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Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 24 2012,22:26) Jammin doctrines is: Truly God spoke in behalf of truly God and more worst is, his God/Nature became or transformed into human nature. Meaning Jammin is no more truly God. God became human.
Not only became human, but DIED. My God never died, because my God CAN'T die.Quote (jammin @ Aug. 25 2012,06:03) the bible said that Christ BECAME FLESH
BUT BEFORE THAT, HE WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD.
That's right, jammin.Jesus was in the form OF God. Those words mean that Jesus was someone OTHER THAN God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,03:19) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 24 2012,18:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2012,08:15) The noun form is here used, not the adjectival theios, which would be required to simply classify the Word as “god-like.”
Mike,It is completely up to you to do some research on the word 'theos'………………
My initial research is in green letters above, Frank. Do YOU have any research to REFUTE the information above?
You call that “research”?
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,11:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2012,08:15) The noun form is here used, not the adjectival theios, which would be required to simply classify the Word as “god-like.”
You call that “research”?
Yes Frank. Contrary to YOUR beliefs, research doesn't necessarily have to contain a million irrevelant facts that have nothing to do with the issue.Right now the issue is: Can “theos” in John 1:1c be translated as an ADJECTIVE, such as “sublime”?
My research says NO, because it was not written in the adjectival form “theios”.
Do YOU have any research to REFUTE my research?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 26 2012,04:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,03:19) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 24 2012,18:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2012,08:15) The noun form is here used, not the adjectival theios, which would be required to simply classify the Word as “god-like.”
Mike,It is completely up to you to do some research on the word 'theos'………………
My initial research is in green letters above, Frank. Do YOU have any research to REFUTE the information above?
You call that “research”?WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Mike,If you enjoy entering into an endless dispute concerning Greek grammar, then I would suggest that you enter this discussion:
http://forums.carm.org/vbb….hn-1-1c
As for me, no, I have no desire whatsoever to enter into an endless dispute with you over Greek grammar which is obvious you have no understanding whatsoever of.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,11:52) Mike, If you enjoy entering into an endless dispute concerning Greek grammar……………….
I'm not looking for an “endless dispute”, Frank. I'm simply asking, since you are fond of “the logos was sublime”, if you actually have any support that the word “theos” in 1:1c can be used as an adjective?Apparently you don't.
The Second Hebrew Letter Beit — b
The second letter of the Hebrew alphabet is beit. It literally means, “house,” “tent,” “dwelling place,” or even “palace” or “temple.” It has a numerical value of “2.” To the Jews, it is the letter of blessing and of creation itself, that which was created, being separate from YEHOVAH God. That is, it pictures the original creation being separate from the Father, but coming from Him. In a very real sense, therefore, it pictures the Logos, the Word of God — the Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH God the Father that will return to this earth and take up residence in the Temple in Jerusalem!
Notice! YEHOVAH God's Shekinah Glory, or the “Logos,” was and is the “Number Two” in the Universe, as the form of YEHOVAH God that can be observed by mankind! The apostle John tells us of the Logos, the Word of God — the Shekinah Glory: “In the beginning was the Word [Greek, Logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was [also] God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men….And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” (John 1:1-3, 14).
In the Aramaic version of the New Testament we find these verses rendered in the following fashion —
Verse 1: In the beginning [of creation] there was the MANIFESTATION; and that MANIFESTATION was with God [YEHOVAH]; and God [YEHOVAH] was [the embodiment of] that MANIFESTATION.
Verse 2: This [the MANIFESTATION] was in the beginning with God [YEHOVAH].
Verse 3: Everything was within his [more correctly, IT'S] power, [otherwise] nothing would ever exist.
Verse 4: Through him [it, the MANIFESTATION] was life and life became the spark of humanity.
Verse 5: And that [ensuing] fire [the MANIFESTATION] lights the darkness and darkness does not overshadow it [the MANIFESTATION].
If we replace the word “Manifestation” with the words “Shekinah Glory” in these verses of John, then we clearly see that “The Word” is none other than YEHOVAH'S Shekinah Glory!
Verse 1: In the beginning [of creation] there was the SHEKINAH GLORY; and that SHEKINAH GLORY was with God [YEHOVAH]; and God [YEHOVAH] was [the embodiment of] that SHEKINAH GLORY.
Verse 2: This [the SHEKINAH GLORY] was in the beginning with God [YEHOVAH].
Verse 3: Everything was within his [IT'S — the SHEKINAH GLORY'S] power, [otherwise] nothing would ever exist.
Verse 4: Through him [it, the SHEKINAH GLORY] was life and life became the spark of humanity.
Verse 5: And that [ensuing] fire [the SHEKINAH GLORY] lights the darkness and darkness does not overshadow it [the SHEKINAH GLORY].
Since the publication of the King James Version of the Bible in 1611 this, and almost all versions that have stemmed from it, have attached the masculine gender to the Greek concept of the “Logos” to explain the presence of the Shekinah Glory at the Creation. Unfortunately, due to this gender change, and the modern Christian's lack of understanding of the Logos concept in the environment of 1st. century Greek philosophy, most have blindly taken the “Word” to mean a pre-existence of Yeshua the Messiah! Nothing could be further from the truth!
Any one of the eight English translations of the Bible prior to 1611 (the Tyndale Bible (1535), the Matthew Bible (1535), the Taverner Bible (1539), the Great (Cranmer's) Bible (1539), the Whittingham Bible (1557), the Geneva Bible (1560) and Bishop's Bible (1568) assign no gender to the “Word” and simply call it “it,” such as in John 1:3: “By IT all things were made. Without IT nothing was made.” The Coverdale Bible (1550) has “THE SAME” rather than “it.” This seems like a strange way of referring to Yeshua the Messiah!
John nowhere indicates that this “Word” or “Logos” is anything else but the Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH god!
Finally, in Revelation 1:2, “the Word of God” is clearly separated from the Messiah — notice!
This is the revelation which God gave to Yeshua the Messiah, so that he could show his servants what must happen very soon. He communicated it by sending his angel to his servant Yochanan [John], who bore witness to THE WORD OF GOD AND to the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah….
Most of the Bible expositors think that “In the beginning was the Word…and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1, 14) shows conclusively that the Word of verse 1 must be Yeshua the Messiah. They think that “In the beginning was Yeshua…and Yeshua was made flesh,” that is, the pre-existent Messiah emptied himself of his divinity and became a human being!
This is the surface conclusion reached by most of the Bible expositors — until the CONTEXT is properly evaluated.
In the first verse it says: THE WORD WAS GOD. Who was this God? Was it the Father (YEHOVAH) or the Son (Yeshua)? John plainly tells us who “the Word” was. He says the Word was God. Now we must find out who God is, and we will then know who or what “the Word” is.
In verse 18 of this same chapter John tells us that “God” is the Father (YEHOVAH) — NOT Yeshua the only begotten Son. If we believe what John is saying (that “God” is the Father), then let us examine the scriptures back to verse 1. In verse 13 “God” must refer to the Father (YEHOVAH) — likewise in verse 12. In verse 2 we find “God” again. Staying in context with John 1:18, John tells us that “God” is the Father (YEHOVAH) — NOT the Son. Verse 1 has the word “God” two times. Again, staying in context with verse 18, we find John telling us that “God” is the FATHER, not the Son!
According to John there is only ONE entity — although appearing in different forms — mentioned in John 1:1. And that One is YEHOVAH God the Father, the Almighty Creator!
In John 1:14 this same “Word” that was an integral part of YEHOVAH God the Father (since the “Word” was with or in the Father) anointed His human Son Yeshua. The “Word” in John 1:14 was not a pre-existing Yeshua. The “Word” — or “Shekinah Glory” of YEHOVAH God the Father anointed Yeshua, the second Adam. A similar event occurred previously when the “Shekinah Glory” of YEHOVAH God the Father produced a fleshly tabernacle for the first Adam.
Looking at the Aramaic version of John 1:1 and 14 we read:
Verse 1: “In the beginning [of creation] there was the MANIFESTATION [SHEKINAH GLORY]; and that MANIFESTATION [SHEKINAH GLORY] was with God [YEHOVAH]; and God [YEHOVAH] was [the embodiment of] that MANIFESTATION [SHEKINAH GLORY].”
Verse 14: “And the MANIFESTATION [SHEKINAH GLORY] became flesh and made his [correctly, “its”] dwelling amongst us and we saw His [YEHOVAH's Shekinah] glory, glory as [that] uniquely [of the nature] of the Creator, full of grace and blessing.”
YEHOVAH God the Father dwelt — or “tabernacled” — with His earthly creation on a number of occasions — both in His Shekinah Glory form AND in a human form! Notice Genesis 18, which shows YEHOVAH God the Father appearing to Abraham in a “human” form.
Did the Logos always exist, together with the Father, as a separate Being and member of the Godhead? Not at all! The Logos or Word was clearly a component or form of YEHOVAH God that could be viewed by human-beings without dire consequences. Notice what the Encyclopedia Judaica says about the Word or Shekinah Glory:
According to Saadiah Gaon [882-942 C.E.], the Shekhinah is identical with kevod ha-Shem (the glory of God”), which served as an INTERMEDIARY BETWEEN GOD AND MAN during the prophetic experience. He suggests that the “glory of God” is the Biblical term, and Shekhinah the Talmudic term for the created splen
dor of light which ACTS AS AN INTERMEDIARY BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, and which sometimes TAKES ON HUMAN FORM. Thus when Moses asked to see the glory of God, HE WAS SHOWN THE SHEKHINAH, and when the prophets in their visions saw God in HUMAN LIKENESS, what they actually saw WAS NOT GOD HIMSELF BUT THE SHEKHINAH (see Saadiah's interpretation of Ezekiel 1:26, I Kings 22:19, and Daniel 7:9 in Book of Beliefs and Opinions 2:10).E. W. Bullinger says of the number “two”:
“We now come to the spiritual significance of the number Two. We have seen that One excludes all difference, and denotes that which is sovereign. But Two affirms that there is a difference — there is another; while One affirms that there is not another!
“This difference may be for good or for evil. A thing may differ from evil, and be good; or it may differ from good, and be evil. Hence, the number Two takes a two- fold colouring, according to the context.
“It is the first number by which we can divide another, and therefore in all its uses we may trace this fundamental idea of division or difference” (Number in Scripture, page 92).
YEHOVAH GOD the Father is “Number One.” The “Word” or Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH God is “Number Two.” It is the form or IMAGE of the Father that can be observed by man — the very stamp impress, the very express likeness! Thus, although “two” could have been different from the “One,” the Logos or Shekinah Glory is in reality exactly like the “One” in every way — a true presentation of the Father! It is the form of YEHOVAH God that acts as as intermediary between YEHOVAH God and man, and which can sometimes take on a human form as we observed in Genesis 18.
SOURCEWHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:35) If we replace the word “Manifestation” with the words “Shekinah Glory” in these verses of John, then we clearly see that “The Word” is none other than YEHOVAH'S Shekinah Glory!
So then it was Jehovah's glory that was made flesh, and dwelled among mankind with the glory of Jehovah's SON?
Hmmm…………. How can the glory of God have its own glory? And why would the glory of the glory of God be the glory of the Son of God?
Strange brew, Frank. Non-preexisters are apparently blind to the NONSENSE they have to con themselves into believing – just to avoid believing what the scriptures actually teach.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,05:34) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,11:52) Mike, If you enjoy entering into an endless dispute concerning Greek grammar……………….
I'm not looking for an “endless dispute”, Frank. I'm simply asking, since you are fond of “the logos was sublime”, if you actually have any support that the word “theos” in 1:1c can be used as an adjective?Apparently you don't.
Mike,And you are fond of Father Yahweh's “Word” as an actual being that was with Him in the beginning and was “a god” that I find very foolish!
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,05:39) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:35) If we replace the word “Manifestation” with the words “Shekinah Glory” in these verses of John, then we clearly see that “The Word” is none other than YEHOVAH'S Shekinah Glory!
So then it was Jehovah's glory that was made flesh, and dwelled among mankind with the glory of Jehovah's SON?Hmmm…………. How can the glory of God have its own glory? And why would the glory of the glory of God be the glory of the Son of God?
Strange brew, Frank. Non-preexisters are apparently blind to the NONSENSE they have to con themselves into believing – just to avoid believing what the scriptures actually teach.
YEHOVAH's Shekinah Glory
Most people have little understanding of what the Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH God is, let alone realize the prophetic significance of this manifestation of God. The Jewish rabbis coined this extra-biblical expression, and it is form of a Hebrew word that literally means “he caused to dwell” — signifying that it was a divine visitation of the presence or dwelling of YEHOVAH God on this earth. In order to fully understand the prophetic passages in the book of Revelation, we need to thoroughly grasp the concept of the physical manifestations of our Creator God.
John D. KeyserYehovah's Shekinah Glory in History – Part 1
John D. KeyserWHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:59) Most people have little understanding of what the Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH God is, let alone realize the prophetic significance of this manifestation of God.
So a “manifestation of God” was made flesh, and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's SON?Doesn't it make more sense that the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son was in fact God's only begotten Son?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:46) Mike, And you are fond of Father Yahweh's “Word” as an actual being that was with Him in the beginning and was “a god” that I find very foolish!
Yes Frank,I am quite fond of beliefs that are actually taught in the scriptures. We know Jesus is a god, for he is called such. We know he is not the Most High God, for that One is his God and Father. And we know the Word was an actual being from Rev 19:13. We also know that all things were said to have been created through the Word, AND through Jesus.
There are also many more things we know from scripture that support my belief. I've listed only a couple.
But, concerning our current dispute, we KNOW that “a god” is a possible translation of the Greek text in John 1:1c. I have shown expert testimony that “sublime” is NOT a possibility. So…………. will you continue to use “sublime” in spite of this testimony – and just pretend that this testimony doesn't exist? Will you produce expert testimony of your own to support “sublime”? What exactly will you do, Frank?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,11:19) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:59) Most people have little understanding of what the Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH God is, let alone realize the prophetic significance of this manifestation of God.
So a “manifestation of God” was made flesh, and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's SON?Doesn't it make more sense that the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son was in fact God's only begotten Son?
Mike,Yes, Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word was MANIFEST (MADE KNOWN) in the flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua! How many times do I have to tell you what it is that I believe before you get it through you thick head? This makes perfect sense to me!
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,11:23) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:46) Mike, And you are fond of Father Yahweh's “Word” as an actual being that was with Him in the beginning and was “a god” that I find very foolish!
Yes Frank,I am quite fond of beliefs that are actually taught in the scriptures. We know Jesus is a god, for he is called such. We know he is not the Most High God, for that One is his God and Father. And we know the Word was an actual being from Rev 19:13. We also know that all things were said to have been created through the Word, AND through Jesus.
There are also many more things we know from scripture that support my belief. I've listed only a couple.
But, concerning our current dispute, we KNOW that “a god” is a possible translation of the Greek text in John 1:1c. I have shown expert testimony that “sublime” is NOT a possibility. So…………. will you continue to use “sublime” in spite of this testimony – and just pretend that this testimony doesn't exist? Will you produce expert testimony of your own to support “sublime”? What exactly will you do, Frank?
Mike,FACT: Nowhere in Scripture does it actually teach that Father Yahweh's word was an actual being that was with Him in the beginning and was “a god”!
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,03:37) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 25 2012,06:03) the bible said that Christ BECAME FLESH
BUT BEFORE THAT, HE WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD.
That's right, jammin.Jesus was in the form OF God. Those words mean that Jesus was someone OTHER THAN God.
that is just your illusion again mike.i did not say that the father is the son. the son is not the father. the father is not the son.
but they have the same nature and that is nature God.
are you in the form of MAN?? does it mean that you are not MAN if you have the form/nature of MAN?yes or no???
are you an animal mike??? yes or no?
———-
Christ became flesh. the flesh body died.
that is what the bible says.
Christ had a truly human body (1tim 2.5)of course the father did not become flesh. the son did that for us.
for those who believe Christ as the only son of God (john3.16). for those who believe that he is God and Lord. (john 20.28)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,03:35) Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 24 2012,22:26) Jammin doctrines is: Truly God spoke in behalf of truly God and more worst is, his God/Nature became or transformed into human nature. Meaning Jammin is no more truly God. God became human.
Not only became human, but DIED. My God never died, because my God CAN'T die.Quote Not only became human, but DIED. My God never died, because my God CAN'T die. Mike,
WHAT IS YOUR GOD MIKE???
PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS THE ONLY GLORIFIED GOD
CHARLES
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,01:42) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2012,01:52) Mike, According to your words you believe the Son, a being with a ghost body, transformed into a human being.
A being with a “spiritual” body, Kerwin. Jesus was existing in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being, right? So would you say God has a “ghost body”?Anyway, whatever form in which Jehovah exists is the form in which Jesus was existing before being made flesh.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2012,01:52) You object because the method of this wonder is not written in John 1:14 though it is clearly written other places in various forms. The method is that the Utterance of God becomes human whenever God writes it on a person's heard and places it in them.
You are correct that EVENTUALLY, the word of God will be written on each man's heart, so no one will have to ask his neighbor about God. (Jeremiah 31:33-34) That time is in the future, not now. If it was now, then we wouldn't still be trying to fulfill Jesus' last assignment of teaching the Kingdom of God to the four corners of the earth, right?Also, you pretend to not understand the various meanings of “word” in the Bible. Surely you are adept enough to understand the difference between a written word from a man, a spoken word from God, and an individual being who has the title “the Word of God”, right?
Jesus is an individual being who is called “the Word of God”, yet the being of Jesus Christ is not “the word of God” which will be written on the hearts of all men in the future. Can you recognize the TWO DIFFERENT meanings of “word of God” here?
Mike,Quote A being with a “spiritual” body, Kerwin. Jesus was existing in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being, right? So would you say God has a “ghost body”? * A ghost is said to be composed of spirit and so has a body of sorts.
* God is not created and therefore should not be thought of as being created.
* no body can contain God.
* God is the base force by which all that exists, exists. His Spirit is the elemental force of righteousness and holiness.
* He uses the bodies of of others for his purpose; and that is why at certain times angels are called Jehovah.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,19:22) Mike, Yes, Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word was MANIFEST (MADE KNOWN) in the flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua! How many times do I have to tell you what it is that I believe before you get it through you thick head? This makes perfect sense to me!
And how many times do I have to tell you that the word “IN” is not in John 1:14?John teaches us that the Word BECAME flesh – not that the Word “was manifested IN the flesh of God's Son Yahshua”.
Your understanding relies upon ADDING a word to the scripture, Frank. It is only one little word, but that word completely CHANGES the teaching. Are you happy with CHANGING the teaching of John 1:14 so your doctrine comes out on top?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,19:29) Mike, FACT: Nowhere in Scripture does it actually teach that Father Yahweh's word was an actual being that was with Him in the beginning and was “a god”!
Sure it does – in MANY places. Here's just one of them:John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.If THE BEING Jesus said that HE had glory in God's presence before the world began, then it is clear that THE BEING Jesus DID have glory in God's presence before the world began. Either that, or your Lord lied to you, Frank. Which is it?
Quote (jammin @ Aug. 25 2012,19:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,03:37) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 25 2012,06:03) the bible said that Christ BECAME FLESH
BUT BEFORE THAT, HE WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD.
That's right, jammin.Jesus was in the form OF God. Those words mean that Jesus was someone OTHER THAN God.
that is just your illusion again mike.i did not say that the father is the son. the son is not the father. the father is not the son.
Well jammin,If the Son is not the Father, and 1 Cor 8:6 teaches us that our one God is the Father, and Jesus teaches us the the Father is the only true God, what's left for you?
If the Father is God, and Jesus is NOT the Father, what does that tell you?
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