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Hi Lu,
YOU: Hi Carmel,
You said: Once God pronounced His word, the Son left the Father, your term begat, and established Himself engrafted in the heart of the endless spirits emanated from God!
Where do you find that the Son “established Himself?”
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ,
who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,…..
John 10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
As you can read Jesus offered Himself in the process of redemption.
Thus once He committed Himself to do so, He established Himself as the redeemer, even before creation, simply AD INTRA, while the Father and the Son were together planning all things. The kingdom of the Son, from God’s perspective, is already accomplished, it is only being implemented. The fact that the Son, IN THE FORM OF GOD, was already in one glory with the Father as
JESUS CHRIST, precisely God’s embodiment, the fact also that Jesus emptied Himself and as a spirit was slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world Rev.13:8.
Reflect on these verses hereunder.
Proverbs 8:30 Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.
ME: before him: In front of him, as “THE WORD” in the heart of all creatures,no matter whom and what, between the Father and His creatures as a spirit/mediator, in order for God, the source, generally speaking to communicate. “THE WORD” is an infinitesimal spirit in whom God abides, and creates all, precisley from the heart, eternal life.
31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; my delights were with the sons of men.
ME; Precisely “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man to be, the life of all physical, John17:2, in their heart, as eternal life.
The above verses could simply be only a preview of God’s SPIRITUAL work.
Now going back to your post:
YOU: He begat His Son before He created anything.
Where in the bible one can read the above?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel,
LU: He begat His Son before He created anything.
CARMEL: Where in the bible one can read the above?
Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16for [y]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Carmel,
So you don’t think that it was the Father that established the plan for the Son to become the Messiah, the sacrificial lamb?
The Son did not establish the plan, He was willingly obedient though, to follow His Father’s plan.
The Father gives the vision, the Son carries out the vision, imo.
Hi Lu,
YOU: Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:
Me So for you the above asserts that God begat His Son before creation, Even if it doesn’t clerly says so!
Now when we read John1:1 it doesn’t say that
in the beginning was BEGOTTEN the Son, but
in the beginning was “THE WORD”
Which is totally different, despite we believe that “THE WORD” is the Son.
So to me there was no begotten at all!
Simply as “THE WORD” is just a SPIRIT, Jesus’, still in the process to become
SON OF MAN. Not yet Jesus the man. the fact that John said:
“THE WORD” was made flesh.
Not the Son was made flesh! A clear reference to Jesus’spirit.
We all know that the Son came in all things like his brethren which means that
Jesus as a human being had
a flesh body and a soul on His birth on earth! Well clear in
1John5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ:
not by water only, but by water and blood……
Notice the above made it clear, and mentioned both the water/SOUL, and the blood,/FLESH, and also Jesus Christ, not just Jesus, simply as on Jesus death both “THE WORD” Jesus’ flesh, the human nature, God all knowing, originally a spirit, embodied in Eve, slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world.Rev 13:8
and the Holy Ghost, attributed to the Son, Jesus’soul, the divine nature, originally in Adam the living soul, integrated and became
ONE SUBSTANCE. John13:31-32., John17:1 Both Son of God and Son of Man.
THE NEW ADAM in
JESUS CHRIST UNIQUE, THE HIGHEST, and MOST POWERFUL, FOR THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER!
GODMAN ON EARTH! a state the Father hasn’t got yet. The fact that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit from the Father.
Thus when Jesus was born, His soul and his flesh were not integrated as ONE, but separated like we all are separated, the fact that He had two natures, divine and human. and unless both our flesh and our souls are integrated as ONE, God knows when, we are not yet in the truth CHILDREN OF GOD yet, but simply, SONS OF GOD while we are on earth IN CHRIST, and SOULS still in the process to become so, and as humans of earth, we would be dust till the day of the Lord!Well clear in
1 John 3:5 Dearly beloved,
we are now the sons of God;
and it hath NOT YET APPEARED WHAT WE SHALL BE.
We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.
Now back to our point, regarding WHEN Jesus was begotten,
let’s read
Acts 13:33 This same God hath fulfilled to our children, raising up Jesus, as in the SECOND PSALM also is written: Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Psalm 2 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Both the above are a clear reference to Jesus resurrection! also mentioned by Jesus in
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead,…..
Now hereunder there’s a Psalm DRB version, which particularly mentions the words:
I BEGOT YOU!
Psalm 110:3 With thee is the principality in the day of thy strength: in the brightness of the saints: from the womb before the day star
I begot thee.
Though it is camouflaged, it is also related to Jesus resurrection!
Now hereunder are the most common references regarding when Jesus was begotten, but they are not clear enough when it actually occurred!
Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels hath he said at any time, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 5:5 So Christ also did not glorify himself, that he might be made a high priest: but he that said unto him: Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi LU,
YOU: So you don’t think that it was the Father that established the plan for the Son to become the Messiah, the sacrificial lamb?
ME: I said Jesus established HIMSELF AS THE REDEEMER ONCE HE ACCEPTED
GOD’ SPLAN
So I won’t say the Father, but GOD’s plan!
John10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father; and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and
to whom the Son will reveal him.
This means BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON, God’s process are always in harmony in
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit!
They represent the power, wisdom, and love respectively of God which are most vital in all God’s work.
YOU: The Son did not establish the plan, He was willingly obedient though, to follow His Father’s plan.
The Father gives the vision, the Son carries out the vision, imo.
But that still depends on the Son!
ME: Personally I don’t separate God’s work and put the Father as a superior figure!
the kingdom of God is of the Son not of the Father,
The fact that He is A SPIRIT and was not in the position to become human.
The kingdom at the very end would be manifested throughout in the
FLESH BODY OF THE SON JESUS
THE BRIDE
THE NEW JERUSALEM Again furnished by the Father! This is pure humility from God that the Father is ALWAYS manifested PHYSICALLY in the Son Jesus Christ,
John17:2As thou hast given him power over
ALL FLESH,
that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
THE ENTIRE CREATION ALL IN THE SON!
JESUS CHRIST
GOD’S EMBODIMENT BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
I look at it as it was His task as the spirit source, POWER, while to the Son was allocated WISDOM, and the Holy Spirit, LOVE.
When it comes to an introduction of a new task, the Holy Spirit MOVES in! Genesis 1:2,
Jesus’ birth, Pentecost, but that’s doesn’t mean that the Father and the Son are not in it.
NOT POSSIBLE!!!
John8:29 And he that sent me, is with me,
and he hath not left me alone:( Notice it is in the present perfect tense, initiated in the past)
for I do always the things that please him. (obvious THEY ARE TOGETHER AS ONE)
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel,
LU: Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:
Carmel: So for you the above asserts that God begat His Son before creation, Even if it doesn’t clearly says so!
4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, “first, pre-eminent” and 5088 /tíktō, “bring forth”)
Firstborn, first begotten, same thing. Therefore, Col 1:15 does refer to a begetting. In the context, the Firstborn created all things visible and invisible, therefore He was begotten before He created.
Carmel:
Carmel: Personally I don’t separate God’s work and put the Father as a superior figure!
1 Cor 11:3
But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
God is the head of Christ.
This disproves the Binity as it requires that it be written that the Father is the head of Christ.
How can God be his head if Christ is God. Is he his own head. Is he a servant of himself.
All these doctrines are stupid. They create oxymorons.
Keep it simple because the truth is simple and clear. For us there is one God the Father and his Son was appointed Lord.
Its amazing how the spirit of man wrestles against the Spirit of God. It shows how man is naturally at emnity with God.
Hi Lu,
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:
Carmel: So for you the above asserts that God begat His Son before creation, Even if it doesn’t clearly says so!
4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, “first, pre-eminent” and 5088 /tíktō, “bring forth”)
Firstborn, first begotten, same thing. Therefore, Col 1:15 does refer to a begetting. In the context, the Firstborn created all things visible and invisible, therefore He was begotten before He created.
ME: Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,
The above Lu, is a reference to Jesus’ when He possessed
THE HUMAN BODY AND BECAME VISIBLE, AS A MERE CHILD. Isaiah 9:6
Precisely the image of THE INVISIBLE God.
the firstborn of all creation: Other scriptures say: the firstborn of EVERY creature, which is more precise in relation to “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man, as a spirit, in the process of creation. Where He eternally is. John6:27
Now the above though is a reference to
JESUS AS A SPIRIT, not yet, as the image of the invisible God!
NOT YET BEGOTTEN!
the word BEGET means to procreate as the father.
God the Father, didn’t procreate His Son before creation!
John8:42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me.
For from God I proceeded, and came;
In the above Jesus made it clear that
HE PROCEEDED AND CAME FROM THE FATHER! Definitely when he was still
“THE WORD”a spirit,
NOT BEGOTTEN YET!
John8:43 Why do you not know my speech?
Because you cannot hear my word….
In the above, Jesus referred to HIS SPIRIT “THE WORD” WITHIN THEIR HEART. Who spoke God’s word for no use and rebelled.
Thus the Father begot His Son on this planet for the sake of truth as a human being like the rebellious angels/ the Pharisees, not as a spirit, with
A SOUL and A LFESH BODY! and as a spirit, He was neither A SOUL nor A FLESH BODY
The fact that John said the word/spirit, was made flesh!
Now I produced the scriptures regarding when Jesus was begotten;
when he became a man or a human being, and they mention somehow the word
“DAY”. Now, that clearly indicates that it occurred on this planet since, from Genesis 1:2 onward, this planet was subject to THE DAY and THE NIGHT.
Read this particular one:
Acts 13:33 This same God hath fulfilled to our children, raising up Jesus, as in the SECOND PSALM also is written: Thou art my Son,
this day have I begotten thee.
Now to me, the above is clear evidence that
JESUS ON A PARTICULAR DAY ON THIS PLANET WAS BEGOTTEN!
I’m afraid LU with every respect to you, my opinion is right!
I repeat:
YOU: He begat His Son before He created anything.
Me Where in the bible one can read the above?
Now I ask:
When was Jesus begotten in relation to the scripture above?
Have you got any suggestions?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi LU,
YOU: Carmel:
Carmel: Personally I don’t separate God’s work and put the Father as a superior figure!
1 Cor 11:3But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
LU, You produce a scripture that doesn’t confirm that
the Father is superior to the Son, SIMPLY:
As the title, FATHER is not in it!
the title GOD is equally related to the Father and the Son;
they are ONE!
INSEPARABLE!
The fact that Paul used that term in order to make it clear that
Christ is God. as much as
the body and the head are EQUALLY in
ONE BODY! INSEPARABLE
A body is only a body with its head, as without a mere TRUNK while
A head is only a head with its body, as without a mere SKULL!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Proclaimer,
PC: How can God be his head if Christ is God.
Two persons are identified as God, one is the Father of the other. Jesus says they are ONE.
In the Jones Family (for example), there are more than one person. The “Jones” that is the father, is head of the “Jones” that is his son. Understand?
Both are “Jones”, they are one family unity, and one is the head of the other. This is not hard, Proclaimer.
Carmel,
Carmel: the title GOD is equally related to the Father and the Son; they are ONE!
They are one WHAT?
Also, is the church “God” because the head of the church is “God?”
Two persons are identified as God, one is the Father of the other. Jesus says they are ONE.
In the Jones Family (for example), there are more than one person. The “Jones” that is the father, is head of the “Jones” that is his son. Understand?
This is basically the same teaching that is used to support the Trinity.
It is flawed because God is not a family. He is the Father of a family though. He is higher than you think LU. The most high in fact.
Scripture is clear. For us there is one God the Father. The Father is the one true God. This God is the God of Jesus and us. He is our Father. But not all are sons or children of God of course, but God is above all, even his own Son.
The Father is the one true God.
And God is not a surname as you are suggesting. Once you accept that, then you can basically add in anyone who has God’s name in their name. Like Yeshua or Isaiah for example.
For us, there is one God the Father.
Why the need to depart the clear teaching of scripture about who God is and who His Son is. It boggles the mind to see so many humans tampering with special truths.
Certainly the spirit of man is at emnity with the Spirit of God. This the the natural state of man. We need to be born from above and receive God’s Holy Spirit. Then we can receive the truth which sets us free.
If God was a family then just as Jesus is the Son of God, the Father would be the Father of God.
However, deep in the heart of every Believer is the truth that God is the Father and nobody else.
Proclaimer,
PC, you write this (without understanding or merely not wanting to understand, idk): If God was a family then just as Jesus is the Son of God, the Father would be the Father of God.
This is more accurate if the YHVH Unity were a family:
If the YHVH Unity were a family, then just as Jesus is the Son within the YHVH family, his Father is the Father within the YHVH family.
It doesn’t have to be so hard! R E S T in this.
Think…how many persons who are identified specifically as YHVH in the Bible, (not merely containing part of YHVH in their name) took/take part in:
- Creation before the ages
- Salvation leading to eternal life
Answer that correctly and you should be able to see more clearly.
If the YHVH Unity were a family, then just as Jesus is the Son within the YHVH family, his Father is the Father within the YHVH family.
I could make the same argument that they are aliens too.
But a wise person sticks to scripture and doesn’t let their imagination run wild with things they really know nothing about.
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