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Gene said:
Quote Thinker you also said about Jesus that God created him lower then the angles but crowned him above all things, Gene,
What!! I NEVER said that God created Jesus. I NEVER said it man!! Did you have a six pack before you posted this?
Gene said:
Quote But if you go back and look brother you will find that Hebrews was quoting King David , when He said .”What is (MAN) that thou art mindful of Him, for thou hast created Him lower then the angles for the tasting of death, but hast crowned him above the angels and put all things under His (mans) feet. Gene,
The verse you cited from the Psalms is not present in Hebrews 1. Did you have two six packs before posting?thinker
thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote I admit that angels were originally created with wills. Without opening a discussion regarding “Free Will” and the contention that there is only one will, God's (these have all been aired ad infinitim previously) allow me to ask the following.
You admit angels were created with wills. Perhaps you would extend that fact to man also, perhaps not. When does God withdraw the will He created angels with?
It has been said God's will is strongest and cannot be overridden. Perhaps that is true, but where is the passage that states He withdraws the will one was created with?
David feared God might “take His Spirit from him (Ps.51:11)
and man has submitted his will to God (Mt. 12:50) but I do not find a passage that states a withdrawal of the will He gave. Thus, since you admit angels were created with wills and there is no biblical evidence that God withdraws their will,
Yes, angels have wills NOW,Quote I still fail to see how this is germane to Christology. If you feel the discussion does not relate to Christology, it need not continue.
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
thinker….Heb 2:6…> clarifies what i was saying..> But one in a certain place testifies (i believe that was King David), saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man (as Jesus said He was) that thou visitest him…7..> Thou madest him a little lower than the angles: thou crowned him with glory and honor, the works of they hands: (the same as Jesus is) ….8 Thou hast put (ALL) things under his (mans) feet. For in that he has put (ALL) in subjection under him (MAN), he left nothing that is not put under him (MAN). But (NOW) we see (NOT) YET ALL THINGS put under him (MAN)….9….> BUt we see Jesus, who was (MADE) lower than the angles (like us) for the suffering of death, (like us) crowned with glory and honor; (like Us) that he by the GRACE of GOD should taste death for every man.
I could go on to Show what GOD the FATHER has done but suffice this to be enough. It shows plainly Jesus was (MADE) lower then the angles just like us also. I may have misquoted you as saying God made Jesus, but these scripture do show He made Him lower then the angles and He did also Us Brother.
And i only drink rarely any more, maybe a glass or two of wine filled with ice or a cold beer, now and then and i like a dark ale with a pice of pizza.
love and peace to you brother, sorry if i offended you………………………….gene
Gene said:
Quote And i only drink rarely any more, maybe a glass or two of wine filled with ice or a cold beer, now and then and i like a dark ale with a pice of pizza. love and peace to you brother, sorry if i offended you.
Gene,
I was joking about the six pack thing. I hope you knew that. And you did not offend me.Gene said:
Quote I could go on to Show what GOD the FATHER has done but suffice this to be enough. It shows plainly Jesus was (MADE) lower then the angles just like us also. I may have misquoted you as saying God made Jesus, but these scripture do show He made Him lower then the angles and He did also Us Brother. Gene,
The Psalm does NOT say that the Son was created or made lower than “angels.” This is a translation problem. I will give you the literal reading from the Hebrew and then the link so you can read it for yourself. The Hebrew reads thus,Quote You are making Him lack [a] little from Elohim in glory and honor (Ps. 8:4-8) Do you see? The Psalm does not say that the Son was created or made lower than “angels.” It says that He was made to lack from “Elohim” in glory and honor.
The NASB says “God” in Psalm 8. And in Hebrews 2 the NASB says that it was only for a little while that the Son was made this way,
Quote You have made Him for a little while lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:7) In other words, the Son was temporarily made lower than God in glory and honor. The Son was made less than God in glory and honor for our salvation. It had nothing to do with the Son being created. Hebrews 1 says that the Father called the Son “GOD” and attributed creation to him. But Jesus anticipated the time when He would return to the glory He had with the Father before the world began
Quote And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was (John 17:5) The link for the Hebrew-English Interlinear is: http:www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
thinker
thinker……… 1 CO 15:27…> For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him…28,,< And when all things shall be subdued into him, then shall the (SON) also Himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that GOD may be ALL in ALL.
Now ask yourself why does it say Jesus must become subject to (GOD) HIMSELF in order the GOD may be ALL in ALL. If Jesus Himself is GOD why does He have to become subject to GOD. He would alresdy be GOD according to Trinitarian teachings so Why Should He become Subject to GOD then.
The truth is brother the TRINITY Doctrine makes no sense brother. IMO
love and peace to you and yours brother………………………….gene
Gene said:
Quote Now ask yourself why does it say Jesus must become subject to (GOD) HIMSELF in order the GOD may be ALL in ALL. If Jesus Himself is GOD why does He have to become subject to GOD. He would alresdy be GOD according to Trinitarian teachings so Why Should He become Subject to GOD then. Gene,
Who is “all in all” before Christ subjects Himself? Answer: It is Christ,Quote …but Christ IS all in all (Colossians 3:11) Until Christ subjects Himself He is “all in all”?
thinker
thinker……….The word Christ means the Christos or the anointing, and that anointing is the in all and through all , it is ONE GOD and He works in ALL and through ALL, by His anointing or (CHRISTOS) It was GOD (IN) Jesus via the (CHRISTOS) the was reconciling the world to himself. BUT that does not make Jesus (the CHRISTOS) that was in HIM. That the same with us also. It was the FATHER in the anointing or CHRISTOS in Jesus , who does the works, as Jesus plainly said. “The son of man can do nothing of Himself , but the Father in Him doth the words”. Jesus Know full well GOD the Father was in HIM, not that He was the Father, but the Father was (IN) Him, how? by the Anointing He recieved from the Father.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 27 2009,05:07) thinker……….The word Christ means the Christos or the anointing, and that anointing is the in all and through all , it is ONE GOD and He works in ALL and through ALL, by His anointing or (CHRISTOS) It was GOD (IN) Jesus via the (CHRISTOS) the was reconciling the world to himself. BUT that does not make Jesus (the CHRISTOS) that was in HIM. That the same with us also. It was the FATHER in the anointing or CHRISTOS in Jesus , who does the works, as Jesus plainly said. “The son of man can do nothing of Himself , but the Father in Him doth the words”. Jesus Know full well GOD the Father was in HIM, not that He was the Father, but the Father was (IN) Him, how? by the Anointing He recieved from the Father. peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Gene,
Your explanation above is nonsense! Paul said that “Christ forgave you” (vs. 13). Only God can forgive sins. Therefore, Christ is God. Then verse 17 says that Christ is “all in all.” And until He subjects Himself to the Father He (not the Father) is “all in all.”thinker
Hi tt,
Jn20
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23″If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Only God can forgive sins.
Perhaps you should consider these scriptures.
Genesis 50:17(NIV) reads
Quote 'This is what you are to say to Joseph: I ask you to forgive your brothers the sins and the wrongs they committed in treating you so badly.' Now please forgive the sins of the servants of the God of your father.” When their message came to him, Joseph wept.
and
Exodus 10:16-19(NIV) reads
Quote Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said, “I have sinned against the LORD your God and against you. Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the LORD your God to take this deadly plague away from me.” Moses then left Pharaoh and prayed to the LORD. And the LORD changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried them into the Red Sea. Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt.
I assure you that anyone can forgive sins that God gives the authority to forgive sins to.
Nick Hassan uses a very appropriate scripture to support my conclusion.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2009,06:28) Hi tt,
Jn20
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23″If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
NHWhat are you a Catholic Priest now?
Men forgiving other mens sins against God is a part of the Catholic priesthood.
Jesus is simply giving power to anounce the forgiveness of sins for those who have sinned against them.
Click here for more info about this scripture.
No man can forgive mens sin against God. If you believe this based on the scrripture you quote then you must also believe that if a believer does not forgive someone then God will not forgive them.
Ludicrous. For all have sinned and no man can pickup the stone.
When is the last time you saved someone by forgiving their sins? If you can forgive sins then why not forgive everyone and all will be saved because you have forgiven them?
You can't because forgiveness of sin against God is contengent upon repentance toward God and the Blood of the Lamb that cleanses them.
When is the last time someone repented toward you for a sin they committed against God? When is the last time you washed someone in the blood of the Lamb?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2009,10:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2009,06:28) Hi tt,
Jn20
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23″If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
NHWhat are you a Catholic Priest now?
Men forgiving other mens sins against God is a part of the Catholic priesthood.
Jesus is simply giving power to anounce the forgiveness of sins for those who have sinned against them.
Click here for more info about this scripture.
No man can forgive mens sin against God. If you believe this based on the scrripture you quote then you must also believe that if a believer does not forgive someone then God will not forgive them.
Ludicrous. For all have sinned and no man can pickup the stone.
When is the last time you saved someone by forgiving their sins? If you can forgive sins then why not forgive everyone and all will be saved because you have forgiven them?
You can't because forgiveness of sin against God is contengent upon repentance toward God and the Blood of the Lamb that cleanses them.
When is the last time someone repented toward you for a sin they committed against God? When is the last time you washed someone in the blood of the Lamb?
WJ
WJ,
Good post bro. But I would like to say that Jesus did confer upon the apostles the power to remit sins. That power died when the apostles died. Nick's problem is that he thinks that Jesus was speaking to everybody. At any rate, Nick's recent comments reflect one of two things,1. He is ignorant of the true gospel, or,
2. He knows the true gospel but just wants to have the last wordthinker
Hi tt,
You seem to take on yourself to limit the working of the given Spirit of God.
The same Spirit with the same powers is still given to those who ask.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 26 2009,15:02) If you believe this based on the scrripture you quote then you must also believe that if a believer does not forgive someone then God will not forgive them.
WJHow do you see these scriptures properly interpreted?
Mat 6:1415 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Seeking
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2009,10:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2009,06:28) Hi tt,
Jn20
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23″If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
NHWhat are you a Catholic Priest now?
Men forgiving other mens sins against God is a part of the Catholic priesthood.
Jesus is simply giving power to anounce the forgiveness of sins for those who have sinned against them.
Click here for more info about this scripture.
No man can forgive mens sin against God. If you believe this based on the scrripture you quote then you must also believe that if a believer does not forgive someone then God will not forgive them.
Ludicrous. For all have sinned and no man can pickup the stone.
When is the last time you saved someone by forgiving their sins? If you can forgive sins then why not forgive everyone and all will be saved because you have forgiven them?
You can't because forgiveness of sin against God is contengent upon repentance toward God and the Blood of the Lamb that cleanses them.
When is the last time someone repented toward you for a sin they committed against God? When is the last time you washed someone in the blood of the Lamb?
WJ
Hi WJ,
I just post a verse and on the basis of that verse you attack me?Hi:
Jesus in the following verses of scripture was speaking to the authority of the church:
Quote Jn20
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23″If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
And this is what he is talking about:
Quote Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heavenThe authority in the church can excommunicate someone if they fail to repent, and so this is what is meant by retaining their sins. Of course, at any time a person in this situation can be accepted back if they repent.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2009,14:15) Hi 94,
Can the body of Christ excommunicate or just some tinpot denomination?
Hi Nick:I said the authority in the church which are those whom Jesus has ordained an put in authority.
Love in Christ,
MartyI have read John 20:19-24 and I cannot see where anyone reaches the conclusion that Jesus was speaking just to those who lead the church since we are told the “disciples” were gathered together. It is true that the 12 Apostles are disciples but so are any other students of Jesus and in fact we know two of the Apostles were not there Judas because he committed suicide and had not been replaced and Thomas. If you read the particular scripture then you will see the power to either forgive or not to forgive is linked to the Holy Spirit and so I suspicion that it is only those who walk by the Spirit who have the authority to forgive sins as Jesus and Mosses did. This makes sense since it is God acting through Jesus and Jesus acting through you when you live by the Spirit.
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