JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Berean]

JESUS CHIEF OF ANGELS

Mathew 24

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he(JESUS) shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Jodi]

Hi LU,

Paul teaches that we are joint heirs of eternal life with Jesus TOGETHER AS HUMAN BEINGS.

Scripture tells you that Jesus IS a HUMAN BEING to this day. Scripture tells you that our Father’s will has not been completely fulfilled yet but that it will be fulfilled BY a HUMAN BEING, the son of Jesse, who does so because our Father’s Holy Spirit rests upon him, where YHWH directs all his ways.  

Scripture tells you that it is YHWH’s Spirit upon this son of Jesse, and that YHWH ALONE is God, that there is none besides Him. This son of Jesse was MADE by YHWH for to be a light.

YHWH ALONE forms the light you are told and Jesus is the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star.

John 12: 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

John 13: 31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

 God is glorified IN the SON OF MAN, 

why we read,

Mathew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

LU, when Jesus appeared to many after he was raised from the dead he didn’t teach that he pre-existed, he didn’t teach that he received his previous glory, he didn’t teach he was YHWH or that he was the Holy Spirit, he taught of himself directly according to OT prophecies, which were all about the seed of Abrahm, Jesse, and David and what YHWH had purposed in this Son of Man before the world even began. 

The simple truth we are given is that YHWH before the world began purposed a Son of Man to receive glory. YHWH did make humans in His own image.  The Son of Man prior to going to his death asked YHWH for that very glory that was of YHWH for the Son of Man to receive. This glory was spoken by the prophets and Jesus was well versed and held all faith in those WORDS concerning himself, the Son of Man. Jesus, the man who shed his blood, called the Second Adam/HUMAN is he who exists in the image of our God. 

This son of Man being begotten by YHWH upon his resurrection, is according to a PROMISE unto David concerning David’s son, IT IS NOT according to Jesus being YHWH.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them,Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Mathew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

[Ed J]

Berean please give me your take on Hebrews 11:3

Darby Bible Translation
By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,
so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

Weymouth New Testament
Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,
so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

so, According to Hebrews 11:3 Jesus CANNOT be “The Word” – what say you?

Berean,

You’re addressing the first part of the verse, while I want you to comment on the second or highlighted part.

Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread on this since no-one wants to address this here

____________
God bless
Ed J

[Ed J]

Is your view changing from “The Word” being Jesus to “The Word” being the “Spirit of Christ” then ?

My view hasn’t changed since before this forum was created.

Hi T8,

We both agree that the “Spirit of Christ” pre-existed Jesus’ birth on Earth.
And we both know the man Jesus did not pre-existed Jesus’ birth on Earth.

So how can you claim that Jesus is “the word” in light of what Hebrews 11:3 clearly states?

Darby Bible Translation
By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,
so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

Weymouth New Testament
Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,
so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

[Jodi]

Hi Berean,

YOU:This king of glory whom David describes to us in this psalms is not God the Father, but THE SON OF GOD

ME: This is VERY UNTRUE Berean, clearly evident by the passages below. 

Psalm 9:1 I will praise thee, O LORD, with my whole heart; I will shew forth all thy marvellous works. 2 I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High. 3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence. 4 For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right. 5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. 6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them. 7 But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment. 8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. 9 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. 10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee. 

Acts 17:31 Because HE hath appointed a day, in the which HE will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that HE hath raised him from the dead.

1 Chronicles 17:10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house. 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in MY kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. …

20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 21 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt? 22 For thy people Israel didst thou make thine own people for ever; and thou, LORD, becamest their God. 23 Therefore now, LORD, let the thing that thou hast spoken concerning thy SERVANT and concerning his house be established for ever, and do as thou hast said. 24 Let it even be established, that thy name may be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God of Israel, even a God to Israel: and let the house of David thy servant be established before thee.

Psalms 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. 5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. 6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? 7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him. 8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? 9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them. 10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm. 11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them…

..13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand. 14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face…

15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. 16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted. 17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted. 18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. 19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. 20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

NOTICE Berean, David is speaking here of the LORD of whom there is no one in the heavens that can be compared to HIM, “The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them“. THIS LORD promises to establish David’s seed forever, He promises to give His mercy and not take it away unto David’s son, He promises to make him a firstborn and to make him higher than all the kings of the earth. This LORD himself is a KING.

Psalms 24:1 The earth is the LORD’S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. 2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods. 3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? 4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. 5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. 6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah. 7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle. 9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

NOW READ Isaiah 53, distinguish WHO is the LORD, where there is NONE BESIDES HIM, where He ALONE is our God, and who the LORD most certainly IS NOT.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

JESUS is NOT the LORD, the LORD IS THE NAME OF ONE PERSON, our HEAVENLY FATHER. Jesus is the LORD’S SERVANT, who will reign on earth as a king of kings destroying all enemies IN THE NAME of his God and our God, YHWH. When that is accomplished YHWH will come and enter the holy gates into HIS KINGDOM and dwell with us, where He will be ALL IN ALL.

 

[Jodi]

Hi Berean,

YOU:

Hi Jodi

Revelation 19 shos us that Jesus is “THE WORD OF GOD”

and

THE KING OF KINGS

ME: Jesus, the root and offspring of David, the Son of Man returning in his Father’s glory, who had SHED his blood, is called the Word of God, and for VERY GOOD REASON.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Him shedding his blood first of all Bearean, IS YHWH’s WORD spoken by Isaiah in chapter 53 made true in the man of flesh Jesus. 

Second, Jesus being slain was YHWH’S WORD even before the world was, as YHWH’S determined purpose before the world even began was for this Son of Man to be SLAIN for our salvation. 

 

[Berean]

Edj

you

Berean please give me your take on Hebrews 11:3

 

Darby Bible Translation

By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,

so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

 

Weymouth New Testament

Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,

so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

 

so, According to Hebrews 11:3 Jesus CANNOT be “The Word” – what say you?Berean,

 

Once again you are addressing the first part of the verse, while I want you to comment on the second or highlighted part.

 

Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread on this since no-one wants to address this here

 

____________

God bless

Ed J

Berean please give me your take on Hebrews 11:3

 

Darby Bible Translation

By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,

so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

 

Weymouth New Testament

Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,

so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

 

VERY SIMPLE    Edj

 

God creates all things by His POWER
He needs nothing
BEFORE HE TALKS, THERE IS NOTHING
WHEN HE SPEAKS, THING EXISTS

“THE WORD “THAT WAS GOD WAS THE EXECUTOR OF THE WILL OF GOD THE FATHER;

God bless

Brn

 

so, According to Hebrews 11:3 Jesus CANNOT be “The Word” – what say you?Berean,

 

Once again you are addressing the first part of the verse, while I want you to comment on the second or highlighted part.

 

Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread on this since no-one wants to address this here

 

 

 

 

 

[Berean]

Jodi

The more you resist the biblical truth, the more the light will shine in the midst of darkness.
Denying the Divinity of Christ Makes You Right in the Wall
LIKE FOR PAUL, I WISH YOU TO BE STOPPED ON THE WAY
BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE ….

 

AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD.……..

ONLY A PERSON IS GOD AND THE GOD……THE FATHER

ONLY  A PERSON WAS GOD……..THE SON OF GOD

CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE

For in him(Jesus Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead(divinity) bodily.

divinity+humanity

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.(1 Timoty 3:16)

GOD (the Word was gGod) manifest in the flesh…

 

GOD BLESS

[Lightenup]

Hi Jodi,

Jesus taught that he was the Son of God and also the giver of eternal life. That alone would be considered “making himself equal with God.”

Can you let yourself imagine what would an only biological (speaking in terms of deity biology) son be like? In other words, if God brought forth his very own son asexually, one that was of his own nature, before anything was created, how differently would you be thinking about him?

Blessings,

LU

[Proclaimer]

Jesus taught that he was the Son of God and also the giver of eternal life. That alone would be considered “making himself equal with God.”

Human reasoning right there.

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

Note the word ‘granted’.

God is the boss. Even of the Son.

[Jodi]

Hi Berean,

It’s not helpful for you to make claims about me resisting biblical truth, when I give you scripture upon scripture and you refuse to discuss those scriptures.

You consistently ignore passages I want you to read and want you to then discuss with me.

You instead respond by diverting to other passages, passages of which I say you misinterpret all because you don’t read and then apply the passages I have given you. 

 

[Jodi]

Hi Berean,

Your interpretation of 1 Timothy 3:16 makes the image of our Christ into an image of antichrist.

Recall what you are told by Paul in the prior chapter, there is ONE God and that ONE GOD is NOT JESUS.  Paul established clearly that he wants us to see Christ Jesus as a man, anthropos/HUMAN BEING.

1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

1 Timothy 3: 15-16 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Berean, you are not properly understanding what “God was manifested in the flesh” means.

The mystery of godliness is the fruits of the Spirit dwelling upon a man. God was fully manifested in the flesh of Jesus, where God’s Spirit worked in him all manner of godliness.  

Paul speaks a number of times about this godliness, it is seen as the fruits of God’s Spirit. Any ounce of godliness that you have is God’s Spirit being manifested in your flesh.

Manifest is to be made known.

Jesus received the Spirit of God without measure, AN ANOINTING (CHRIO) made into THE CHRISTOS. He was sent out to make God’s gospel KNOWN. All the works that he did and all that he said were God’s words and deeds.

Apply the below passages to 1 Timothy 3:16

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him,Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them,When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Acts 10:37 That WORD, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; FOR GOD WAS WITH him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

See what you have done Berean? You have taken our Christ, Jesus of Nazareth ANOINTED with our Father’s Spirit and turned him into a FALSE IMAGE. He is NOT GOD.  God is manifested (made known) in Jesus’s flesh through him having been anointed with the Holy Spirit and power.

GOD IS WITH Jesus, having anointed his flesh with His Spirit, whereby God was manifested (made known) in the man of flesh Jesus.

NOT Jesus was God and then he was made into flesh.

 

[Jodi]

Hi Berean,

Israel believed that obeying the law gave them their godliness. They did not know the mystery of godliness, which is seen in CHRIST JESUS. Any man who keeps a law or laws does so because our One True God gave the fruit of His Spirit enabling them to do so. Christ Jesus kept ever letter of the law because he had the fullness of God’s Spirit dwelling in him directing all his ways.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. 

The letter tells us right from wrong, and we are told that the carnal mind is not subject to the law or indeed can be. So we may know what it is that God says is right and wrong, but we are not of our own selves capable of following any law. Where the Spirit dwells that is where righteousness dwells and it is unto God’s grace to give it as He pleases according to His will. We are promised to receive it in fullness upon our resurrection where we will be made perfect, God ALL IN, where we walk in all of His ways as Christ Jesus does.

Gal 5:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[Berean]

Hi Jodi

The subject HERE is to know who is THE WORD.
Yet not difficult …
You don’t need a bunch of verses to understand this;

[Proclaimer]

Jodi or Gene cannot explain why scripture says that God created the cosmos through the Word, the Son of God, and Jesus Christ.

Was it three agents or one? They seem to think none and provide poor excuses and unrelated scriptures.

And repeating this same old spin and expecting a different result after the thousandth attempt is a definition of madness.

[Berean]

We often need to unlearn before we learn … to demolish before to rebuild

… a time to break down, and a time to build up…(Ecclesiastes 3:3b)

[GeneBalthrop]

T8…. First you need to explain to us is, how a persons words is not the person , you say Jesus was God’s word “himself” , but that not what Jesus said.  Show us any scripture where Jesus ever said he “himself” is God the Fathers word.   Your words are with you because they cannot be someone else. Even if someone quotes you, it’s still you,  as the man Jesus said he was doing telling Us God the Fathers words.  

The picture you and others portray of  Jesus is  as a thief, stealing from God, making himself equal with GOD, by saying he “HIMSELF’ is the word of GOD, That would make him also a GOD. Espically if you say he also created everything that exists, as you say.

I as well as Jodi have explained to you over and over the meaning of the Greek word “dia”,  but you all fail to even go read it for yourselves and understand it as related to the scriptures you people use. So you people deserve to remain ignorant to the truth. IMO.  You really don’t “love the truth”   or you would have seriously considered what we have written here.

Jodi and I have produced many  scriptures to prove our points, but you all fail to even read them much less understand them. What you are is the blind leading the blind and you all have fallen into the ditch groping at the walls. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

 

 

[Berean]

 

t8

You

Jesus taught that he was the Son of God and also the giver of eternal life. That alone would be considered “making himself equal with God.”
Human reasoning right there.

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

Note the word ‘granted’.

God is the boss. Even of the Son.

Me

Jesus said:

in John 10

17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
[18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 2:19

[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

When the Father gave the order to his eldest Son
to resume his life, he executed his Father’s order, and The Son of GOD resumed his life as he had announced:  ….”in three days I will raise it up.”….”I have power to take it again”….This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Berean]

Gene

Denying the divinity of Christ is a big handicap …
I pray for you Gene that you open your eyes and see that.
Amen

 

[Lightenup]

t8,

Regarding this conversation:

LU: Jesus taught that he was the Son of God and also the giver of eternal life. That alone would be considered “making himself equal with God.”
Human reasoning right there.

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

t8: Note the word ‘granted’.

God is the boss. Even of the Son.

That word “granted” does not in any way challenge my view which is:

There is only one God alone and that one God is expressed as two persons together, not one person alone…a Father working out all things through his only begotten Son and for the Son who is identical to him in eternal nature, united in spirit.

In fact, the one consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit completely agrees with the notion of a level of authority within it. A level of authority does not show a difference in nature even in human father and sons. You are the boss of your young son, that doesn’t mean that he is less than you in being human does it.

Blessings, LU

[Author]

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