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Hi All,
Proclaimer seems to have no actual response to my response. He can’t bring himself to acknowledge that his statement I cannot possible say yes or no to because I don’t agree with the statement.
He gave a statement and then asked a question BASED on the statement, where he assumed I agreed with the statement, when I in fact don’t. If the question is based on the statement that I think is false, I can’t very well answer the question now can I? This should be simple reasoning.
We all know his point was most likely an attempt at proving foolish thinking on my part, and it just backfired.
He most likely assumed my answer would be yes, that I agree that the Messiah is Jesus and that he is not The Word of God.
His purpose it seems was to try and show how absurd it would be for me to say that the Messiah has the name “Jesus”, so the Messiah is therefore Jesus, and though the Messiah has the name “The Word of God”, he is not “The Word of God”.
If I said such that would be indeed very foolish, but I say no such thing. I had made it clear in my initial post that I do not believe that our Messiah was ever given the name “The Word of God”. I made it clear that my stance is that his own given name JESUS is unto us God’s word, for his name means, YHVH is salvation, which is the word of God!!!!
Likewise it is TRUE that as Jesus became the promised anointed one sent out into the world to deliver captives, he became the word of God made true in him, made true in a man of flesh.
Jodi
You and Gene despised the TRUE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD … THE ONE WHO COMES FROM HEAVEN SENT FROM THE FATHER
HOW SAD I FEEL TO READ YOUR HEADED POSTS
YOU TAKE FROM THE BIBLE ONLY
WHAT YOUR FALSE VISION TELLS YOU. IT IS NOT THE GOD YOU SAY YOU BELIEVE THAT GUIDES YOU …THE PRE-EXISTENCE AND THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST IS WELL PRESENT IN THE BIBLE …. BUT YOU IGNORE IT …. WITHOUT KNOWING WHY … YOU IGNORE IT …. YOU DISCARD CHRIST
WHICH IS STILL WORTHY TO WORSHIP.
DON’T MAKE ME LONG POSTS TO TELL ME THAT YOU DESPITE THE DIVINITY AND THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF CHRIST
THIS IS TOTALLY INUTILITY.REVELATION 19:13
And he was clothed with a garment soaked in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Jodi
Do you believe what revelation 19:13 says
YES OR NO
Berean……God’s word belongs to God “alone”, no matter who quotes it, the prophets or the flesh man Jesus. AND God said this , “you shall have “No” Other God besides me”. So the question is , do you truly believe what God the Father said?, or have you made anot her God besides him, have you turned the flesh man Jesus, into your GOD? Even though JESUS SAID, “that they might know “You” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD, and Jesus, the anointed one, who you have sent.
Jesus said….’“no man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. YOU cannot serve GOD and mammon.
Tell me Berean, do you hate God the Father And love The Man Jesus? , or do you love God the Father , like Jesus did?, and give him “ALL” the Glory like Jesus did? DO YOU ROB GOD, and pay Jesus, like nearly all Christanity does? 2ths2. Has Jesus become your “only” true God”.
Do you see the man Jesus, as our example of how to have a right relationship with his and our God, Or do you, worship Jesus as you God?
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’ and your ‘No’ be ‘No. ’Whatever is more than these is of the evil one.
In other words people, just be honest. No need to swear or give out essays. Keep it simple. Do not hide the Devil in the details. Be like a child for the kingdom belongs to them.
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Again, how do people run from the light? They hide. They cover themselves. They hide in caves. They surround their words with legal contracts where there are escape clauses.
And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Do not harden your heart.
Hi Jodi,
Are you asking a bunch of rhetorical questions that you are answering for yourself?
Or
Is there one specific question you want me to answer.
And then I will in turn ask you a question?I don’t generally respond to your long drawn out speeches,
because there are generally many point I disagree with.
I instead look to seek reconciliation on specifics.____________
God bless
Ed JBerean. ….Just as I expected, you fail to answer my post, as you and others do to Jodi and I all the time. Then you complement anyone who comes along and deverts away from what we have quoted from scriptures over and over, with carnel garbage . The question still is do you “truly believe what Jesus said, the words of his, which I quoted to you directly from his mouth? If you do, then you, and anyone else would have no problem understanding the truth, the truth, which you and others here keep arguing against.
Can’t you understand Jesus is “called” the word of God, not because he “IS” himself God’s word, but because he quotes God the Fathers words, to us, as God speaks to him, and tells him what to say, Just as God did the prophets. No difference at all.
God the FATHER through his “ANOINTING” Holy Spirit, which was in Jesus, “SPOKE” to us, through the mouth of his prophets, and Jesus was also a prophet, just as MOSES said,
Deu 18:15…..”“the LORD thy God will raise up unto you a “PROPHET” from the midst of you, “OF” or “FROM”, your brethern, “LIKE UNTO ME”; unto him you shall hearken.” THAT is another one, you people do not TRULY believe, or you would understand Jesus was not alive at the time that was said, and you would understand Jesus was to come into his “only” existence from his “brethern”, one of the tribes of Israel. YOU would also understand that Moses was a human being and someone who was to be “LIKE” him, had to be a human being also, or he would not be “LIKE” him, now would he?
Jesus was a “perfected” human being , perfected by the Holy Spirit of the Living God , that dwelt “in” him, exactly as we also can be perfected by that same Holy Spirit, that perfected the MAN Jesus?
Satan want everyone to make Jesus different then themselves, because he dosen’t want you to believe your potential is exactly the same as Jesus. He want you to “SEPERATE YOUSELF FROM HIM” and he does it by his ministers teaching that Jesus was and is not truly exactly like us, that he was and is different the the rest of humanity. He wants us to move Jesus away from our exact idenity with him, and he does it through those who teach his “doctrines of Seperation “. Which creates a different Jesus. That is exactly what Jesus himself said would happen, “many” would come in my name saying I am CHRIST, and decieve “MANY”. yes preaching Jesus but a different Jesus, that is the Jesus that has been preached in the apostate churches for the last 2000 years. It is not something that is going to happen it already has happened a long time ago, question is are you in the “many” decieved, or the “few” not decieved?
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Gene
I don’t beleive what you preache, because this is not biblical.
The true Jesus came down from HEAVEN LIKE JESUS HIMSELF SAID IT.
38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
[28] I came forth from the Father, and AM COME INTO THE WORLD : again, I LEAVE THE WORLD, AND GO TO THE FATHER.
[29] His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
[30] Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
[31] Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?[10] He that descended(the Son of God) is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) EPHESIANS 4:10
I’m new on this forum so, let me explain my reason for joining this forum. After being misled for 40 of my 60 years on a trinity, I began a search. I asked my pastor a simple question and he couldn’t answer it. The question was on the “rapture.” For the past 10 years I have been researching and reading everything I can get my hands on regarding the trinity and the rapture among other things. Here are a few things I have found.
- Concerning (John 1:1) ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
- With all the definitions and ways logos can be translated, how can we decide which meaning of logos to choose for any one verse? The Greek word logos (traditionally meaning word, thought, principle, or speech) has been used among both philosophers and theologians. How can it be determined what the logos in John 1:1 is? Any occurrence of logos has to be carefully studied in its context in order to get the proper meaning. The logos in John 1:1 cannot be Jesus. Please notice that “Jesus Christ” is not a lexical definition of logos. (lexical definition relating to the words or vocabulary of a language.) This verse does not say, “In the beginning was Jesus.” “The Word” is not synonymous with Jesus, or even “the Messiah.” The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God’s creative self-expression—His reason, purposes and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God’s self-expression, or communication, of Himself.This has come to pass through His creation (Rom. 1:19 and 20), and especially the heavens (Ps. 19). It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture, the written Word. Most notably and finally, it has come into being through His Son (Heb. 1:1 and 2).
It is important to note that it was “Christian teachers” who attached the idea of a “divine person” to the word logos. It is certainly true that when the word logos came to be understood as being Jesus Christ, the understanding of John 1:1 was altered substantially.
- It is important at this point to understand that the Greek language has a definite article (‘the’), but does not have an indefinite article (‘a’ or ‘an’). Greek does not operate in the same way as English does in regard to the use of the words ‘the’ and ‘a’.
Special emphasis is shown when the predicate comes first in the sentence. In other words, contrary to the thought that ‘since there is no definite article used here it could belittle the fact of the Word being God’, the fact that the word ‘God’ is used first in the sentence actually shows some emphasis that this Logos (Word) was in fact God in its nature. However, since it does not have the definite article, it does indicate that this Word was not the same ‘person’ as the Father God, but has the same ‘essence’ and ‘nature’.It is also necessary to see this statement in context of the rest of John’s writings. When comparing this with other statements about who the person and nature of Jesus Christ really is, it adds to what is already made clear by the Greek grammar. See for instance: John 8:56-59 (cf. Exo. 3:13-14); 10:28-33; 14:6-11; 1 John 5:20; (also John 8:23; 3:12-13; 5:17-18). These verses also indicate that, in John’s understanding and thus the Bible’s clear statements, Jesus Christ is the same essence and nature as God the Father, but distinct in their person-hood.
- Consider the following:
- GOD has NEVER died and cannot die
(Ps 148:6, Hab 1:12). - Jesus HAS died and WAS resurrected by his God
(Acts 2:32; 3:15). - GOD has NEVER changed (Mal 3:6)
- Jesus DID change FORM: from spirit
(John 3:31) - to human (Luke 2:7; John 1:14)
to spirit (1 Peter 3:18).
But has NEVER changed in how he loves and serves his God (John 5:30).
- GOD has NO other identity, He IS the Sovereign of the Universe (Isa 42:8 plus He states “I am God” another 163 times in the bible)
- Jesus did have other identities: before he came to earth, he is NOT mentioned “by the name Jesus”.
He WAS a “prince”
(Isaiah 9:6, 7),then a “crowned prince, named heir”, then a “King” (Re 11:15; 16:14-16)
of his God’s Kingdom BUT he always was the “Son OF God” (John 3:16).He has a beginning as first of all creation
(Col 1:15; Rev 3:14).
Later, he has a beginning as a human
(Matt 1:1, 18-23).
Later, he has a beginning as the first directly resurrected from death by his God
(Acts 3:15, 13:30, Ro 10:9).
Later he has a beginning as the first granted immortality by his God
(Ro 6:9, Rev 1:17,18).
God is God Almighty
Jesus Christ is the Beloved Son OF God Almighty. - GOD has no mother, no beginning
(Ps 90:2; Re 15:3) - Jesus has a human mother (Luke 2:7).
- God is all wise, but Jesus grew in wisdom.
(Luke 2:52)
“And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.”
(Hebrews 5:8 and 9)
(8) “Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered”
(9) “and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.” - God has limitless knowledge, but Jesus had limited knowledge.
(Mark 13:32)
“But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. - God is, and always has been, perfect, but Jesus needed to attain perfection through his suffering.
(Hebrews 2:10)
“In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.” - Jesus received Holy Spirit at his baptism. If Jesus were God and the Holy Spirit were God, then God would have been anointed with God by God. What purpose would this have served? We know why people are anointed, but what power could God give to Himself? Jesus was given the gift of Holy Spirit, the same gift he now gives to believers today.
(Mark 1:9-11)
(9) “At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.”
(10) “As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.”
(11) “And a voice came from heaven: “You are my son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” - Scripture says that God is spirit; yet even after his resurrection Jesus said of himself that he was not a spirit, but flesh and bone.
(John 4:23)
“God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”(Luke 24:39) (KJV)
“Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” - The Bible says that God is not a man, but Jesus is very plainly called a man many times in Scripture.
(Numbers 23:19)
“God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind….”(John 8:39 and 40)
(39) “…If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do the things Abraham did.”
(40) “As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God…” - (Matthew 12:30-32:) “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. ( If all three are one, why can blasphemy be forgiven of all EXCEPT the Holy Spirit?)
- God’s blessings to all and thank you for allowing me to join your forum.
- GOD has NEVER died and cannot die
nayasnana…….Welcome to the form, you have brought out many good points, and I agree with most of what you have said. You are apsolutely right John 1:1 was talking about God and not Jesus. Plus many of your other points are also right, let’s see what the others her have to say about what you have come to understand. To me, it is a sign, you have been given the spirit of the truth, because of the love for the truth that is “in” you.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Hi Nayasnana
Welcome to the forum
I mean this:
It is not because the dogma of the Trinity is not biblical that it excludes the fact that the Son of God is God (divine or of the same nature as the Father)
Now, from the incarnation the Son is God clothed with our humanity (John 1:14); Colossians 2: 9; Philippians 2: 6,7,8)God bless
flesh: Or “a human being.” The Greek word “sarx” is here used in the sense of a physical being, a living being with flesh. When Jesus was born as a human, he was no longer a spirit. He did not merely assume a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. (Ge 18:1-3; 19:1; Jos 5:13-15) Therefore, Jesus could rightly call himself “the Son of man.”—(Joh 1:51; 3:14;)
The Word became flesh:(He “became” not “incarnated.”) Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. Jesus explained the purpose of his becoming flesh when he said: “The bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” (Joh 6:51) In addition, only because Jesus was wholly human could he experience what humans of flesh and blood experience and thus become a sympathetic High Priest. (Heb 4:15) Jesus could not have been human and divine at the same time; the Scriptures say that he “was made a little lower than angels.” (Heb 2:9; Ps 8:4, 5;)
However, not all agreed that Jesus had come in the flesh. For example, the Gnostics, who believed that knowledge (Greek, gnoʹsis) could be gained in a mystical way, combined Greek philosophy and Oriental mysticism with apostate Christian teachings. They held that all physical matter is evil. For that reason, they taught that Jesus did not come in the flesh but only seemed to have a human body. An early form of Gnosticism was apparently prevalent at the end of the first century C.E., so John may be making a specific point when he writes that “the Word became flesh.” In his letters, John warns against the false teaching that Jesus did not come “in the flesh.”(1Jo 4:2, 3; 2Jo 7.)
At (Colossians 2:9) the apostle Paul says that in Christ “all the fullness of the divine quality [form of the·oʹtes] dwells bodily.” Here, again, some translations read “Godhead” or “deity,” which Trinitarians interpret to mean that God personally dwells in Christ. (KJ, NE, RS, NAB) However, Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon defines the·oʹtes in basically the same way it does thei·oʹtes, as meaning “divinity, divine nature.” (P. 792) The Syriac Peshitta and the Latin Vulgate render this word as “divinity.” Thus, here too, there is a solid basis for rendering the·oʹtes as referring to quality, not personality.
A consideration of the context of Colossians 2:9 clearly shows that having “divinity,” or “divine nature,” does not make Christ the same as God the Almighty. In the preceding chapter, Paul says: “God saw good for all fullness to dwell in him.” (Col 1:19) Thus, all fullness dwells in Christ because it “pleased the Father” (KJ, Dy), because it was “by God’s own choice.” (NE) So the fullness of “divinity” that dwells in Christ is his as a result of a decision made by the Father. Further showing that having such “fullness” does not make Christ the same person as Almighty God is the fact that Paul later speaks of Christ as being “seated at the right hand of God.”—Col 3:1.
Considering the immediate context of Colossians 2:9, it is noted that in verse 8, Christians are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human tradition. They are also told that “carefully concealed in [Christ] are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge,” and they are urged to “go on walking in union with him, rooted and being built up in him and being stabilized in the faith.” (Col 2:3, 6, 7) In addition, verses 13 to 15 explain that they are made alive through faith, being released from the Law covenant. Paul’s argument, therefore, is that Christians do not need the Law (which was removed by means of Christ) or human philosophy and tradition. They have all they need, a precious “fullness,” in Christ.—Col 2:10-12.
Finally, at 2 Peter 1:3, 4 the apostle shows that by virtue of “the precious and very grand promises” extended to faithful anointed Christians, they “may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Elsewhere in the Scriptures, Christians are referred to as ‘sharing’ with Christ in his sufferings, in a death like his, and in a resurrection like his to immortality as spirit creatures, becoming joint heirs with him in the heavenly Kingdom. (1Co 15:50-54; Php 3:10, 11; 1Pe 5:1; 2Pe 1:2-4; Re 20:6) Thus it is evident that the sharing of Christians in “divine nature” is a sharing with Christ in his glory. Be blessed
“Jesus could not have been human and divine at the same time; “
Jesus lived a man’s life even though he was God
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Please notice that “Jesus Christ” is not a lexical definition of logos. (lexical definition relating to the words or vocabulary of a language.) This verse does not say, “In the beginning was Jesus.” “The Word” is not synonymous with Jesus, or even “the Messiah.”
Yet the parallels are strikingly similar.
But what if the Logos was WITH God and that God created all things through him?
And if it then became flesh and that is Jesus Christ, then isn’t it coincidental that Jesus Christ also came in the flesh?
And again if all things were created through him and Jesus Christ is not the Word, then is it also coincidental that God created all things through both or perhaps God create two universes?
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Colossians 1:15-17
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through himRev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.And if his name is Jesus and so he is Jesus, then if his name is also The Word of God, then why is he NOT the Word of God?
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
And if Jesus Christ had zero history before coming in the flesh, then why is this in the Bible?
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
BTW, I agree with much of what you have written so far. Just these parts I want to challenge you with.
The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God’s creative self-expression—His reason, purposes and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God’s self-expression, or communication, of Himself.
The Bible Say THAT” the Word ”
Was God.
Can “God’s creative self-expression—His reason, purposes and plans,”
BE GOD ????
CAN “God’s creative self-expression—His reason, purposes and plans,”
Made all things. like John wrote:. ???
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Ephesians 3
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Jesus lived a man’s life even though he was God
If the Father is the only true God as scripture states, then your verse basically says:
Jesus lived a man’s life even though he was The Father
I believe and I think you do too that it means that he had the same nature and as we know, he emptied himself and became a man.
1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.1 Corinthians 8:5-6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Is this you too Berean?
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