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Hi DT,
Oh yes, the curse!
“Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.”
Well it’s scripturally obvious to me anyway, that this curse was lifted,
We can read all about Jeconiah’s grandson Zerubbabel in a number of OT books and other offspring of his are also spoken of (so he wasn’t rendered childless after all and there are even Babylonian tablets that list his sons).
Zerubbabel was set free from Babylon where he returns and rules as a governor over Judah (so his offspring did have a ruling position in Judah after all).
Additionally, God promised him, “You will succeed, not by military might or by your own strength, but by my Spirit. 7 Obstacles as great as mountains will disappear before you. You will rebuild the Temple, and as you put the last stone in place, the people will shout, ‘Beautiful, beautiful!’” (so Jeconiah did have offspring that prospered after all).
Additionally, God had said to Jeconiah, “”As surely as I live,” declares the LORD, “even if you, Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, were a signet ring on my right hand, I would still pull you off”” but later to his grandson Zerubbabel God said, “I will make you like my signet ring, for I have chosen you” (doesn’t get more prosperous then that)!
Further, though scripture says that Jeconiah would be taken captive and the curse says he would not prosper in his lifetime, he was later set free by Evil-merodach king of Babylon and this king set Jeconiah’s throne above the throne of the other kings and he ate with the king at his table for the rest of his life. I don’t know about you DT but to me, him going from being a captive to later sitting at the kings table for the rest of his life while being honored above all the other kings sounds like prospering (advancing, making progress) to me!
Interesting enough, there are both Jews and Christians who also speak to the curse having been lifted. Jewish Literature speaks to the curse indeed having been lifted and even The Jewish Encyclopedia provides us with, “he repented of his sins which he had committed as king and he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king; he even became the ancestor of the Messiah.”
Hi DT,
Yes, I have read Isaiah 7 many times in it’s entirety.
YOU: You go on to cite Isaiah 7 as being proof of the coming messiah.
ME: I believe God planned dual fulfillments where passages in certain books are revealed by other biblical writers to also pertain to the promised Messiah. Matthew had the understanding that indeed Isaiah 7 was speaking about the promised Messiah, a sign for the house of David concerning a rightful king. Yes, I believe what Matthew said and as far as “believing what I was told”, I have no idea what you are talking about. I haven’t attended church or followed any pastor since I was 18, so it’s been 30 years. I read and decide what scripture says for myself. I have gone through every Christian faith though and studied their doctrines to see how it lines up with the sum of all scripture.
After Jesus rose from the dead, ” beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself” (Luke 24:27. So it seems that it was not readily known by folks all the scriptures that in fact did pertain to the Messiah. I don’t have a problem with this, God reveals things according to His own plan and purpose and Matthew as well as others were given revelation to share. Future representation/fulfillment to events from the past that are later revealed as such that then hold a greater significance to God’s plan and purpose is AWESOME, God is CLEVER and God is GREAT!!
Jodi said…….>”After Jesus rose from the dead, ” beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself” (Luke 24:27. So it seems that it was not readily known by folks all the scriptures that in fact did pertain to the Messiah. I don’t have a problem with this, God reveals things according to His own plan and purpose and Matthew as well as others were given revelation to share. Future representation/fulfillment to events from the past that are later revealed as such that then hold a greater significance to God’s plan and purpose is AWESOME, God is CLEVER and God is GREAT!!”
AMEN TO THAT , Jodi
peace and love to you and your Jodi………..gene
Thank you Gene!
DT,
Let me clarify my position regarding the conception of Jesus.
Matthew tells us that Jesus is a biological son of Abraham and David through Joseph, we know this because Matthew specifically uses the words GENESIS (a book of one’s LINEAGE, ORIGIN) and the word GENEA (the successive members of a GENEALOGY).
Mary, a young woman of marriageable age, was betrothed to Joseph and by Mary’s own words she had never been with a man. If you are a young woman of marriageable age from any tribe of Israel and you have sex before marriage you are to be taken in front of your fathers house and are to be stoned to death. An “almah” is to be a virgin period, for if you are a young woman and you are not a virgin, you are as good as dead and certainly not marriageable!
Today, with man’s technology, virgins can become pregnant with the seed of a man of their choosing through in- vitro fertilization, but in Mary’s time the only way she could possibly conceive a biological son of Joseph as a virgin, is through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, which is exactly what scripture tells us. Similar to that which man can do now, is something most certainly God’s Spirit is able to accomplish, He did it in-vivo. DT, is a son born of artificial insemination biologically the son of the seed planted into the woman’s egg or is the son considered a son of the mechanism that planted the seed?
You: Read Matthew 1 carefully! He is specifically stating that he is giving us the genetic lineage of Jesus for the purpose to show how he is biologically a son of Abraham and David.
Me: Except Matthew states “18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.” Luke states, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.” The “holy spirit” is the one who impregnated Mary; could you please explain how exactly the “spirit” is “genetically” connected to David and Solomon. To be “genetically” connected to someone, one must be a descendant of them and while we can claim Joseph is “biologically” connected to Solomon; one cannot say the Jesus is because it was the spirit who fathered him. How does one ignore this!?!? It’s like the ‘Dance of the Cucumber’ from Veggie Tales…Dance, Dance, yah!
You then pull back in christianities false interpretation of Isa 7:14 claiming it’s a “prophecy” of the coming messiah, when the prophecy is explicitly directed at King Ahaz. I even gave you the Hebrew to put into a translator and the translation says this maiden IS pregnant; Isaiah is speaking of a young woman standing there who is pregnant and somehow you get the Jesus out of this!?!?!? To get the Jesus you have to ignore what is actually happening in this chapter; which christianity does to make the Jesus work. In nothing you wrote did you substantiate your belief as being supported by what God spoke thru HIS prophets. All you have given is unprovable religious dogma.
You then continue on with I Chr 17:11-13 but ignore I Chr 28:5-6 when David explicitly states who the “son” is and who will be a father to him. Face it, what you believe is a lie!
By the way, I have NEVER said the Jesus was a “godman”; what I have stated was the Jesus is a “demigod” since his “conception” was of God and a mortal woman; eerily similar to what the Roman and Greek gods did with mortal women, but that’s considered ridiculous and false.
You say in post #946575 that you “believe” God planned dual fulfillment’s; BUT, when did God say any prophecy had a “dual purpose”? I’ve never read that anywhere in the Tanakh; sounds like it was created by man to justify their religion.
Please quote the passage where the curse from Jeremiah was lifted from Jeconiah. To use Zerubbabel as your “proof” the curse was lifted is utterly false because he never served as KING, he was appointed governor and thus was under the ruling king. God never said Jeconiah’s descendants would never succeed for HIS purpose; HE said they would never be king. How do I know this, because that’s what HE said thru Jeremiah “Thus says Yahweh: “Record this man as childless, a man who will not succeed in his days, for no man from his offspring will succeed him, sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.” I repeat, in none of this did God ever say Jeconiah’s descendants would never succeed in serving God’s purpose. How don’t we understand this?!? Beginning to question whether or not you or anyone have actually studied any of this because what your saying shows you haven’t when you make a statement like “Jeconiah did have offspring that prospered after all” or “doesn’t get more prosperous then that.” The punishment was none of Jeconiah’s descendants would ever sit on David’s throne and a huge problem is created by saying the Jesus is a descendant of Jechoniah and sits on the throne of David.
You: Interesting enough, there are both Jews and Christians who also speak to the curse having been lifted. Jewish Literature speaks to the curse indeed having been lifted and even The Jewish Encyclopedia provides us with, “he repented of his sins which he had committed as king and he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king; he even became the ancestor of the Messiah.”
Me: Where does God say this? Again, please cite the passage. I’m not interested in man’s thoughts, interpretations, or musings; what did God say. When and where did God say the “curse” was lifted?
In your post #946585 you make an unprovable claim the spirit used “in vivo” fertilization to impregnate Mary. Is there any evidence, other than speculation, to support what you said?
You also mentioned “‘almah’ is to be a virgin period”, I think you need to go back and research that again because you appear to have missed something. Please explain the difference between “almah” and “betulah.”
DT,
You: The “holy spirit” is the one who impregnated Mary; could you please explain how exactly the “spirit” is “genetically” connected to David and Solomon. To be “genetically” connected to someone, one must be a descendant of them and while we can claim Joseph is “biologically” connected to Solomon; one cannot say the Jesus is because it was the spirit who fathered him. How does one ignore this!?!?
ME: You still do not understand. It is NOT the Spirit that Fathered Jesus, it is the Spirit by it’s power that impregnated Mary with a biological son of Joseph. Matthew clearly states through the specific words that he uses that he is giving us the genetic line that makes Jesus a bio son of Abraham and David where that line Matthew gives goes directly to… JOSEPH, which directly makes Jesus thus a bio son of Joseph.
I would say that no one would doubt God’s Spirit is absolutely capable of causing a betrothed woman to become pregnant with her husband’s seed before they had came together. Right? Or are you going to tell me God’s Spirit doesn’t have that power? Do you also want to tell me that what Matthew actually meant was adoption, he just misspoke?
DT,
I know you don’t believe in a godman, that is obvious you’ve made that very clear, but you seem to believe that the NT teaches in one and you debate with people on here that assert such to indeed be true. I am here to prove it doesn’t. Thought you’d have that level of insight.
Hi DT,
God says the curse is lifted by the written text that clearly spells out for you that it was.
Was he recorded as childless? uh no very much the opposite.
Did his offspring not prosper? uh no very much the opposite, his own grandson became a governor over Judah and God said unto him, ” “I will make you like my signet ring, for I have chosen you”.
But you want to say that the curse remained in effect when scripture gives you the opposite in even more examples than above, to which I already provided to you.
DT, you deny scripture and present a God who won’t provide mercy unto a given curse, that’s just awful.
Look up Exodus 13: 14.
You: It is NOT the Spirit that Fathered Jesus, it is the Spirit by it’s power that impregnated Mary with a biological son of Joseph.
Me: Are you saying the spirit took sperm from Joseph and planted it into Mary thru artificial insemination? Can you back that up with evidence? It sounds more like speculation and justification than a truth; in all my years in the church I have never heard this scenario.
Also, why did Luke say the Jesus was the “supposed son” of Joseph; if the spirit “gave” Mary a biological son of Joseph, wouldn’t he be THE son of Joseph and not a supposed son? Hmmm!
You still haven’t explained how Isa 7:14 is a “dual prophecy”; to just say it is, isn’t good enough, I want scriptural evidence. Why are there no other passage in the Tanakh that state the Messiah was to be “immaculately conceived” and born of a “virgin”?
You: I would say that no one would doubt God’s Spirit is absolutely capable of causing a betrothed woman to become pregnant with her husband’s seed before they had came together.
Me: I have never denied the power of God; HE opened wombs allowing women to become pregnant. What I keep asking is where did God say he was going to cause a woman to become pregnant without the involvement of a man; back up what you claim with God’s words and not man’s speculations.
Never once have I said the Jesus was a godman nor have I ever claimed the NT teaches it; you seem to have me confused with Carmel. All I have ever said was the Jesus would be considered a demigod by definition since he was a product of God and a mortal woman and NOW you toss in a non-verifiable argument of artificial insemination…when does this madness end?!?!!?
I know I have posted the Jeremiah passage before, but let’s do it again and see if we can clear up some confusion.
30 Thus says Yahweh: “Record this man as childless, a man who will not succeed in his days, for no man from his offspring will succeed him, sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.”
No where in the passage does it state Jeconiah was childless; in fact he’s recorded as having children HOWEVER, he was to be remembered as though he never did – “record this man childless.” Jeconiah never prospered on the throne of David as he only served as king for three months and 10 days before he was imprisoned for most of his life – “a man that shall not succeed in his days.” All his sons were born in captivity – “no man from his offspring will succeed him” and NONE sat on David’s throne, NONE ruled as king in Judah, and the line thru Jeconiah ended with him once he was imprisoned and his kingship was stripped away. If one is no longer a king, how can a descendants claim a right to the throne to be king? They can’t! To say the Jesus is of this line and is now “king” is pure stupidity because there are none from Jeconiah’s line who would ever become king and sit on David’s throne as the line ended with Jeconiah as God said. How do you not see this?!?!?
Don’t know if you caught it or not, but nowhere in the passage did it say anything about God not using Jechoniah descendants for HIS purpose. This passage has to do with Jechoniah’s descendants no longer sitting on David’s throne and ruling in Judah and that’s it.
When you stop at “prosper” in the KJV and apply it as though none of Jechoniah’s descendants will “prosper” in there lives, you falsely interpret what is being conveyed, miss the context of what was written, and end up with these false understandings.
Hi DT,
YOU: Are you saying the spirit took sperm from Joseph and planted it into Mary thru artificial insemination? Can you back that up with evidence? It sounds more like speculation and justification than a truth; in all my years in the church I have never heard this scenario.
ME: I can understand that this is something you’ve not heard of before.
What is the speculation?
Matthew gives us the genetic line to prove that Jesus is a bio son of Abraham and David and that line goes to Joseph who was betrothed to Mary. Before they came together she conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. According to God Himself, His own design of genetics and what is needed to conceive a human being, the Spirit thus had to have provided Mary’s haploid cell with a haploid cell of Joseph.
edit, taking out a question, which DT I see you did answer.
The Spirit did it, there’s no speculation in that.
We can certainly speculate how EXACTLY the Spirit performed it, however, what is also not speculative is that we know if Jesus is to be genetically the son of Abraham and David through Joseph as Matthew provides, the Spirit thus would have had to involve Joseph’s own genes, that’s a no brainer.
Hi DT,
30 Thus says Yahweh: “Record this man as childless, a man who will not succeed in his days, for no man from his offspring will succeed him, sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.”
YOU: No where in the passage does it state Jeconiah was childless; in fact he’s recorded as having children HOWEVER, he was to be remembered as though he never did – “record this man childless.”
ME: I never made the argument that the passage says he would be childless, my argument is that it says he was to be RECORDED childless but then he was indeed recorded as having children, curse lifted.
How do you think that “RECORD this man as childless” can legitimately equate to “he was to be REMEMBERED as though he never did”?
You’d think that if one is to be remembered as though they were childless, the first thing that you would do is to be sure NOT to record/write about his children.
Just absurd DT
Me: Are you saying the spirit took sperm from Joseph and planted it into Mary thru artificial insemination? Can you back that up with evidence? It sounds more like speculation and justification than a truth; in all my years in the church I have never heard this scenario.
You: I can understand that this is something you’ve not heard of before.
Me: You think!!!!
I can bank on the fact there are about 2 Billion other people who have never heard this either. What you have presented is a theory offering your rendition of the virgin birth story of the Jesus; but, to call it truth because it resonates to you is disingenuous. Remember, ALL theories remain theories until they are proven to be fact. Unless you can prove what you claim, it will be remain just a theory and can be added to all the other “explanations” to the virgin birth story. Please present every passage in the Tanakh that states the Messiah was to be born of a virgin the way the writer of Matthew claims…begin!
Concerning Jeconiah, the best you can come up with is “It was written he was to be childless; yet, they record he had children. Therefore the “curse” was lifted.” How is it you don’t understand this passage is about his heirs not succeeding in sitting on the throne of David and NOTHING to do with him having children or not. His kingship was stripped away so he would no longer be a king, was told he was going to die in a foreign land, and what were any of his children going to have a claim to or be inline for as prisoners?
If one is disposed of being king, what right will any of their descendants have to be king? If you would read any commentary on this passage it would confirm exactly what I am saying. Wake up!! The fact the writer of Matthew included Jeconiah in the lineage was a HUGE mistake; unless of course you identify as a “christian”, then it’s perfectly fine and don’t care what God said and can “interpret” it anyway you wish.
By the way, still waiting for the passage Jeconiah asked for forgiveness and God forgave him.
Also, still waiting for how the Jesus fulfilled what the Tanakh said the Messiah was to do when he arrives – post #946290 for your reference.
DT……Jesus said “not’ me,……“I am”, “the root and offspring of DAVID”, You, either believe him or not, I choose to believe him.
peace and love to you and yours DT………gene
@Gene,
You are free to believe whatever you want, makes no difference to me; but, can you prove the Jesus is the “root and offspring” of David and Solomon with the Tanakh? Can you prove the Jesus is the true Messiah (link 946290 when and how will the Jesus accomplish what is listed)?
Again, Luke traces the Jesus’ lineage thru David’s son Nathan and not Solomon as God promised David – dead end and a lie. Matthew has Jeconiah listed in his lineage account and he was a king that was to be recorded as childless – dead end and a lie to claim this is where the Jesus came from. If a king doesn’t have any heirs, their “dynasty” ends; explain how the Jesus suddenly becomes a king after hundreds of years of no heirs to David’s throne?
You believe in an idol, because you have placed someone or something (the cross) between you and God. It’s time to start verifying what you have been told is truth and stop relying on the thoughts of man and turn back to God.
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