JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2010,14:59)

Let me rephrase it.

I don't understand. YHVH is God. You say Jesus is NOT YHVH. There is only one God, so……?

mike

Jesus comes FROM YHVH.
Nothing in creation comes directly from YHVH…only Jesus.

Jesus is not YHVH himself (the original source of all things).
He comes directly from that source, being a PIECE of that source.

So he is AS much the source as the source is, itself.
But he is NOT the source.

Like a cup of ocean water is as MUCH ocean water as the ocean itself, yet it is not the ocean itself.

Jesus is as much God as YHVH is God, yet he is not directly YHVH.

This is so because Jesus is FROM YHVH…the bible says, a requisite for our faith is to believe Jesus is FROM God.

However it means the same thing to be from God and God.
Just like it meant the same thing to be God and with God (this expresses his division via manifestation) as John 1 states.
——

This understanding, establishes only 1 God, with many manifestations…(Bible says nothing wrong with God manifesting himself as many times as he wants, and every manifestation was recognized to be God himself)

And reconciles why we worship and pray to Jesus…in whom being a manifestation of God is credited to be the creator of all things (by his very hands) and why every knee shall bow to him. And why he is King of kings, Lord of lords.

It all makes sense if you understand Jesus is a manifestation of God…

If he's not, then christianity is very f***ed up, and all christians are going to hell for the greatest form of idolatry.

If Jesus was just a mere man annointed, then we're all screwed.

June 24, 2010 at 3:54 pm#199684

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Rm……All thing came from GOD, So you say Because Jesus had God's seed he is different then us , Well what about Adam and EVE are they also different because they had GOD Seed in them right, He was their Father, in fact the scripture calls Adam the SON of GOD. Why would you think what GOD did to Mary was and bigger thing then what He did to ADAM and EVE? IMO

peace and love…………………..gene

June 24, 2010 at 4:01 pm#199685

Participant

messed up, scroll down.

June 24, 2010 at 4:05 pm#199686

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 22 2010,10:35)

Hi RM:

You seem to want to use the words soul and spirit as being the same thing, and I do not believe that they are. The soul in my understanding is the mind, the will, and emotions. The spirit is the life that the person lives.

The Father and the Son (Jesus) are two distinct souls. They are not the same person each has his own mind, will and emotions. The Son was born into the world a living Soul. He was born an innocent man-child just like any other human being except that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of a woman, and not born the sperm of man. His body, then, was God's own flesh and blood.

Jesus said, that he who has seen him has seen the Father and he was speaking of seeing the Father through his obedience to the Father's Word, and therefore, the spirit that was formed within him, the Word of God, is God. God is a spirit of love. Jesus is the last Adam, and is the “express image of God's person”. God made man in his own image. The first man like Him in that he had a mind, a will, and emotions, and the last Adam like Him in that he is a spirit of love.

Yes, I believe we can say that God tasted death through the person of Jesus, His Christ and His Son in that He anguished through all that was done to His Son, but it was necessary in order to overcome what the most wicked man could do. Jesus obeyed God without sin in spite of what men could do to him.

The conclusion is that there is “Only One God”. All that is in this world and in this universe both seen and unseen comes from Him and Him alone.

Jesus is God's Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that is what the scripture states, and so, let's just leave it at that.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Good post, but when you said

Quote

Jesus said, that he who has seen him has seen the Father and he was speaking of seeing the Father through his obedience to the Father's Word, and therefore, the spirit that was formed within him

That is your interpretation. The bible doesn't explicitly conclude to YOUR conclusion. The same can be interpreted differently and can be taken literally. As in The Father manifested as a son…

When you also said

Quote

Jesus is the last Adam, and is the “express image of God's person”.

Nice how you manipulated that statement to fit your cause. Even though, the bible says that in hebrews. It also says, Jesus is the express image of God period.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Mind you, the word: OVER is not an inclusionary word, it's distinctive. If I say I STAND OVER YOU, it doesn't mean I stand WITH you, it means I stand ABOVE you.

So he is the firstborn above all creation.

The only thing above creation are Angels and God himself. And we know Jesus isn't an angel.

You also said

Quote

Yes, I believe we can say that God tasted death through the person of Jesus

I'm sorry, I don't agree. If this were so, then God tastes death through ALL OF US. And the bible explicitely states…

Is 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

It pleased YHVH to crush Jesus…

Quote

The conclusion is that there is “Only One God”. All that is in this world and in this universe both seen and unseen comes from Him and Him alone.

Scripture would agree with you, but disagree with your interpretation.

Because EVERYTHING SEEN AND UNSEEN WAS ATTRIBUTED TO THE SON JESUS CHRIST.

———-
Plus, by your logic and by scripture…we have only ONE GOD…am i right?'

Well you say WE HAVE ONLY ONE GOD, and I AGREE…I JUST BELIEVE WE HAVE ONLY ONE GOD WITH MANY MANIFESTATIONS.

I AM ATTACKED HOWEVER THAT MY APPROACH IS INCORRECT.

You stated scripture says Jesus is God's Son, lets leave it at that.

And I agree that he is God's Son, and you can leave it at that sure enough. But the dilemma is understanding WHAT IT MEANS TO BE THE OFFSPRING OF YHVH HIMSELF.

That's where i've taken my understanding.

What does it truly mean to be God's Son.

Well if you understand the eternality (if thats a word) of God, and his infinite vastness.

To be the offspring of such a being would be impossible.

The only way Jesus could be God's literal begotten son, is if Jesus was YHVH himself manifested as a son.

It's the only thing that could make sense.
——–
But wait, it seems scripture agrees with me!!!!

1 timothy 3:16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

– So i rest my case.

June 24, 2010 at 4:08 pm#199687

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:54)

peace and love…………………..gene

Because Adam and Eve were a part of creation. Jesus made creation. I would like to think that is wayyyyy bigger.

If Adam and Eve were God's son in the same light Jesus was…they wouldn't of sinned.

Righteousness is always greater than disobedience…

Isn't that simple logic?

Plus I would like for you to provide the verse that says Adam and Eve is/are the Son of God.

(Only cuz both adam and eve were one being at one time, before they were seperated).

June 24, 2010 at 4:23 pm#199689

GeneBalthrop

Participant

RM…..It doesn't say Eve was , that was my conclusion, But it certainly does say ADAM WAS A SON of GOD.

Luk 3:38….> Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD.

peace and love to you and yours……………gene

June 24, 2010 at 4:38 pm#199693

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,03:23)

RM…..It doesn't say Eve was , that was my conclusion, But it certainly does say ADAM WAS A SON of GOD.

Luk 3:38….> Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD.

peace and love to you and yours……………gene

well in the beginning God created man in his image, and seperated him and called him, them, male and female.

So Eve so too is Adam.

Some people refer to Adam, as Adam and Eve combined.

So when you say Adam is the Son of God, eve was once a part of Adam…so she can also be recognized as God's Son/Daughter…however you want to reconcile the hermaphroditeness (I know it's not a word) of the situation.

But if you choose to not believe Eve is The Son of God as much as Adam was, that's OK…don't think that interpretation counts for anything.

——–

But back to the subject, thanks for posting the verse that shows Adam is a Son of God.

Too bad, it didn't say he was a begotten son of God.

You see the difference between Adam and Jesus…is that Adam was a PART of creation.

He was MADE.

Almost like you would craft a chair, or car, or any inanimate object.

He was MADE from soil.

So he was a son of God in the sense of creation, just like many other prophets and the angels.

They were all made.

Jesus however, was begotten.

My understanding of begotten, is spawned.

Jesus actually came from the FABRIC of God himself.

That's my distinction between the two.

June 24, 2010 at 4:44 pm#199694

Participant

Also understand this…the meaning of people's names in the bible were just as important if not MORE important than the person itself.

If it were translated fully from hebrew to english…

The name adam would have been translated into Mankind.

Then we wouldn't so much be looking at it from the person of Adam but rather as mankind as a whole.

To tell the difference, would be nearly impossible as to what The OT was referring to.

To say Adam the person was The Son of God…

or Mankind is the Son of God, in distinction between Angels and other deities.

——

And if you perceive it from a stand point of mankind…you'd include Adam the person and Eve the person…helping understand that women too can be Daughters of God.

(Some people believe women shouldn't hold high offices in church, but I disagree and believe God can work through anyone).

———
This isn't a definate stance or position, this is just my opinion and interpretation.

Feel free to disagree, I can definately be wrong on this matter.

Except for the fact that Adam was a Son, within the limits of creation, and Jesus literally being a Son spawned from God's very own fabric.

June 24, 2010 at 4:52 pm#199696

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2010,20:17)

Hi SF,
The Spirit is of God and is one.
The Spirit was given to Jesus=the Spirit of Christ
The Spirit proceeds from God and we can reach the heart of God and be one in that Spirit.[Jn15, 1cor2. Jn17]

Jesus is a manifestation of God.

All manifestations of God were recognized to be YHVH himself.

Whether it be The Word of God, or The Angel of The Lord…
They were all recognized and worshipped as God.

From Abaraham > Moses > The Kings of Isarael…They all recognized the manifestations as God himself.

——
Lets understand what a manifestation of God is???

The Image of God within creation.
——

This isn't to be confused with being MADE in the image like mankind.

This is to be understood as, THE ACTUAL IMAGE of the invisble God within creation.

In Jesus' case…this image/manifestation was made to be HUMAN.

Now because God manifests himself in many forms and ways…does each manifestation attribute to God being a plurality?

More than one God?

No, ansolutely not….

There is and always will be One God.

Yet he manifests in many different forms. Jesus being one of them.

So when I say Jesus is God.

I say that in the same light as The Angel of The Lord was recognized as YHVH, or The Word of God was recognized as YHVH.

So I too recognize Jesus in Flesh as the manifestation of YHVH.

June 24, 2010 at 6:38 pm#199697

GeneBalthrop

Participant

RM…..Jesus referenced Our Father and His Father as the Same Person or being, “for I am going to my Father and Your Father, my God and Your God. He did not seem to make any destination of himself and ourselves”. We are told to pray
Our Father which art in Heaven” , and many other places reference God the father as Equally our Father as Jesus'. IMO

I believe the word Begotten is just another word for brought into (BEING).

peace and love…………………….gene

June 24, 2010 at 6:49 pm#199698

Participant

Hi RM,
Jesus is the Son of God. The Spirit of Christ is the manifestation of God.
He was filled with the Spirit.

June 25, 2010 at 1:36 am#199749

Blocked

Quote (JustAskin @ June 24 2010,19:11)

The Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God become one Spirit, one embodiment in you and that one becomes one with your own spirit making you one spirit in all. This means agreement of purpose and desire, all three spirits acting in perfect unison, a single spiritual embodiment.

Hi JA,

Spirit is my area of least understanding, I think. But you did a fantastic job explaining all that in your post. I'm starting to get it, and will look forward to getting to Romans this time through the Bible so I can apply your understanding to the scripture. (I'm only in Ezekiel so far, so it will be a while. )

peace and love,
mike

June 25, 2010 at 1:39 am#199750

Participant

Hi JA,
The spirit of all men including Jesus leaves at death.[Ecc12]
The only life after that is that of the new creation in God's Spirit.

June 25, 2010 at 1:42 am#199751

Blocked

Quote (JustAskin @ June 24 2010,19:11)

Hi JA,

peace and love,
mike

June 25, 2010 at 1:43 am#199752

Participant

Hi JA,
Our spirit does not become holy and then joined with God's.
We offer nothing useful back to God but He shares His life with us.

June 25, 2010 at 2:11 am#199757

Blocked

Hi Dennison,

You are going off on some quasi-time warp philosophy stuff occasionally. Let's stick to what the Bible teaches, and not imply we know whether God acted “within the boundaries of time” or in the 5th dimension or other such nonsense that isn't spoken of in scripture.

I said:

Quote

All the fullness of God would have already been in Jesus if he was God. If Jesus was God, then it means that Jesus was pleased to have all the fullness of Jesus dwell in Jesus.

Please directly answer this logic. If God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Jesus, then Jesus simply wasn't God, or that fullness would have already been dwelling in him. Would it make sense if I said I was pleased to have all the fullness of Mike dwell in Mike?

You said:

Quote

lets not play games if your just argueing for the sake of arugeing.

I resent that implication. You said God HAD to redeem us through Jesus. I said you were limiting a limitless God and He could have just wiped us all out. You again limited God by saying He couldn't have done that because He is love. So I showed you many instances when humans were either wiped out or were about to be wiped out to show you God could still be love whether sinful humans existed or not. I simply do NOT like that you limit the ways God HAD to do things. That is all.

You said:

Quote

you are stating that the Father is not the Son.
I say vise versa.

ok these are respective roles, not distinct identities.
Therefore its not man and fish, but Father and son.
Roles brother.

Unless your argueing Man and God.
which would make NO SENSE, since Christ existed before flesh as the Word.

Of course it's man and God we're discussing. Remember? You said Jesus was FULLY man and FULLY God? And why would Christ existing as the Word have anything to do with FULLY man and FULLY God? Haven't you noticed that most of Jesus' titles contain OF God? Word OF God, Son OF God, Anointed one OF God, the outstretched Arm OF God. And he was the Savior OF God's people. He is (or will be) King OF God's Kingdom. Think it out, he is OF God and calls God “my God”. Isn't that a strange way for “God” to talk? Does God have a God?

peace and love,
mike

June 25, 2010 at 2:33 am#199763

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,05:38)

I believe the word Begotten is just another word for brought into (BEING).

Hi Gene and RM,

RM, I agree with you 100% that Jesus was begotten, and that means he is the only thing in existence that came DIRECTLY from God. All other things came FROM God THROUGH Jesus and were CREATED by God through Jesus, not begotten by God like Jesus was.

And Gene, I would go farther than your statement and say that “brought into being” is EXACTLY what is meant by begotten. Actually, if refers more to fathers than mothers. We are begotten by fathers and born of mothers.

RM, why do you think that because Jesus came from God, he must be God? Do you think the Father and Son are two different beings, or one?

peace and love,
mike

June 25, 2010 at 2:39 am#199764