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Adam…..one thing about John 1:1, we don't have to switch any meanings and we understand it Just as it is written , i wish others could see that.
love and peace to you and yours…………gene
This is an interesting topic. John 1 In the beginning was the Word… and then later, all things were created by the Word.. then the Word of God spoke to Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, Nathan, Gad, Solomon, and so many others in the Old Testament. Then the Word became flesh and was called Jesus. Later in Revelation 18 we see the Word of God on a white horse with His garment dipped in blood.
Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. The one and only Word of God!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 25 2008,10:48) T8….Jesus was not the one who said (HE) saw Abraham that was what the lying Jew were trying to make him out as saying, and no where did Jesus say He was (BORN) before Abraham, your forcing the text to fit your ideology of preexistence. There is only One scripture that the debate of Jesus preexistence comes down to and that is John 1:1 and it will only work if you transpose the word (WORD) to Mean Jesus. as you and the trinitarians do. Don't you think if Jesus preexisted there would be a (SPECIFIC) statement made in Scripture clearing that point. Why is there no such Statement, But we find Peter Making the statement to the foreordained Jesus and Him coming into existence in His time. peace brother……..gene
Jesus said in John 8:58, “Before Abraham, I am”. Why not read it for what it says instead of placing it into a context to try an nullify its simple message.I also think you are wrong about one scripture saying it or teaching it. There are many good reasons why people believe it, besides John 1:1 and the John 8:58 scripture I mentioned above.
John 1:15
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Philippians 2:5-8
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been madeProverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.Revelation 1:12-18,
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.This is more like a theme in the scriptures, than one or two difficult scriptures. In fact, there may even be less evidence given about the Tribulation than the son of God being with God in some form before creation or at least existing before his physical birth.
Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 25 2008,18:26) Thanks for that brother Nick, yes he was born like you and me to a woman on this earth but declared as Son of God by power of the Spirit of God (Rom 1:3-4)
Hi GM,
Certainly the power of his anointing declared that he was the awaited son of God.But that says nothing of his origins.
Hi GM,
God has a heavenly family.Eph 3
8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
13Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
T8………with all that so-called evidence then why has the idea of Jesus preexistences be argued by thousand of Scholars for Centuries if it is so clear as you suppose it is. Why has it boiled down to John 1:1 as the only (Specific) proof text then. That trinitarians use to prove Jesus' preexistence and equality with God then. Not One text you presented can be conclusive of Jesus' preexistence without you adding something to the text to make it be specific. If it were so clear there would not be all the arguments over it would there, and i noticed you conveniently left out what Peter Said regarding Jesus being (Foreordained) which shows He was not in existence prior to His berth. If you are going to deal fairly with this subject you need to consider all the other texts that show He would come from His race of people as Moses quoted God saying. You would have to conceder Geneses where God said that the SEED OF THE WOMAN would bruise the head of the serpent, not some preexistent being.You are channeling all your thoughts on what supports you theology and not considering (ALL) the texts on the subject. IMO
peace brother…………gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 27 2008,00:17) God's creation itself is His family that's why we are created in Christ Jesus to be God's children.
Hi, can I suggest that rather than God's creation being God's family, that we as people have the potential to be God's children upon our repentance and acceptance of the Lordship Jesus Christ.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 27 2008,03:48) T8………with all that so-called evidence then why has the idea of Jesus preexistences be argued by thousand of Scholars for Centuries if it is so clear as you suppose it is. Why has it boiled down to John 1:1 as the only (Specific) proof text then. That trinitarians use to prove Jesus' preexistence and equality with God then. Not One text you presented can be conclusive of Jesus' preexistence without you adding something to the text to make it be specific. If it were so clear there would not be all the arguments over it would there, and i noticed you conveniently left out what Peter Said regarding Jesus being (Foreordained) which shows He was not in existence prior to His berth. If you are going to deal fairly with this subject you need to consider all the other texts that show He would come from His race of people as Moses quoted God saying. You would have to conceder Geneses where God said that the SEED OF THE WOMAN would bruise the head of the serpent, not some preexistent being.You are channeling all your thoughts on what supports you theology and not considering (ALL) the texts on the subject. IMO peace brother…………gene
Gene. When you read those scriptures as they are without adding anything that is the message that comes out.Rather it is you who are adding to the texts to say that they are not saying what they are saying.
“Before Abraham I am” means what it means. You need to add words in order to say that he wasn't saying “Before Abraham, I am”.
Same with all the scriptures that say that God created all through Jesus. You actually need to add stuff in order to say that God actually didn't create all things through Jesus.
Your rebuttal is quite cheeky because the very thing you say I am doing is what you are doing. I am actually just quoting the scriptures as they are. You are the one adding to them to change the meaning that you get when you read them.
I am not trying to be rude or offend, but that is what is happening here.
” before Abraham was I am” says nothing clearly to me except that the past or present tense
was not stated clearly enough for us to even understand what was meant.
The Pharisees were ready to stone Jesus because he answered them in a riddle.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 27 2008,23:05) ” before Abraham was I am” says nothing clearly to me except that the past or present tense
was not stated clearly enough for us to even understand what was meant.
The Pharisees were ready to stone Jesus because he answered them in a riddle.Tim
Wait a minute, you mean to tell me if I say before Abraham,it does not say that? That is denying scripture, and not from God IMO. And I am, means what? I thought if I am, before someone, that I am. How else could you understand that.
Sorry Timothy, I do not agree with you.
Love IreneQuote (Tiffany @ Aug. 28 2008,00:18) Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 27 2008,23:05) ” before Abraham was I am” says nothing clearly to me except that the past or present tense
was not stated clearly enough for us to even understand what was meant.
The Pharisees were ready to stone Jesus because he answered them in a riddle.Tim
Wait a minute, you mean to tell me if I say before Abraham,it does not say that? That is denying scripture, and not from God IMO. And I am, means what? I thought if I am, before someone, that I am. How else could you understand that.
Sorry Timothy, I do not agree with you.
Love Irene
Tooks the words out of my mouth…By the way thank you all for you kind words and prayers….I have been extremely busy as you can imagine…
Tim, David, GM, Gene, Mandy, Irene, Nick, WJ,Chosen, and anyone else I may have forgotten..Thank You
Tiffany……..It does not say in what (WAY) he was before Abraham does it, you and T8 are (ASSUMING) Jesus meant He existed as an actual being, but thats not what it says, in fact Jesus was foreordained from the foundations of the world, but was (MANIFESTED) in our time Just as Peter said. God said Jesus would come from His brethren, He did not say He would come from a preexistent state of being did He. You and T8 both are (ASSUMING) thats the meaning of the text, because by forcing the text it can be made to fit you theologies, Jesus could have meant He was before Abraham, not actually existing in any form of a being but was in the plan and Will of God. If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then. Nothing can be produced without altering the spicific word of the texts, why is that, because scripture does not represent Jesus as a preexisting being , but as a son of God born and brought into existence from man kind, who through the POWER OF GOD overcame Sin. Giving us great hope of being able with the Help of GOD to also overcome even as He did the the effectual working of God the Father. Jesus is our example because He is (EXACTLY) the same as we are in (EVERY) way, not Just in part but (EXACTLY) the SAME. IMO
peace to you all…………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39) If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then.
Colossians 1:15-19… 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39) Tiffany……..It does not say in what (WAY) he was before Abraham does it, you and T8 are (ASSUMING) Jesus meant He existed as an actual being, but thats not what it says, in fact Jesus was foreordained from the foundations of the world, but was (MANIFESTED) in our time Just as Peter said. God said Jesus would come from His brethren, He did not say He would come from a preexistent state of being did He. You and T8 both are (ASSUMING) thats the meaning of the text, because by forcing the text it can be made to fit you theologies, Jesus could have meant He was before Abraham, not actually existing in any form of a being but was in the plan and Will of God. If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then. Nothing can be produced without altering the spicific word of the texts, why is that, because scripture does not represent Jesus as a preexisting being , but as a son of God born and brought into existence from man kind, who through the POWER OF GOD overcame Sin. Giving us great hope of being able with the Help of GOD to also overcome even as He did the the effectual working of God the Father. Jesus is our example because He is (EXACTLY) the same as we are in (EVERY) way, not Just in part but (EXACTLY) the SAME. IMO peace to you all…………..gene
Proverbs 8:22-36…. 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] ,
before his deeds of old;23 I was appointed [c] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,07:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39) If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then.
Colossians 1:15-19… 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Good scripture DK!Jesus is our brother and our leader. He is firstborn of his kind, which is the human filled with the image of God. We too will be just like he is.
1 Corinthians 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,07:58) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39) Tiffany……..It does not say in what (WAY) he was before Abraham does it, you and T8 are (ASSUMING) Jesus meant He existed as an actual being, but thats not what it says, in fact Jesus was foreordained from the foundations of the world, but was (MANIFESTED) in our time Just as Peter said. God said Jesus would come from His brethren, He did not say He would come from a preexistent state of being did He. You and T8 both are (ASSUMING) thats the meaning of the text, because by forcing the text it can be made to fit you theologies, Jesus could have meant He was before Abraham, not actually existing in any form of a being but was in the plan and Will of God. If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then. Nothing can be produced without altering the spicific word of the texts, why is that, because scripture does not represent Jesus as a preexisting being , but as a son of God born and brought into existence from man kind, who through the POWER OF GOD overcame Sin. Giving us great hope of being able with the Help of GOD to also overcome even as He did the the effectual working of God the Father. Jesus is our example because He is (EXACTLY) the same as we are in (EVERY) way, not Just in part but (EXACTLY) the SAME. IMO peace to you all…………..gene
Proverbs 8:22-36…. 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] ,
before his deeds of old;23 I was appointed [c] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”
So DK, you believe that Yeshua in his preexistent state was a SHE?Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and does not understanding raise her voice? 2 On the heights, beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; 3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries out: 4 “To you, O people, I call, and my cry is to all that live. 5 O simple ones, learn prudence; acquire intelligence, you who lack it. 6 Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right; 7 for my mouth will utter truth; wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing twisted or crooked in them. 9 They are all straight to one who understands and right to those who find knowledge. 10 Take my instruction instead of silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold; 11 for wisdom is better than jewels, and all that you may desire cannot compare with her.
12 I, wisdom, live with prudence, and I attain knowledge and discretion. 13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate. 14 I have good advice and sound wisdom; I have insight, I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; 16 by me rulers rule, and nobles, all who govern rightly. 17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me. 18 Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and prosperity. 19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than choice silver. 20 I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice, 21 endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries.
22 The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— 26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.
32 “And now, my children, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it. 34 Happy is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the Lord; 36 but those who miss me injure themselves; all who hate me love death.”
Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 28 2008,03:19) Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,07:58) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39) Tiffany……..It does not say in what (WAY) he was before Abraham does it, you and T8 are (ASSUMING) Jesus meant He existed as an actual being, but thats not what it says, in fact Jesus was foreordained from the foundations of the world, but was (MANIFESTED) in our time Just as Peter said. God said Jesus would come from His brethren, He did not say He would come from a preexistent state of being did He. You and T8 both are (ASSUMING) thats the meaning of the text, because by forcing the text it can be made to fit you theologies, Jesus could have meant He was before Abraham, not actually existing in any form of a being but was in the plan and Will of God. If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then. Nothing can be produced without altering the spicific word of the texts, why is that, because scripture does not represent Jesus as a preexisting being , but as a son of God born and brought into existence from man kind, who through the POWER OF GOD overcame Sin. Giving us great hope of being able with the Help of GOD to also overcome even as He did the the effectual working of God the Father. Jesus is our example because He is (EXACTLY) the same as we are in (EVERY) way, not Just in part but (EXACTLY) the SAME. IMO peace to you all…………..gene
Proverbs 8:22-36…. 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] ,
before his deeds of old;23 I was appointed [c] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”
So DK, you believe that Yeshua in his preexistent state was a SHE?Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and does not understanding raise her voice? 2 On the heights, beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; 3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries out: 4 “To you, O people, I call, and my cry is to all that live. 5 O simple ones, learn prudence; acquire intelligence, you who lack it. 6 Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right; 7 for my mouth will utter truth; wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing twisted or crooked in them. 9 They are all straight to one who understands and right to those who find knowledge. 10 Take my instruction instead of silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold; 11 for wisdom is better than jewels, and all that you may desire cannot compare with her.
12 I, wisdom, live with prudence, and I attain knowledge and discretion. 13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate. 14 I have good advice and sound wisdom; I have insight, I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; 16 by me rulers rule, and nobles, all who govern rightly. 17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me. 18 Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and prosperity. 19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than choice silver. 20 I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice, 21 endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries.
22 The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— 26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.
32 “And now, my children, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it. 34 Happy is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the Lord; 36 but those who miss me injure themselves; all who hate me love death.”
…Of course not…do a little research on the Hebrew language used here and you will see the reasoning behind verse 3
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