice as the fulfillment of the old by the Hebrew writer. After making it clear that the blood of bulls and goats would not suffice for atonement, the writer posits that human flesh and blood was required — Therefore, brothers, since we have freedom of speech by the blood of Yeshua, to the point of entering the holy places (By his blood he made new for us a new and living way through the veil, which is, his flesh), and since we have a great priest over God's house, we should come near…. (Heb. 10:19-21, emphasis mine). As everyone knows, blood and flesh are characteristics of human and earthly organisms and certainly require no pre-existence. 5) Pre-existence was not an essential requisite for the knowledge (revelation) that the Messiah received. It should be noted that the Messiah is referred to by Moses as a prophet like himself (Deut. 18:15). As Moses received his power and knowledge through YEHOVAH, the same was true of the Anointed Yeshua. Luke explains his human mental capacity as he grows in wisdom, knowledge and favor in Luke 2:52. There is no record of the Messiah performing any miracles or speaking prophetically before his baptism by John when the spirit of YEHOVAH God descended upon him. It was immediately thereafter that Luke connects the power of YEHOVAH with the Messiah. After his baptism and testing by the Adversary, Luke notes that the Messiah, … returned in the power of the spirit to Galilee, and a report of him went out through all the surrounding region (Luke 4:14, emphasis mine). It was from this very context that Luke records the remarkable confrontation between the Messiah and the townspeople of his youth. Luke says, So he came to Nazareth where he had been brought up. And according to the custom, he entered the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read…. he found the place where it was written: 'The Lord's breath is upon me. On account of this, he has anointed me to an- nounce a good message to the poor; he has sent me forth to herald a release to the captives and a restoration of sight to the blind; to send forth in freedom those who had been crushed; to herald the Lord's acceptable year (Luke 4:16-19). The next verse records the rapt attention paid to him by those listening. Why, all of a sudden, did they give him such scrutiny? Because of his newly required reputation! News of him had preceded his return to Nazareth (Luke 4:14). It was after the Messiah's “anointing” that he was able to receive their undivided attention and it was only then that he said, Today this writing is fulfilled in your hearing (Luke 4:21, emphasis mine). His neighbors were flabbergasted by what had transpired. The people that had known him and his mother and father demonstrate undeniably that the Messiah had never previously exercised prophetic or miraculous abilities. “Today”, says the Messiah, this writing is fulfilled. What occurred required NO pre-existence of any kind any more than did the calling of Moses, Amos, or any other prophet singled out by YEHOVAH God to receive power and/or revelation. And as previously mentioned, the Messiah often described his teaching as not his own but his Father's. There could be much more said about the character of the Anointed Yeshua and the honor, power, and glory that he received from his Father, but none of these require pre-existence. On the contrary, they argue against pre-existence. If the Messiah was God, he would not have needed to be given anything at all. Some have argued that all the things received by him were already his by right. If that was the case and they were already his — then how did he receive them? This question falls into the same category as the question that has bothered generations of Christians, viz how can God be one and also two or three? As before mentioned, scriptures are often interpreted in accordance with a persons pre-conceived notions — his paradigm. Burtt put it like this: “We become so obsessed with a certain theory that we read it into every passage in the Bible” (ibid., p. 14). SOURCE WHO IS THE WORD? John Chapter One ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE? Exodus 32 By Voy Wilks 3/9/98 The Pre-existence Philippians 2:5-11 By Voy Wilks 1/29/92 Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? …

My personal note on a Scripture reference in excerpt of this article:

Scripture Reference: Then the word of Yahweh came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I set you apart [“sanctified you”] and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Yeremyah 1: 4-5).

My Personal Note: This passage can be compared to Yahshua's communication [“prayer”] with his and our Father Yahweh in his saying:

“And now, Father,  esteem [“glorify”] me in Your presence with the esteem I had with You before the world began (Yahchanan [John] 17:5).

Yahshua here was not giving reference to his LITERALLY pre-existing with his and our Father Yahweh as an actual being before the world began. The fact is, Yahshua was giving reference to the esteem [“glory”] that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began, not to his pre-existing as an actual being with Him before the world began.

Also see:

“The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was”
Yahchanan [John] 17:5

…

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2012,13:50)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 03 2012,13:21) f HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU PASTE THAT COMMENT OF YOUR ,? Pieeear, Once! Here it is again! Count it! You might also want to read it and pay special attention to the Scriptural references in context with Scripture as a whole this time! Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2012,12:29) Biblical pre-existence We fully realize that questioning the pre-existence of the “person” Yeshua places us considerably outside the mainstream. However, as previously mentioned, when we are dealing with a God that has the ability to “… call things that are not as though they are” — we must be careful not to project literal meaning to things that He intended as figurative. That the perpetrators of the Trinitarian view are inconsistent when they apply pre-existence only to the Anointed Yeshua is easily proven. There are several people in the Bible that were described as pre-existing. King David was one of those. The Psalmist describes his pre-existence in Psalm 139:14-16: “I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them” (emphasis mine). While this Psalm is a remarkable description of the power and planning of the great YEHOVAH God, no theologian tries to literalize David's pre-existence from this text. How did David pre-exist? That's right, in the Mind and foreknowledge of YEHOVAH God. Jeremiah is also similarly alluded to — Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I sanctified you and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Jer. 1: 4-5, emphasis mine). Could not the above scriptures be construed to mean that Jeremiah pre-existed in some “spiritual” form before he came to inhabit his earthly body? After all, YEHOVAH “knew” him before his birth and also “sanctified” him before the womb, right? Or does it make more sense that YEHOVAH was saying that he was calling “things that are not as though they are”? The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medean Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as YEHOVAH's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Judahites: Who says of Cyrus, He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut (Is. 44:28- 45:1, NKJV emphasis mine). As you can see for yourself, in this example Cyrus had YEHOVAH's anointing to perform good things for the Judahites that were in Babylonian captivity. He was the one that authorized their return to Palestine to rebuild the walls and temple of Jerusalem that had been razed by the forces of Nebuchadnezzar, first king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire circa 586 BC. As remarkable in scope as is the prophesy of Isaiah that recorded these events almost two centuries before they occurred, no theologian tries to make the pre-existence of Cyrus literal. So WHY do this with the Messiah? Are you getting the point? Even Paul alludes to a similar pre-existence as Jeremiah's in Galatians 1:15-16 by saying, But when it was well-pleasing to the one who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me (on account of his generosity) to reveal his son to me, so that I might announce him to the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood. So what can we say to all of this? Simply this. The scriptures that are used to prove that Yeshua of Nazareth pre-existed also fall into the same category. It should also be stressed that the literal pre-existence of the Anointed is in no way necessary to our salvation! It is only relevant to the view of the “Holy Trinity”. This view creates the difficulty of explaining how that God is one and yet two or three. Do you remember discussing this question in its various forms and solutions? Obsession with a particular theory will cause one to interpret every scripture possible within the context of that theory. Such has been the effect of the “Holy Trinity” view on scholars for generations. Pre-Existence Of The Anointed Not Required Let's prove together that the literal pre-existence of the Messiah is not required to accomplish the purposes for which he was anointed. In the same way that Cyrus' pre-existence was not a requirement to carry out the pre-existing purposes of YEHOVAH God, the same can be said concerning Yeshua, the Anointed. Let's also number them so we can keep track. 1) His pre-existence was not required for his person and/or personality as the Anointed. He was certainly “material” before his death and even emphasized his continued “materiality” after his resurrection. Luke 24:39 records it thus: Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have. Milton Burtt makes a very appropriate observation concerning this subject: To theorize at this point and try to imagine an immaterial pre-existent personality distinct from the body is nothing short of subtle spiritualism (op. cit., p. 7). 2) The pre-existence of the Messiah was also NOT required for him to be the “only begotten son” of YEHOVAH God. The scriptures clearly record that he was born of the woman Mary — his father being Joseph the carpenter (Luke 4:22). He had a NORMAL, HUMAN BIRTH! For the same reason, however, that Adam's pre-existence was NOT required for him to be physically created by YEHOVAH God, neither did the Messiah (the “last Adam”) need to pre-exist to be spiritually “begotten” of the father. I doubt whether any would argue that Adam did not pre-exist in the Mind of YEHOVAH before his “advent,” so why should the Messiah NOT also have pre-existed in YEHOVAH's Mind before his “advent”? As you can see, the uniqueness of both Adam and the Messiah need have nothing whatsoever to do with their personal pre-existence, but rather with the existence of an omniscient Almighty God Who planned them in his mind from before Creation. 3) Pre-existence was not essential for the power resident in the Anointed Y eshua. It was by the power of YEHOVAH's spirit (or breath) that the Messiah performed signs after his anointing. The Messiah said, But if I am casting out spirit beings by the spirit of God, God's kingdom has appeared to you (Matt. 12:28, emphasis mine). This truth is echoed and placed in the context of “anointing” power by Peter in Acts 10:38: [You know] how God anointed that Yeshua from Nazareth with holy breath and power, who went about doing good deeds and healing all those who were oppressed by the Accuser, because God was with him (emphasis mine). As we can see, without the “anointing” of YEHOVAH God and the fact that “God was with him” he would have been powerless. This engenders the question of how the omnipotent God became powerless in the first place. We might as well turn to the old enigma that asks, “Could YEHOVAH God create a rock that He was unable to lift?” 4) Pre-existence was also not involved in the atonement of the Anointed nor was it at all necessary. On the contrary, human existence was what was called for. Peter taught plainly that Christians were redeemed by the blood of the Messiah — On the contrary, you were delivered with the valuable, spotless and unblemished blood of a 'lamb' — that is, the Anointed One's blood (1 Pet. 1:19). In this, Peter was echoing the pattern of atonement laid down in the Old Testament system as a shadow and type of what was to come. “It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul” (Lev. 17:11). In fact, the Anointed's humanity is what is being stressed in his subsequent sacrifice as the fulfillment of the old by the Hebrew writer. After making it clear that the blood of bulls and goats would not suffice for atonement, the writer posits that human flesh and blood was required — Therefore, brothers, since we have freedom of speech by the blood of Yeshua, to the point of entering the holy places (By his blood he made new for us a new and living way through the veil, which is, his flesh), and since we have a great priest over God's house, we should come near…. (Heb. 10:19-21, emphasis mine). As everyone knows, blood and flesh are characteristics of human and earthly organisms and certainly require no pre-existence. 5) Pre-existence was not an essential requisite for the knowledge (revelation) that the Messiah received. It should be noted that the Messiah is referred to by Moses as a prophet like himself (Deut. 18:15). As Moses received his power and knowledge through YEHOVAH, the same was true of the Anointed Yeshua. Luke explains his human mental capacity as he grows in wisdom, knowledge and favor in Luke 2:52. There is no record of the Messiah performing any miracles or speaking prophetically before his baptism by John when the spirit of YEHOVAH God descended upon him. It was immediately thereafter that Luke connects the power of YEHOVAH with the Messiah. After his baptism and testing by the Adversary, Luke notes that the Messiah, … returned in the power of the spirit to Galilee, and a report of him went out through all the surrounding region (Luke 4:14, emphasis mine). It was from this very context that Luke records the remarkable confrontation between the Messiah and the townspeople of his youth. Luke says, So he came to Nazareth where he had been brought up. And according to the custom, he entered the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read…. he found the place where it was written: 'The Lord's breath is upon me. On account of this, he has anointed me to an- nounce a good message to the poor; he has sent me forth to herald a release to the captives and a restoration of sight to the blind; to send forth in freedom those who had been crushed; to herald the Lord's acceptable year (Luke 4:16-19). The next verse records the rapt attention paid to him by those listening. Why, all of a sudden, did they give him such scrutiny? Because of his newly required reputation! News of him had preceded his return to Nazareth (Luke 4:14). It was after the Messiah's “anointing” that he was able to receive their undivided attention and it was only then that he said, Today this writing is fulfilled in your hearing (Luke 4:21, emphasis mine). His neighbors were flabbergasted by what had transpired. The people that had known him and his mother and father demonstrate undeniably that the Messiah had never previously exercised prophetic or miraculous abilities. “Today”, says the Messiah, this writing is fulfilled. What occurred required NO pre-existence of any kind any more than did the calling of Moses, Amos, or any other prophet singled out by YEHOVAH God to receive power and/or revelation. And as previously mentioned, the Messiah often described his teaching as not his own but his Father's. There could be much more said about the character of the Anointed Yeshua and the honor, power, and glory that he received from his Father, but none of these require pre-existence. On the contrary, they argue against pre-existence. If the Messiah was God, he would not have needed to be given anything at all. Some have argued that all the things received by him were already his by right. If that was the case and they were already his — then how did he receive them? This question falls into the same category as the question that has bothered generations of Christians, viz how can God be one and also two or three? As before mentioned, scriptures are often interpreted in accordance with a persons pre-conceived notions — his paradigm. Burtt put it like this: “We become so obsessed with a certain theory that we read it into every passage in the Bible” (ibid., p. 14). SOURCE WHO IS THE WORD? John Chapter One ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE? Exodus 32 By Voy Wilks 3/9/98 The Pre-existence Philippians 2:5-11 By Voy Wilks 1/29/92 Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? … My personal note on a Scripture reference in excerpt of this article: Scripture Reference: Then the word of Yahweh came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I set you apart [“sanctified you”] and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Yeremyah 1: 4-5). My Personal Note: This passage can be compared to Yahshua's communication [“prayer”] with his and our Father Yahweh in his saying: “And now, Father,  esteem [“glorify”] me in Your presence with the esteem I had with You before the world began (Yahchanan [John] 17:5). Yahshua here was not giving reference to his LITERALLY pre-existing with his and our Father Yahweh as an actual being before the world began. The fact is, Yahshua was giving reference to the esteem [“glory”] that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began, not to his pre-existing as an actual being with Him before the world began. Also see: “The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was” Yahchanan [John] 17:5 …

Pieear,

Thanks for the inquiry, since if you would have not said something I would have probably not noticed the URL error to the link to my Xanga blog that I had made at the end of the article excerpt. Following is it's correction:

http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/7080526….rld-was

THanks again!  

[jammin]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 02 2012,16:45)

Hi Jammin, Those words were added in and you know it; mans doctrines are very important to you, aye? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

that is not added ed.

you just cant accept the truth
let me post the KJV
John 1:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

the bible is talking about the father's son and not HOLY SPIRIT.

do you know how to read boy???

other version says
John 1:14

English Standard Version (ESV)

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

ed that is very clear in the bible.
believe it or not

the Word is the son of God/Christ.

[limjunus]

Quote (jammin @ Sep. 02 2012,15:40)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 02 2012,07:00) Quote (jammin @ Sep. 02 2012,01:01) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 31 2012,23:53) Hi Jammin, I do. “The Word was God” (John 1:1) “God was in Christ” (2Cor. 5:19) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org the verse is correct. just do not add your imagination ed. rule #1 read the context you do not know that ed Hi Jammin, “Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” (Isaiah 28:9-13) “And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15-16) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org that verse is applicable to you ed. let me post the whole john 1.1-14 John 1:1-14 New Life Version (NLV) Christ Lived Before the World Was Made 1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 He made all things. Nothing was made without Him making it. 4 Life began by Him. His Life was the Light for men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness. The darkness has never been able to put out the Light. John the Baptist Tells of the Coming of Christ 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came to tell what he knew about the Light so that all men might believe through him. 8 John was not the Light, but he was sent to tell about the Light. 9 This true Light, coming into the world, gives light to every man. 10 He came into the world. The world was made by Him, but it did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, but His own did not receive Him. 12 He gave the right and the power to become children of God to those who received Him. He gave this to those who put their trust in His name. 13 These children of God were not born of blood and of flesh and of man’s desires, but they were born of God. 14 Christ became human flesh and lived among us. We saw His shining-greatness. This greatness is given only to a much-loved Son from His Father. He was full of loving-favor and truth. do you see that ed??? that is very clear in the bible. the Word is Christ.you do not need to jump to 2 cor to insert your imagination. i read the context of the bible and it says that the Word is the son of God/Christ. that is the right way to read your bible. study hard boy

In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1 NLT)

So the Word became human[a] and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son. (John 1:14 NLT)

The Word is God? …God with the God in the beginning?

How many truly God the context saying?

The Word is God, and he was died?

John 4:24 New King James Version (NKJV)

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Is Jesus Christ is a spirit? Yes or No?

[jammin]

the body died. Christ had a truly human body. 1 john 4.2
1 John 4:2

Contemporary English Version (CEV)

2 and you can know which ones come from God. His Spirit says that Jesus Christ had a truly human body.

he became flesh (john 1.14)
John 1:14

New Life Version (NLV)

14 Christ became human flesh and lived among us. We saw His shining-greatness.

the son and the father have the same nature.
John 1.1 BNT
When the world began, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God.

how many times do i need to repeat this limjunus boy.
you and your father HAVE ONE NATURE! that is your HUMAN NATURE!

the father and the son have the same nature, and that is nature God. phil 2.6
Philippians 2:6

New International Version (NIV)

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,

study hard boy

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 02 2012,17:04)

HolySpirit/God Most High's spirit

So God's Holy Spirit has a spirit of its own?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 02 2012,20:43)

My personal note on a Scripture reference in excerpt of this article: Scripture Reference: Then the word of Yahweh came unto me, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth from the womb I set you apart [“sanctified you”] and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations (Yeremyah 1: 4-5). My Personal Note: This passage can be compared to Yahshua's communication [“prayer”] with his and our Father Yahweh in his saying: “And now, Father, esteem [“glorify”] me in Your presence with the esteem I had with You before the world began (Yahchanan [John] 17:5).

Frank,

Can you really compare God knowing us before we exist to us being able to say WE had glory alongside Him before the world began?

Surely God already knows everyone who hasn't even been born yet, right? But that's quite different than any of those unborn people being able to say they were with God before the world began, right? Nor can any of us or them ever say, “I came down from heaven to do the will of my Father”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 02 2012,20:50)

Pieeear,

Really Frank? Isn't playing games with another member's name a little childish? His name is Pierre, not “Pie – ear” like you've been addressing him for months.

Grow up.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 03 2012,02:31)

The Word is God? …God with the God in the beginning?

Makes no sense, does it limjunis?

God Almighty cannot possibly bewith God Almighty – unless there are TWO God Almighties. Yet most people let common sense fly out the window when it comes to John 1:1.

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