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Frank,
You didn't address this part of my post:
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 25 2012,20:10) He is referred to as such because it is his and our Father Yahweh's word that proceeds from his mouth and it is he who is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.
Exactly! He is referred to as “the Word of God” because he spoke the words of God to the people in this last time period.Frank, WHEN did Jesus speak the words of God to the people? Was it only AFTER he ascended to where he was before? Or did he do most of his speaking of the word of God while he was on earth as a human prophet of God?
If you answer truthfully and scripturally, you'll agree that Jesus did the vast majority of his speaking as a human being on earth. And if that is WHEN he was doing most of his work as God's spokesman, then doesn't it make sense that the title “the Word of God” applied to him at this time?
So when John tells us that the Word of God became flesh and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten, why wouldn't John be talking about that same spokesman of God who is called by the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13?
Hi MB,
Because in the beginning the Word was with God and was God.
Jesus of Nazareth was not God or with God in the beginning.I was actually hoping for a SCRIPTURAL reason, Nick…………not your usual, “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Why wasn't it Jesus who had glory alongside God before the world began? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Why wasn't it Jesus who came down from heaven since it was Jesus who said he did? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Why wasn't it Jesus who was existing in the form of God before he was made into a human being? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Doesn't Jesus being both the Root AND the Branch of David say that he was both before AND after David? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Doesn't Col 1:15-16 speak about everything in heaven and on earth, whether visible or invisible, being created through Jesus? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
How about 1 Cor 8:6? Doesn't it say that all things came through Jesus? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
When Jesus says he will ascend to where he WAS BEFORE, and then ascends to heaven, doesn't it mean that heaven is where he WAS BEFORE? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Just once, I would like to see a SCRIPTURAL reason why Jesus didn't pre-exist.
Mike,
Scripture teaches you Jesus was conceived and therefore did not preexist. You do not believe it so why would you believe anyone else?
Jesus had glory with God before the world began; he did not have it with himself as he was not there and had not yet sacrificed himself, been resurrected, and ascended to mediate the new covenant from his throne.
Hi MB,
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.Hi MB,
John 17:14
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2012,12:22) Frank, You didn't address this part of my post:
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 25 2012,20:10) He is referred to as such because it is his and our Father Yahweh's word that proceeds from his mouth and it is he who is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.
Exactly! He is referred to as “the Word of God” because he spoke the words of God to the people in this last time period.Frank, WHEN did Jesus speak the words of God to the people? Was it only AFTER he ascended to where he was before? Or did he do most of his speaking of the word of God while he was on earth as a human prophet of God?
If you answer truthfully and scripturally, you'll agree that Jesus did the vast majority of his speaking as a human being on earth. And if that is WHEN he was doing most of his work as God's spokesman, then doesn't it make sense that the title “the Word of God” applied to him at this time?
So when John tells us that the Word of God became flesh and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten, why wouldn't John be talking about that same spokesman of God who is called by the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13?
Mike,I never said that the author of the so-called “Gospel of John” did not know Yahshua as the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period. The author is not speaking of Yahshua pre-existing his birth as a separate being as Father Yahweh's word in the beginning. He is simply speaking of Father Yahweh's word that existed with Him in the beginning that had power, strength and might.
You can thump on and direct your Trinitarian concept of a “pre-existent Son” and so called “Holy Bible” translation of this passage to me till you are blue in the face for all I care, but I will never stoop to those weak and beggarly ways of pagan/devil/god/goddess worship.
You must just love to be owned!
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,08:06) Hi MB,
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Nick and Mike,“for he dwelleth with you” is present tense
“shall be in you” is future tense.
Hi Frank,
The Spirit of Christ that was in the prophets [1peter1.11] and in Christ Jesus proceeded forth and came from God [jn 8.42].This is the Word that was with God and was God in the beginning.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,13:42) Hi Frank,
The Spirit of Christ that was in the prophets [1peter1.11] and in Christ Jesus proceeded forth and came from God [jn 8.42].This is the Word that was with God and was God in the beginning.
Nick,I believe I have always expressed that Father Yahweh's word was with Him in the beginning and that the sword (weapon) of the spirit is His word and that it had power, strength and might. His word is sharper than a two-edged sword. In other words, His word is more powerful than a double-barreled shot gun.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 26 2012,20:32) Mike, I never said that the author of the so-called “Gospel of John” did not know Yahshua as the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period. The author is not speaking of Yahshua pre-existing his birth as a separate being as Father Yahweh's word in the beginning. He is simply speaking of Father Yahweh's word that existed with Him in the beginning that had power, strength and might.
So in other words, you have absolutely NO scriptural reason whatsoever to claim that the Word who became flesh and had the glory of God's only begotten Son was NOT the Jesus we know to have been flesh and God's only begotten Son?Instead, it makes more sense to you that God was WITH Himself in the beginning, and His spoken word somehow BECAME FLESH?
So really, it's just a case of “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't”, like I said, right?
Frank, when God's spoken word became flesh, WHO WAS IT? You say it was not Jesus………….so WHO WAS IT when it became flesh?
Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2012,20:06) Mike, Scripture teaches you Jesus was conceived and therefore did not preexist. You do not believe it so why would you believe anyone else?
Kerwin, you nonsensically claim that it would be impossible for God to cause Michael the archangel to become conceived in a human woman's womb, and be born as a human from that woman. I say that God not only CAN do that (because ALL IS POSSIBLE for God), but that God already HAS done something similar in the case of Jesus.
YES Kerwin! I get it! Jesus was concieved AS A HUMAN BEING in Mary. But there is NOTHING in that statement that says he couldn't have existed in the form of God BEFORE he was conceived AS A HUMAN BEING in the womb of Mary. In fact, there are scriptures that say he DID!
Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2012,20:06) Jesus had glory with God before the world began; he did not have it with himself as he was not there………..
Then the words “I HAD” have no meaning, Kerwin. If Jesus wasn't there, then there is no way he could have said he HAD that glory alongside God. In order to even BE “alongside God”, he would have had to existed.Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2012,13:37) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,08:06) Hi MB,
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Nick and Mike,“for he dwelleth with you” is present tense
“shall be in you” is future tense.
Hi KW,
Indeed this was before the death of Jesus and the sending of the Spirit of Christ at Pentecost.frank,
read the context boy LOL
14και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο και εσκηνωσεν εν ημιν και εθεασαμεθα την δοξαν αυτου δοξαν ως μονογενους παρα πατρος πληρης χαριτος και αληθειας
15ιωαννης μαρτυρει περι αυτου και κεκραγεν λεγων ουτος ην ον ειπον ο οπισω μου ερχομενος εμπροσθεν μου γεγονεν οτι πρωτος μου ην
16και εκ του πληρωματος αυτου ημεις παντες ελαβομεν και χαριν αντι χαριτος
17οτι ο νομος δια μωσεως εδοθη η χαρις και η αληθεια δια ιησου χριστου εγενετο
18θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο
what did john said?
did he say that the word is the
1. Holy spirit
2. son of GODpls choose your answer
Mike,
Quote YES Kerwin! I get it! Jesus was conceived AS A HUMAN BEING in Mary. But there is NOTHING in that statement that says he couldn't have existed in the form of God BEFORE he was conceived AS A HUMAN BEING in the womb of Mary. In fact, there are scriptures that say he DID! Scripture does not say that Jesus existed as an angel prior to his conception. What is does state is he is of the Seed of David as regards and the Son of God as regards the spirit of Love within him; since he loves as God loves. It is simple to see that he is the Seed of David because the Spirit of God created him out of a part of Mary; even as she also created John the Baptist out of the fusion of a part from each of his parents. What is the more important part of Jesus according to God’s point of view; his body or his spirit?
Quote Then the words “I HAD” have no meaning, Kerwin. If Jesus wasn't there, then there is no way he could have said he HAD that glory alongside God. In order to even BE “alongside God”, he would have had to existed. It does not state he was alongside God and for Yahweh to have the glory reserved for him; all that was required is foreknowledge. God has that in an infinite supply.
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