JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[banana]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 13 2009,02:36)

To All……….logoslogic, kerwin, con , martian, …………all have spoken the truth concerning Jesus' Preexistences. Simple logic would tell you if John meant Jesus in John 1:1, he simply would have written Jesus there. IMO The doctrine of preexistence is Just as bad a the doctrine of the Trinity they go hand and hand, leading people into false understandings of scriptures.  IMO gene

Gene The truth according to you, while you interpret the Scriptures, while I go by them. It says that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation and He was with God from the beginning. That is what goes with John 1:1.But you all seem to want to create something that is not there. Like it is the plan, or the intellect, of God ,that is not what it says. And that plan became flesh? Or that intellect became flesh? Give me a break…..Your self righteousness can get in your way. Why do you want to not believe what it says. Its clear……….
Firstborn is Firstborn. Unless you don't know what Firstborn means, look it up in your Dictionary. And I don't believe in the trinity. False understanding you better look in the mirror.

Yes, indeed it takes God's Holy Spirit to understand the things of God. I like t8 saying that Jesus was before Abraham was. He was the Spokesperson the Word of God who became flesh. No intellect or plan can do that.
Even by Jesus own words did He say that He had a glory with His Father and wanted it back. Tell me what did He become after He was on Earth? He was a Spirit being, now and then.
Unless you don't believe that Christ is sitting next to our Heavenly Father as a Spirit being…………

[banana]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 12 2009,20:32)

Irene wrote: Quote No body has seen the Father God or heard His voice. Here is a puzzle to think and consult God about. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22(NIV) reads: Quote Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'    “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'      ” 'By what means?' the LORD asked. ” 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.      ” 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' “So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”   If nobody has seen the Father or heard his voice then is Micaiah  the prophet lying?

And you want to call Jesus a liar? It is He that said this in
John 5:37 “And the Father Himself who has send Me has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.”
That also shows that Jesus was send by God from where God was. And He is in Heaven. Notice in Micah that the LORD God is sitting on His Throne. Not here on earth. So only those that are in Heaven can hear Him. No Human being can. We are talking about Humans and not Saints etc.

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……….the term firstborn, is a matter of interpretation, if you are predisposed to believe it literial means ( the first creature ever made) then your logic is right, But the term first (born) implies a berth process, While what you are implying is first creation process. The term firstborn implies status or position in the resurrection of Man. All this has been explained many times here to you Irene, it's your choice to believe it or not. IMO

peace and love to you and Georg……………………gene

[banana]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 13 2009,11:50)

Irene……….the term firstborn, is a matter of interpretation, if you are predisposed to believe it literal means ( the first creature ever made) then your logic is right,  But the term first (born) implies a berth process, While what you are implying is first creation process. The term firstborn implies status or position in the resurrection of Man. All this has been explained many times here to you Irene, it's your choice to believe it or not. IMO peace and love to you and Georg……………………gene

Gene What you are doing again is interpreting the Scriptures the way you want to.  Firstborn of all, creation means just that.  And if John 17:5 would not say what it did, maybe you could say that firstborn of the death.  But that is just it.  Not only was He the firstborn of all creation, He was also the firstborn of the death.  What is the firstborn of the death?  it is that Jesus was born again and did not stay dead.  Firstborn of the death, so that in all He may have pre eminence.  
You just don't want to learn do you?  I was just like you so long ago.  But thanks to God He did not leave me in that state of mind.  AND NOBODY EVER EXPLAINED ANYTHING TO ME, FOR THAT MATTER.  but MAYBE YOU SHOULD FOR ONCE LISTEN TO WHAT IT REALLY SAYS AND DO NOT INTEROET THE SCRIPTURES TO YOUR LIKING.
One more thing.  look what Jesus said in
John 5:37 And the Father that send me…….. where did God send Jesus from?
Irene

[kerwin]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 13 2009,06:32)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 12 2009,20:32) Irene wrote: Quote No body has seen the Father God or heard His voice. Here is a puzzle to think and consult God about. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22(NIV) reads: Quote Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'    “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'      ” 'By what means?' the LORD asked. ” 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.      ” 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' “So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”   If nobody has seen the Father or heard his voice then is Micaiah  the prophet lying? And you want to call Jesus a liar?  It is He that said this in John 5:37 “And the Father Himself who has send Me has testified of Me.  You have neither heard His voice  at any time, nor seen His form.” That also shows that Jesus was send by God from where God was.  And He is in Heaven.  Notice in Micah that the LORD God is sitting on His Throne.  Not here on earth.  So only those that are in Heaven can hear Him.  No Human being can. We are talking about Humans and not Saints etc.

You take offense where none is meant.   I stated that what I was proposing was a puzzle.   I just pointed out if you take what Jesus stated in the worldly way it contradicts what the prophet Micaiah stated.  The question then becomes “in what way has Jesus seen and heard God that no one else, such as Micah, has seen or heard him?”.  It is answering questions like that that aid us in learning the good news of Jesus the Anointed One.

It is possible that John was explicitly speaking of human beings though he did not mention that.   That does not explain that Micaiah, a human being, claims to have both seen and heard God.

I believe the passage you mention comes John 1.  I am not sure if Jesus is credited with stating it since my memory is faulty.

[banana]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 14 2009,03:56)

Quote (banana @ Dec. 13 2009,06:32) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 12 2009,20:32) Irene wrote: Quote No body has seen the Father God or heard His voice. Here is a puzzle to think and consult God about. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22(NIV) reads: Quote Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'    “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'      ” 'By what means?' the LORD asked. ” 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.      ” 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' “So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”   If nobody has seen the Father or heard his voice then is Micaiah  the prophet lying? And you want to call Jesus a liar?  It is He that said this in John 5:37 “And the Father Himself who has send Me has testified of Me.  You have neither heard His voice  at any time, nor seen His form.” That also shows that Jesus was send by God from where God was.  And He is in Heaven.  Notice in Micah that the LORD God is sitting on His Throne.  Not here on earth.  So only those that are in Heaven can hear Him.  No Human being can. We are talking about Humans and not Saints etc. You take offense where none is meant.   I stated that what I was proposing was a puzzle.   I just pointed out if you take what Jesus stated in the worldly way it contradicts what the prophet Micaiah stated.  The question then becomes “in what way has Jesus seen and heard God that no one else, such as Micah, has seen or heard him?”.  It is answering questions like that that aid us in learning the good news of Jesus the Anointed One. It is possible that John was explicitly speaking of human beings though he did not mention that.   That does not explain that Micaiah, a human being, claims to have both seen and heard God. I believe the passage you mention comes John 1.  I am not sure if Jesus is credited with stating it since my memory is faulty.

That makes two of us, my memory is like an old person that I am. however Georg's is good and I ask him a lot.
But you know what one of them is a liar. I rather believe what Jesus said. Also maybe it was the translators that made mistakes. We don't really know for certain.
But as far as the preexisting of Jesus goes, we have more then one Scripture, and that I do believe.
Why John in 1:1 is referring to the Word being Jesus, is strange to say the least. Since He is the Brother of Jesus why did He not call Him by His name.
My Point however is that it goes along with Col 1:1-17 and Rev. 3:14 and John 5:37 and there are other Scriptures too that talk about Jesus being send by His Father.
I always say time will tell.
Peace and Love Irene

[peace2all]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 14 2009,05:51)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 14 2009,03:56) Quote (banana @ Dec. 13 2009,06:32) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 12 2009,20:32) Irene wrote: Quote No body has seen the Father God or heard His voice. Here is a puzzle to think and consult God about. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22(NIV) reads: Quote Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'    “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'      ” 'By what means?' the LORD asked. ” 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.      ” 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' “So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”   If nobody has seen the Father or heard his voice then is Micaiah  the prophet lying? And you want to call Jesus a liar?  It is He that said this in John 5:37 “And the Father Himself who has send Me has testified of Me.  You have neither heard His voice  at any time, nor seen His form.” That also shows that Jesus was send by God from where God was.  And He is in Heaven.  Notice in Micah that the LORD God is sitting on His Throne.  Not here on earth.  So only those that are in Heaven can hear Him.  No Human being can. We are talking about Humans and not Saints etc. You take offense where none is meant.   I stated that what I was proposing was a puzzle.   I just pointed out if you take what Jesus stated in the worldly way it contradicts what the prophet Micaiah stated.  The question then becomes “in what way has Jesus seen and heard God that no one else, such as Micah, has seen or heard him?”.  It is answering questions like that that aid us in learning the good news of Jesus the Anointed One. It is possible that John was explicitly speaking of human beings though he did not mention that.   That does not explain that Micaiah, a human being, claims to have both seen and heard God. I believe the passage you mention comes John 1.  I am not sure if Jesus is credited with stating it since my memory is faulty. That makes two of us, my memory is like an old person that I am.  however Georg's is good and I ask him a lot. But you know what one of them is a liar.  I rather believe what Jesus said.  Also maybe it was the translators that made mistakes.  We don't really know for certain.   But as far as the preexisting of Jesus goes, we have more then one Scripture, and that I do believe. Why John in 1:1 is referring to the Word being Jesus, is strange to say the least.  Since He is the Brother of Jesus why did He not call Him by His name. My Point however is that it goes along with Col 1:1-17 and Rev. 3:14 and John 5:37 and there are other Scriptures too that talk about Jesus being send by His Father. I always say time will tell. Peace and Love Irene

well jesus did spread god's word. he spoke what his fathers will is. they are in union with each other and one who knows jesus knows his father.

people just need to accept. when finding and answer to a question yuo will fing mltiple verses that all support the message as a specific meaning,

it will not come in the form of a verse that is mysterious and confusing where your left ot fill in the blanks with your own interpretation.

all the important messages in there are found just that way, however man continues to interpret and take out of context a verse to support a bielief handed down by tradition.

[peace2all]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 13 2009,11:50)

Irene……….the term firstborn, is a matter of interpretation, if you are predisposed to believe it literial means ( the first creature ever made) then your logic is right,  But the term first (born) implies a berth process, While what you are implying is first creation process. The term firstborn implies status or position in the resurrection of Man. All this has been explained many times here to you Irene, it's your choice to believe it or not. IMO peace and love to you and Georg……………………gene

its a matter of man's interpretation.

the bible holds true to its meaning in many scriptures to tell you this but yuo ignore.

you nly believe your own interpretation. why yuo want to aor need to do so in not clear or valid.

someone told me that firstborn in hebrew meant supreme nas not “firstbon” that makes no sense whatsoever and it doesn't fit in with the other scripturesthat validate the meaning god used which is that firstborn means firstborn.

that is not so. looked it up and it does not, so you that person again is making up another thing to validatye their made up idea to beging with.

[peace2all]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 14 2009,03:56)

Quote (banana @ Dec. 13 2009,06:32) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 12 2009,20:32) Irene wrote: Quote No body has seen the Father God or heard His voice. Here is a puzzle to think and consult God about. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22(NIV) reads: Quote Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'    “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'      ” 'By what means?' the LORD asked. ” 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.      ” 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' “So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”   If nobody has seen the Father or heard his voice then is Micaiah  the prophet lying? And you want to call Jesus a liar?  It is He that said this in John 5:37 “And the Father Himself who has send Me has testified of Me.  You have neither heard His voice  at any time, nor seen His form.” That also shows that Jesus was send by God from where God was.  And He is in Heaven.  Notice in Micah that the LORD God is sitting on His Throne.  Not here on earth.  So only those that are in Heaven can hear Him.  No Human being can. We are talking about Humans and not Saints etc. You take offense where none is meant.   I stated that what I was proposing was a puzzle.   I just pointed out if you take what Jesus stated in the worldly way it contradicts what the prophet Micaiah stated.  The question then becomes “in what way has Jesus seen and heard God that no one else, such as Micah, has seen or heard him?”.  It is answering questions like that that aid us in learning the good news of Jesus the Anointed One. It is possible that John was explicitly speaking of human beings though he did not mention that.   That does not explain that Micaiah, a human being, claims to have both seen and heard God. I believe the passage you mention comes John 1.  I am not sure if Jesus is credited with stating it since my memory is faulty.

how can one not take offense when you are going out of your way to say one is wrong or incorrect and saying that those people are using ones own ideas.

one uses only scriptures to show the valid constant message of it. when one imposses their own idea instead of god's its offensive to those trying to happily teach and preach the news as jesus instructed and is offensive to god and his son also.

what do you gain by playing puzzle games or defending false teachings?

nothing!

who cares what religion one is or sect they are from, just to take off the pressure and stigma to want to argue.

if its shown by scripture and it gives a true and better understanding, then accept it and embrass it.

let it build inside you the spirtual seed that one needs,have it grow into spiritual works to god, what he wants from us.

whenver you talk about god you are preaching & teaching.

do it right.

[Ed J]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 14 2009,05:51)

But you know what one of them is a liar.  I rather believe what Jesus said.  Also maybe it was the translators that made mistakes.  We don't really know for certain.   Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,

Give me a break, if an angel is speaking in God's behalf, it's still (in essence) the voice of God (YHVH Voice=117); The Prophet Micah is NOT a liar!

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Irene wrote:

Quote

But you know what one of them is a liar.

Since Micaiah is a true prophet of God and Jesus is God's Son it is my opinion that they were speaking in different contexts.  Micaiah was speaking of seeing with the eyes and knowing with the mind while Jesus was speaking of seeing with the heart and knowing with the spirit.  Jesus was the first one to have the Holy Spirit and it is only through belief in him and so obeying all his teachers that each of us can also obtain it.   I do not know how angels relate to the statement but as you proposed he may have only been speaking of human beings.

I do not believe that puzzle which God put there for us to solve has anything to do with whether or not Jesus is preexistent.

[banana]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 14 2009,20:42)

Irene wrote: Quote But you know what one of them is a liar. Since Micaiah is a true prophet of God and Jesus is God's Son it is my opinion that they were speaking in different contexts.  Micaiah was speaking of seeing with the eyes and knowing with the mind while Jesus was speaking of seeing with the heart and knowing with the spirit.  Jesus was the first one to have the Holy Spirit and it is only through belief in him and so obeying all his teachers that each of us can also obtain it.   I do not know how angels relate to the statement but as you proposed he may have only been speaking of human beings. I do not believe that puzzle which God put there for us to solve has anythi8ng to do with whether or not Jesus is preexistent.

Whether it does or not, He still had a glory with the Father before the world was. Was that glory a Spirit being, I believe so. What other glory could He have had? Not like I said before goes along with the other Scriptures that talk about that He was the firstborn of all creation. And that He was send by the Father to do His Fathers will.
Irene

[kerwin]

Irene wrote:

Quote

Whether it does or not, He still had a glory with the Father before the world was.  Was that glory  a Spirit being, I believe so.  What other glory could He have had?  Not like I said before goes along with the other Scriptures that talk about that He was the firstborn of all creation.  And that He was send by the Father to do His Fathers will.

That too is a mystery, or what I call a puzzle, that God placed in scripture for his people to solve.  I do know that Jesus coming and the salvation of the world was planned before the creation of the world.  In this way God prepared glory for Jesus whose existence he was planned of before forming him in Mary’s womb.  I believe Jesus received that glory when he was made King of everything in heaven and on earth.

[banana]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 15 2009,03:21)

Irene wrote: Quote Whether it does or not, He still had a glory with the Father before the world was.  Was that glory  a Spirit being, I believe so.  What other glory could He have had?  Not like I said before goes along with the other Scriptures that talk about that He was the firstborn of all creation.  And that He was send by the Father to do His Fathers will. That too is a mystery, or what I call a puzzle, that God placed in scripture for his people to solve.  I do know that Jesus coming and the salvation of the world was planned before the creation of the world.  In this way God prepared glory for Jesus whose existence he was planned of before forming him in Mary’s womb.  I believe Jesus received that glory when he was made King of everything in heaven and on earth.

kerwin And He went back with that glory? That does not fit. He had the glory already before the world was, that is what it says.
John 17:5 “And now O Father, glorify Me together WITH YOURSELF WITH THE GLORY I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
That to me is pretty clear. So kerwin why can't you understand that?
Irene

[kerwin]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 15 2009,00:25)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 15 2009,03:21) Irene wrote: Quote Whether it does or not, He still had a glory with the Father before the world was.  Was that glory  a Spirit being, I believe so.  What other glory could He have had?  Not like I said before goes along with the other Scriptures that talk about that He was the firstborn of all creation.  And that He was send by the Father to do His Fathers will. That too is a mystery, or what I call a puzzle, that God placed in scripture for his people to solve.  I do know that Jesus coming and the salvation of the world was planned before the creation of the world.  In this way God prepared glory for Jesus whose existence he was planned of before forming him in Mary’s womb.  I believe Jesus received that glory when he was made King of everything in heaven and on earth. kerwin   And He went back with that glory?  That does not fit.  He had the glory already before the world was, that is what it says. John 17:5 “And now O Father, glorify Me together WITH YOURSELF WITH THE GLORY I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. That to me is pretty clear.  So kerwin why can't you understand that?   Irene

You are not given what you already have but prophecy is fulfilled.

What glory do you thing Jesus is speaking of? I consider it him being made King of everything in heaven and on earth.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin……..you have it right that was the Glory Jesus was referring to.

peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

[KangarooJack]

Kerwin said:

Quote

You are not given what you already have but prophecy is fulfilled.

Kerwin,
I noticed how slick you are with your use of the present tense “have.” Of course you are not given what you already “have.” That's not what Jesus said is it? He asked to be glorified with the glory He once HAD (past tense).

It was a glory He once HAD. It was given back to Him. Please don't be slick like Gene and others here. I would not want to lose my respect for you.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Kerwin said to Irene:

Quote

What glory do you thing Jesus is speaking of?  I consider it him being made King of everything in heaven and on earth.

Gene blindly replied:

Quote

Kerwin……..you have it right that was the Glory Jesus was referring to.

Yeap! It was the glory Jesus once had as King of heaven and earth. He gave up that glory and became obedient unto death. So God gave Him that Kingship back.

thinker

[GeneBalthrop]

To All….> John 1:1…> in the beginning (OF ALL THINGS) was the WORD (expressed intellect) and the WORD (expressed intellect) was with GOD and WAS GOD.

His intellects is what enlightens (the minds) of all who come into the world. He is the source of (ALL) thought.

God's words are his personal expressions from HIS Personal MIND His word is who HE is , even as our Words are who we are. If John was intending to mean Jesus he would have simply wrote Jesus. No “Mystery trick in wording here” just believe it as it is written without changing anything. IMO

gene

[kerwin]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 16 2009,06:34)

Kerwin said: Quote You are not given what you already have but prophecy is fulfilled. Kerwin, I noticed how slick you are with your use of the present tense “have.” Of course you are not given what you already “have.” That's not what Jesus said is it? He asked to be glorified with the glory He once HAD (past tense). It was a glory He once HAD. It was given back to Him. Please don't be slick like Gene and others here. I would not want to lose my respect for you. thinker

So you are stating Jesus once had glory and then surrendered that glory and is now, as of when he asked, asking for it back.

[Author]

Posts