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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,13:39) Hi MB,
Are you not yet a son begotten of God?
No Nick, for Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God.mike
Hi MB,
ONLY BEGOTTEN is one word, not two, in greek.
It means something different to what you imagineQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2010,15:48) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,13:39) Hi MB,
Are you not yet a son begotten of God?
No Nick, for Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God.mike
Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, but we who have received Christ have been grafted into the vine so that we may be joint heirs with the Son, also sons of God, born of the Spirit.Mike,
Quote Please directly answer this logic. If God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Jesus, then Jesus simply wasn't God, or that fullness would have already been dwelling in him. Would it make sense if I said I was pleased to have all the fullness of Mike dwell in Mike?
The Logic doesnt matter, if we are going to stick to bible, the bible doesnt state its the fullness of GOD, that its ALL FULLNESS (IN GERNERAL) dwells in him.
if we are going to take any steps further, what is the fullness?Quote I resent that implication. You said God HAD to redeem us through Jesus. I said you were limiting a limitless God and He could have just wiped us all out. You again limited God by saying He couldn't have done that because He is love. So I showed you many instances when humans were either wiped out or were about to be wiped out to show you God could still be love whether sinful humans existed or not. I simply do NOT like that you limit the ways God HAD to do things. That is all.
Im not limiting God. Mike its so simple, i am take an observation that is very clear. God chose to redeem us thruogh christ period. He doesnt want to do it any other way, that he has presented to us. So if we are going to stick to bible, than anything else is speculation and irrevalent.
God CHOSE to do it that ways, and he doestn want to do it any other way!Quote f course it's man and God we're discussing. Remember? You said Jesus was FULLY man and FULLY God? And why would Christ existing as the Word have anything to do with FULLY man and FULLY God? Haven't you noticed that most of Jesus' titles contain OF God? Word OF God, Son OF God, Anointed one OF God, the outstretched Arm OF God. And he was the Savior OF God's people. He is (or will be) King OF God's Kingdom. Think it out, he is OF God and calls God “my God”. Isn't that a strange way for “God” to talk? Does God have a God? peace and love,
mike
Its irrevelant. Jesus wasnt man before flesh. I know what i said. but than again, when he became flesh, which is a limitation to his previous state, then man part would represent the limitation. btu what is the orginal glory, or state. Jesus showed his “True” revelation/state/form, on the mount of transfigeration, changing from man to whatever he his. thats my point. What is that. and before flesh what is that? Jsut a God begoting God, or something else, or God.Much love mike,
sorry if my responses have been really off,
lets just say i been out of it lately
Personal reasons.
God bless.
Hi Dennison,
You said:
Quote The Logic doesnt matter, if we are going to stick to bible, the bible doesnt state its the fullness of GOD, that its ALL FULLNESS (IN GERNERAL) dwells in him. Unless there is another scripture you are talking about, it most definitely says “God” in one form or another.
Colossians 2:9
King James Version
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.New Living Translation
For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body,Complete Jewish Bible
For in him, bodily, lives the fullness of all that God is.English Standard Version
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,New American Standard
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,New International Version About NIV
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,So again, please answer the logic. Why would it need to be said that all the fullness of God dwells in God? Wouldn't that be like a “DUH” moment?
What about Col 1:19?
19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Why would it please GOD to have all of GOD'S fullness dwell inside of Himself? Another “DUH” moment?
You said:
Quote Im not limiting God. Mike its so simple, i am take an observation that is very clear. God chose to redeem us thruogh christ period. Thank you. God CHOSE to do it this way, He didn't HAVE TO.
You said:
Quote btw what is the orginal glory, or state? Another good point. Jesus was returned to (at least) his previous glory and position. That position is now at the right hand of the One he calls “my God”. That is NOT a position of equality, but of honor from the One who placed him in this most esteemed position. So if he is not God now, but at his God's right hand, and this is the former position he was returned to, then he must not have been God before, either.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2010,09:52) Hi Dennison, You said:
Quote The Logic doesnt matter, if we are going to stick to bible, the bible doesnt state its the fullness of GOD, that its ALL FULLNESS (IN GERNERAL) dwells in him. Unless there is another scripture you are talking about, it most definitely says “God” in one form or another.
Colossians 2:9
King James Version
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.New Living Translation
For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body,Complete Jewish Bible
For in him, bodily, lives the fullness of all that God is.English Standard Version
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,New American Standard
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,New International Version About NIV
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,So again, please answer the logic. Why would it need to be said that all the fullness of God dwells in God? Wouldn't that be like a “DUH” moment?
What about Col 1:19?
19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Why would it please GOD to have all of GOD'S fullness dwell inside of Himself? Another “DUH” moment?
You said:
Quote Im not limiting God. Mike its so simple, i am take an observation that is very clear. God chose to redeem us thruogh christ period. Thank you. God CHOSE to do it this way, He didn't HAVE TO.
You said:
Quote btw what is the orginal glory, or state? Another good point. Jesus was returned to (at least) his previous glory and position. That position is now at the right hand of the One he calls “my God”. That is NOT a position of equality, but of honor from the One who placed him in this most esteemed position. So if he is not God now, but at his God's right hand, and this is the former position he was returned to, then he must not have been God before, either.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,Quote Unless there is another scripture you are talking about, it most definitely says “God” in one form or another.
Colossians 2:9
King James Version
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
So again, please answer the logic. Why would it need to be said that all the fullness of God dwells in God? Wouldn't that be like a “DUH” moment?
What about Col 1:19?
19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Why would it please GOD to have all of GOD'S fullness dwell inside of Himself? Another “DUH” moment?Mike i think we have a misunderstading here. this is what i read. I didnt see where it says possively that the fullness being refered to here belongs to the father directly for say.
Col 1:19-For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;I didnt see that it says the fullness of the father.
Even though i understand what you now mean about the Godhead fullness point you made. but im refferring to this one.
This one mentions the ALL and FULLNESS but doesnt refer to what fullness it speaks of. The context applys16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him allthings consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.Referring to the context, i think the fullness refers to the general fullness of life and everything created.
what do you think?
Your logic:
Well if time wasnt an issue. and I at this very moment is eternal and not limited in any way, yet at some point i was a child, who was limited, since time isnt an issue anymore, could i say that this child is not me.
Christ as we know is the IMAGE of the invisible God. a limited entity that CREATED and had potential to even become FLESH from before assuming that he was SPIRIT. Christ somehow had the power to be from spirit to flesh, than enough to answer for Sin and ressurect, and return in victory.God participating in this world is a limitation because he is eternal. and what becomes limited, needs the eternal still.
what becomes mortal still needs the immortal.My direct answer. Jesus representing the limited particaption as the word and as the creator and as the IMAGE of the invisible God, we can reword this by saying he is the known manifestation of the unknowable God, the image of the unseen God. Jesus is the limited entity that needs the eternal no matter in what situation. Yet the limitation is filled with the full power of etenity in him. which bridges the gap between eternity and time.
I know that you wont agree with this, but lets continue,
Do you believe that God who is eternal can particpate within Time, Space, and Matter is a limitation.
He is eternal, which is above time.
he is omni present who doestn fit in the pocket of the universe or in the earth.
and not limited in life, and created things.
not limited in energy nor in matter.
he cannot be limited to a occupied space.Quote Thank you. God CHOSE to do it this way, He didn't HAVE TO.
Cool. great finally we have an understanding. but for real though i dont like playing the could have, or what if game.Quote Another good point. Jesus was returned to (at least) his previous glory and position. That position is now at the right hand of the One he calls “my God”. That is NOT a position of equality, but of honor from the One who placed him in this most esteemed position. So if he is not God now, but at his God's right hand, and this is the former position he was returned to, then he must not have been God before, either. God wants to be everything to us. God is not only great in the best of things, not only in spirit, but also in the smallest most meaning less things, even the physical. God is spirit that is Clear. but even the limited since has all fullness in him. that God maybe all in all.
Is God only the Father? I mean it seems to me we compare Christ as the Father who is the creator. wait Christ created.Yet Father also holds all the previous names of th
e old testament. but those were all roles of God.
El- Elohim, JehovahMy middle name Joel- means Jehovah is God. or God is the Lord.
Yet Father is not a name? we have the right to present ourselves to our father as Abba but is father the name of God?
Jehovah-Rafa
God our healer, IS God only our healer when pain is present.
God is only Father when children are born.
There is a purpose of the Son of God.God is the title of a supreme being. Jesus meets those requierements. he is not a demi God, he has a compelete fullness about him.
Much love,
Mike,
Look forward to more revelation.
I only wish the Holy Spirit would come on more, but I understand that there has to be opposition in order to progress in truth (This is no paradox…kerwin…One cannot build muscle mass unless you exercise againsta resistent force…build Scriptural muscle mass in truth ysing the resistence of untruth)
Quote (JustAskin @ June 26 2010,14:52) Mike, Look forward to more revelation.
I only wish the Holy Spirit would come on more, but I understand that there has to be opposition in order to progress in truth (This is no paradox…kerwin…One cannot build muscle mass unless you exercise againsta resistent force…build Scriptural muscle mass in truth ysing the resistence of untruth)
I never though there was since the proverb that states “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another” is true, Proverbs 27:17.Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2010,20:11) Quote (JustAskin @ June 26 2010,14:52) Mike, Look forward to more revelation.
I only wish the Holy Spirit would come on more, but I understand that there has to be opposition in order to progress in truth (This is no paradox…kerwin…One cannot build muscle mass unless you exercise againsta resistent force…build Scriptural muscle mass in truth ysing the resistence of untruth)
I never though there was since the proverb that states “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another” is true, Proverbs 27:17.Your fellow student,
Kerwin
This creates an interesting thought. I agree that opposing forces creates experience. One cannot know hot without its relation to cold, up to down, high as to low, etc.! This is the way of relativity.
So untruth/demons/lies/devils would be necessary to know and experience the truth. We can't know the feeling of life seeming to be apart from God without experiencing/feeling as though we are separated from God. That is sin/error/wrong thinking! In reality we cannot be apart from God who is everywhere.Man accepted an illusion in his mind of evil or an opposing force to God, by believing that he could be separated from God through something he had done or not done. That is man created religion. It is error. Not truth.
God never leaves us, yet we can choose to believe we are separated from him. We leave God!
Belief connects us, unbelief is an illusion of separation which is sin/error! Jesus shows us the way back to God. BY FAITH THAT HE IS WITHIN. Not by good works or bad works, God is within his temple made without hands, you, who believe.IMO, God bless, TK
Tim,
You were doing well until you stumbled at the last hurdle.
Untruth is not 'illusion'. It is Real.
But yet I understand what you were trying to say.
Untruth cuts us off from God because God hates to look upon evil. It doesn't mean God can't see evil. God desires those of untruth to become truthful, but He Himself will not 'Touch' that which is sinful.
This is also another 'proof' that God did not 'personally' come to earth but sent His representative, His perfect Servant, His most Glorious Spirit Son, Jesus (as he would be named). This Servant Son, perfectly showed the 'spirit of the Father' so much so that it could be virtually said that it was 'God Himself' and there in lies the lie…that the trinitarians exploit.
But Jesus was in the flesh. “God is Spirit” Therefore, and, “God is not Man”, therefore Jesus cannot be God. The King's embassador is not 'the King' himself. Only 'Desperarians' try to say so.JA: Thank you for the response. If in the beginning was God/good and God/good was everywhere and everything, then all that existed with God and Adam in the garden was good! God is good and God is all and in all. Has Adam chosen the tree of life/good there would have been no evil. Yet of all the avenues of wisdom in the garden, Adam chose to split God (in his mind, he didn't really split God) by accepting both good and evil. Adam had the power to make his own choice of what he would believe. As a man believeth so he is. That doesn't mean that it was true, he didn't really split God but in his mind he made the choice and began to immediately feel fear that he had done wrong and God was angry. It was his right to choose. God was not angry. God just pronounced the consequences of his choice. Adam wanted to hide from God. Adam never ask God for forgiveness because it wasn't a sin/error. It was a free will choice!
From that point Adam continued to try to appease God through offerings and other works. God was not mad or angry. Adam believed incorrectly. In Adams mind he felt separated from God. He wasn't separated in truth. It was a mental illusion. He believed incorrectly.
This is the origin of sin. Man incorrectly believing he was in sin/error and separated from God. Now only faith could make a reconnection of mans mind to God. Sin was wrong beliefs. Sin has always been wrong thinking. Jesus came with the truth that the Kingdom of God or the ruling power of God is within. It always has been God never left. Man left God through illusion of sin/error. Any man who believed like Abraham on down the line was counted righteous unto God. Just by believing! IMO, God bless, TKQuote (JustAskin @ June 26 2010,15:33) Aggh….. Kerwin…sorry ol' boy! I Meant Rokkaman…
My mistake….
Appology accepted!
Your fellow student
Kerwin
Tim,
You still not getting it.
Adam WAS cut off.
God dismissed him from His presence. It was not illision. It was REAlity.
God cursed the earth for their sake. He made the man 'work for his living among the dust of the earth'. This means that God withdrew the Holy Spirit from Adam…this is cutting off… But He put in place a process of recovery. The woman, he cursed in childbirth AND by making her a 'maid' to the man.
Men and Women are not 'equal' in status by God's decree. But, yes, flesh is flesh…not the point, though…the Man is the head of the woman because….'it was she who first sinned but sin does not come from the woman but from the man' because Adam was the one that God gave the senior role to but Adam 'gave himself up to the lust of the woman'Tim,
Perhaps you just not explaining yourself properly.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,14:35) [
I forget things very easily.And Gene was referrring to another thread where he posed this same question and we already butted our heads till a bloody mess and got no where.
but again, him like others, post things that dont make sense.
at times.and he knows that im not a brute, because i have agreed with him in other things. like the seven spirits of God thread.
so KJ accused me of cheating, Numbers accused me of speculating and adding to the word of God, and now Gene is stating that I DENNISON avoid posts.
Wow… is there another person named simplyforgiven here? because these accusations dont represent my character nor personality within this thread.
SF……..Sorry if i offended you > I can get frustrated at times, when someone doesn't get my points, but perhaps it's because i am not explaining them right.However , back to the original issue, my point is that Jesus is (NOT) GOD, When i quoted that scripture, you replied i was taking it out of context, i disagree with you there, I still am not sure what you meant by that. Are you saying Jesus is the word of GOD and is the exact same as GOD Himself. Are you saying that Jesus himself is the life himself to us, or is it that God the Father is Life to both Jesus and us alike which is the way i see it. I full well know Jesus showed us that life of GOD the Father it was (IN) him, but i don't believe it was (from) him.
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Hi Dennison,
You said:
Quote Referring to the context, i think the fullness refers to the general fullness of life and everything created.
what do you think?Okay. The NIV, which I quoted has “His fullness”. I see from the Greek that you are right – it just says “fullness”. But, by comparing 1:19 with 2:9, it is clear to me that it means God's fullness. But if it doesn't, so what? This “all fullness” dwells in Jesus for one reason only – because it pleased Jesus' Father and God for it to be this way.
You said:
Quote Well if time wasnt an issue. and I at this very moment is eternal and not limited in any way, yet at some point i was a child, who was limited, since time isnt an issue anymore, could i say that this child is not me.
Christ as we know is the IMAGE of the invisible God. a limited entity that CREATED and had potential to even become FLESH from before assuming that he was SPIRIT. Christ somehow had the power to be from spirit to flesh, than enough to answer for Sin and ressurect, and return in victory.What? To borrow a line from Stu….. it's English I'll grant you, but that doesn't seem to be much help.
You said:
Quote God is the title of a supreme being. Okay. But who is the most supreme of all? I don't understand how so many people want to go all weird and add totally crazy ideas to what the Bible teaches. It is really quite simple. God was alone. He begat a Son. He and His Son created everything else. If you begat a son it would simply mean that you are now the father to your son. Why should it be any different with God? Isn't He the one who set up our languages and understandings? Why would His Son also be Him when none of our sons are us? It's just silly to me.
peace and love,
mikeTo all………..Lets stay on subject here, Is Jesus (the) Word spoken of in John1:1 or is the Word Spoken of there God himself. Remember Jesus plainly said the words he spoke were (not) his words, so who can we reconcile this difference. I believe Jesus did speak GOD the Fathers Word to us , but I believe also those word did not come from himself as many do believe here. Where it say that they may Know you “the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”. some believe that some how puts Jesus on par with GOD as an equal, i disagree with that idea, We know GOD the FATHER as A GOD, we know Jesus as a Son of Man, by knowing both GOD and Jesus the man we can understand much about the salvation process is it is good that we understand Jesus and The only true God the Father , both of them. IMO
peace and love to you all…………………gene
Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 26 2010,21:36) JA: Thank you for the response. If in the beginning was God/good and God/good was everywhere and everything, then all that existed with God and Adam in the garden was good! God is good and God is all and in all. Has Adam chosen the tree of life/good there would have been no evil. Yet of all the avenues of wisdom in the garden, Adam chose to split God (in his mind, he didn't really split God) by accepting both good and evil. Adam had the power to make his own choice of what he would believe. As a man believeth so he is. That doesn't mean that it was true, he didn't really split God but in his mind he made the choice and began to immediately feel fear that he had done wrong and God was angry. It was his right to choose. God was not angry. God just pronounced the consequences of his choice. Adam wanted to hide from God. Adam never ask God for forgiveness because it wasn't a sin/error. It was a free will choice!
From that point Adam continued to try to appease God through offerings and other works. God was not mad or angry. Adam believed incorrectly. In Adams mind he felt separated from God. He wasn't separated in truth. It was a mental illusion. He believed incorrectly.
This is the origin of sin. Man incorrectly believing he was in sin/error and separated from God. Now only faith could make a reconnection of mans mind to God. Sin was wrong beliefs. Sin has always been wrong thinking. Jesus came with the truth that the Kingdom of God or the ruling power of God is within. It always has been God never left. Man left God through illusion of sin/error. Any man who believed like Abraham on down the line was counted righteous unto God. Just by believing! IMO, God bless, TK
Hi TimI don't even know what to say. You sure have some unscriptual views of God and life. You seem to think that you can just close your eyes and think “happy thoughts” and then there is no evil in the world. You think the OT's God is too mean and therefore people don't really need to read the OT. You think God wasn't angry at Adam and Eve, but it was all in their heads.
Wow, maybe it's time for you to actually re-read the OT, Tim. You have your facts messed up.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2010,01:44) To all………..Lets stay on subject here, Is Jesus (the) Word spoken of in John1:1 or is the Word Spoken of there God himself. Remember Jesus plainly said the words he spoke were (not) his words, so who can we reconcile this difference. I believe Jesus did speak GOD the Fathers Word to us , but I believe also those word did not come from himself as many do believe here. Where it say that they may Know you “the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”. some believe that some how puts Jesus on par with GOD as an equal, i disagree with that idea, We know GOD the FATHER as A GOD, we know Jesus as a Son of Man, by knowing both GOD and Jesus the man we can understand much about the salvation process is it is good that we understand Jesus and The only true God the Father , both of them. IMO peace and love to you all…………………gene
Hi Gene,And let's add John 1:18.
18No one has ever seen God, but the only begotten god,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
No one has ever seen God. But someone OTHER THAN GOD, who is at God's side, has explained God.
peace and love,
mike
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