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Quote it is more obvious here that Christ would have appeared in a different looks ,but because of the miracle they knew it was him ,it seems that their new teaching from Christ was to recognize him in words and action and not only by an face , –terr
Ok, because of the miracle, they knew it was The Lord. So, knowing it was The Lord, why would they ever have to ask: “WHO ARE YOU?”
As I asked:
–if you were there, terr, why would you have to ask that question in the first place? Sure, you might be freaked out by seeing him. But, why would you have to ask: WHO ARE YOU?”You never really answered this question.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 07 2012,12:24) Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2012,16:15) What does one do when there is one scripture that seems to point in favour of one idea, and many other scriptures that seem to point in the other direction?
David,This is more a case of one scripture that SPECIFICALLY and EXPLICITELY teaches a certain thing, as compared to many other scriptures that can easily be understood many different ways.
It would be explicit if the bible didn't have about 5 meanings for the word “spirit.”Quote They eventually recognized it was Jesus, but knowing Jesus was “dead and gone”, they didn't want to be chastized by their Lord (just in case it was really him) by asking, “Who are you sir, because you remind us of Jesus, but we know he died”. –mike
Mike, this is an interesting explanation.
Except, this was the third time he appeared to the disciples. They should have known he was alive. And not be shocked by this fact.
Also, this is after he just performed the catching of fish miracle for them, here they “knew” it was The Lord. They knew this anyway, when they were a far way off, in the fishing vessel. But, when they came ashore, they for some reason had a reason to want to ask: “who are you,” but, they were afraid to ask because they believed it was The Lord. So again, why any need to ask “who are you”?
Quote They KIND OF knew it was the Lord, but were understandably confused as to how exactly the Lord, who they knew was dead and gone, could be sitting there alive. It makes no sense at all. It was the THIRD appearance to the disciples. Also, reading the account, he just performed a miracle, not just a miracle, but a miracle that would instantly remind them of e first time he did is miracle, and instantly, while yet a long way off, they would know it was Jesus.
(I also wonder about his voice. Even at a distance, they of course could hear him. They should easily recognize their masters voice. The miracle made it obvious who he was. They came ashore. They were all afraid to make the inquiry “who are you” for they knew it was The Lord.)
Quote Does that make sense? I could come up with an analogy if needed. You could, but I don't think it will fit, for the reasons I pointed out above
Quote (david @ Nov. 07 2012,08:58) Quote it is more obvious here that Christ would have appeared in a different looks ,but because of the miracle they knew it was him ,it seems that their new teaching from Christ was to recognize him in words and action and not only by an face , –terr
Ok, because of the miracle, they knew it was The Lord. So, knowing it was The Lord, why would they ever have to ask: “WHO ARE YOU?”
As I asked:
–if you were there, terr, why would you have to ask that question in the first place? Sure, you might be freaked out by seeing him. But, why would you have to ask: WHO ARE YOU?”You never really answered this question.
DavidI could only point out one more thing ;it could be that some were still in doubt about his resurrection,
Lk 24:38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
this also confirms ;
Lk 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Lk 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
Lk 24:46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
Lk 24:47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lk 24:48 You are witnesses of these things.fulfillement of scriptures ,
“NOT ONE of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Remember, he just performed the miracle of filling their net with fish, a miracle he performed when he first met some of them I believe. They should have instantly discerned that Jesus, who had appeared to the disciples twice before, was responsible for the miracle.
Yet, on coming ashore, despite knowing it was Jesus, “NOT ONE” of them had the courage to ask: “who are you.”
Saying some were still in doubt about the resurrection, when he just performed this miracle makes little sense. If you believe it was his fleshly body that was resurrected, couldn't they just look at his hands and see holes? Couldn't they just look at his face, whether battered and beaten or not, and discern exactly who it was?
In fact, scripture says they knew it was The Lord.So again, why would they ever need to ask “who are you”?
(You never actually answered my question. Try to put yourself there, in the situation. Try to make sense of it.)
Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,00:40) “NOT ONE of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12) Remember, he just performed the miracle of filling their net with fish, a miracle he performed when he first met some of them I believe. They should have instantly discerned that Jesus, who had appeared to the disciples twice before, was responsible for the miracle.
Yet, on coming ashore, despite knowing it was Jesus, “NOT ONE” of them had the courage to ask: “who are you.”
Saying some were still in doubt about the resurrection, when he just performed this miracle makes little sense. If you believe it was his fleshly body that was resurrected, couldn't they just look at his hands and see holes? Couldn't they just look at his face, whether battered and beaten or not, and discern exactly who it was?
In fact, scripture says they knew it was The Lord.So again, why would they ever need to ask “who are you”?
(You never actually answered my question. Try to put yourself there, in the situation. Try to make sense of it.)
So again, why would they ever need to ask “who are you”??” because they knew it was the Lord.”
So, they were afraid to ask: “who are you” because they knew it was The Lord.
I get that. That is in fact what the scripture says.
It's not what I'm asking. Why would they have any reason to ever have to ask that.
QUESTION: If you have a best friend, or a family member you spend your time with for 3 years, what reason would you have to ask them: “who are you”?, and being afraid to ask, knowing it is your friend.
Obviously, you would know and recognize your friend, by voice, by sight, by action.
Jesus disciples certainly recognized it was Jesus (by action) when he performed the miracle. Yet, I'm suggesting that when they came ashore, they could not identify him by sight, despite bowing it was Jesus.
Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,03:50) So, they were afraid to ask: “who are you” because they knew it was The Lord. I get that. That is in fact what the scripture says.
It's not what I'm asking. Why would they have any reason to ever have to ask that.
QUESTION: If you have a best friend, or a family member you spend your time with for 3 years, what reason would you have to ask them: “who are you”?, and being afraid to ask, knowing it is your friend.
Obviously, you would know and recognize your friend, by voice, by sight, by action.
Jesus disciples certainly recognized it was Jesus (by action) when he performed the miracle. Yet, I'm suggesting that when they came ashore, they could not identify him by sight, despite bowing it was Jesus.
Davidyes that is what I have mention previously, at the shore he did not look like the first time and any other time after that ,, guessing here
David,
I am not sure what your point is but the obvious answer is that Jesus' features were obscured in some way. Looking through the account I learned it was morning and he was about 90 meters/100 yards away from them when he stood on the shore and gave them advice. They listened to that advice though they seemed not to recognize his voice. He had moved from the shore to beside a fire by the the time they had landed.
It was morning before breakfast and therefore might have been dark still which makes the fact they appeared not to have recognized his voice as a more telling point.
The bottom line is that Jehovah concealed Jesus' features and voice from his students; so that he would be known by his actions.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,17:11) The bottom line is that Jehovah concealed Jesus' features and voice from his students; so that he would be known by his actions.
That is an interesting speculation, Kerwin.David, why don't you tell us what it meant that they didn't want to ask “Who are you?” .
What do you want us to say? We have all given our best ideas to explain this conundrum, and you're not happy with any of those ideas. So why don't you tell us what it meant?
Also, what does this hard to understand scripture have to do with your point here?
Let's say the answer is that Jesus was unrecognizable to them, because he SOUNDED like Jesus, but didn't LOOK like Jesus. Then what? Would that somehow prove that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit being?
If so, I don't see how.
Quote (david @ Nov. 03 2012,23:41) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 03 2012,01:42) ] Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2012,11:38) “tell me, what was offered, was it the li[f]e or the body “– terr What does heb 10:10 say?
]davidMT 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
MK 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
LK 9:24 “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.
LK 12:15 Then He said to them, “ Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions.”
LK 12:22 And He said to His disciples, “ For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on.
LK 12:23 “For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.LK 15:24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.
LK 17:33 “ Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
so with those scriptures what is the body worth ???the onlything we have is the sacrifice to God the will of our flesh by doing the will of God and so not of the body or flesh,the body his NOT YOUR LIFE
If the scripture very clearly and very plainly says in all bibles that he offered his “body”, his human body, and we are also told that he sacrificed his life, what does that tell us?If someone kills my body, then I am dead. Jesus was a human while on earth. He gave up his human body. He sacrificed his human life.
A human body is connected to their life. When you wake up tomorrow, try living without your body. It won't work.
Very sorry, quite ill. Will respond to posts in a day or two.
Hi David,Heb.10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
:20 by a new and living way which he inaugurated for us through the veil, that is his flesh,
Maybe this can help? Peace
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 08 2012,09:03) Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,03:50) So, they were afraid to ask: “who are you” because they knew it was The Lord. I get that. That is in fact what the scripture says.
It's not what I'm asking. Why would they have any reason to ever have to ask that.
QUESTION: If you have a best friend, or a family member you spend your time with for 3 years, what reason would you have to ask them: “who are you”?, and being afraid to ask, knowing it is your friend.
Obviously, you would know and recognize your friend, by voice, by sight, by action.
Jesus disciples certainly recognized it was Jesus (by action) when he performed the miracle. Yet, I'm suggesting that when they came ashore, they could not identify him by sight, despite bowing it was Jesus.
Davidyes that is what I have mention previously, at the shore he did not look like the first time and any other time after that ,, guessing here
Hi terr,So, you think Jesus didn't look the same, after his resurrection? Is that what you are saying?
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 08 2012,10:11) David, I am not sure what your point is but the obvious answer is that Jesus' features were obscured in some way. Looking through the account I learned it was morning and he was about 90 meters/100 yards away from them when he stood on the shore and gave them advice. They listened to that advice though they seemed not to recognize his voice. He had moved from the shore to beside a fire by the the time they had landed.
It was morning before breakfast and therefore might have been dark still which makes the fact they appeared not to have recognized his voice as a more telling point.
The bottom line is that Jehovah concealed Jesus' features and voice from his students; so that he would be known by his actions.
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because THEY KNEW it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)Regardless if Jesus features were obscured, they knew it was Jesus. See above.
Also, while on the boat, right after the miracle, Peter said: IT IS THE LORD, and he jumped into the sea to swim ashore.
Question: if they “knew it was The Lord” (21:12), in what sense was his identity concealed, as you say?
My whole question revolves around a sentence in the bible that BOTH says they knew it was him, and simultaneously, were afraid to ask: WHO ARE YOU?
Why is no one understanding what I am asking?
Quote (david @ Nov. 07 2012,14:07) Quote They eventually recognized it was Jesus, but knowing Jesus was “dead and gone”, they didn't want to be chastized by their Lord (just in case it was really him) by asking, “Who are you sir, because you remind us of Jesus, but we know he died”. –mike
Mike, this is an interesting explanation.
Except, this was the third time he appeared to the disciples. They should have known he was alive. And not be shocked by this fact.
Also, this is after he just performed the catching of fish miracle for them, here they “knew” it was The Lord. They knew this anyway, when they were a far way off, in the fishing vessel. But, when they came ashore, they for some reason had a reason to want to ask: “who are you,” but, they were afraid to ask because they believed it was The Lord. So again, why any need to ask “who are you”?
“What do you want us to say? We have all given our best ideas to explain this conundrum, and you're not happy with any of those ideas. So why don't you tell us what it meant?”–mike.Mike, I am seeing if anyone has an idea that makes sense. Do you think your idea made sense?
Quote (david @ Nov. 07 2012,14:11) Quote They KIND OF knew it was the Lord, but were understandably confused as to how exactly the Lord, who they knew was dead and gone, could be sitting there alive. It makes no sense at all. It was the THIRD appearance to the disciples. Also, reading the account, he just performed a miracle, not just a miracle, but a miracle that would instantly remind them of e first time he did is miracle, and instantly, while yet a long way off, they would know it was Jesus.
(I also wonder about his voice. Even at a distance, they of course could hear him. They should easily recognize their masters voice. The miracle made it obvious who he was. They came ashore. They were all afraid to make the inquiry “who are you” for they knew it was The Lord.)
As I said in this post, your answer “makes no sense at all.”Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 08 2012,12:37) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,17:11) The bottom line is that Jehovah concealed Jesus' features and voice from his students; so that he would be known by his actions.
That is an interesting speculation, Kerwin.David, why don't you tell us what it meant that they didn't want to ask “Who are you?” .
What do you want us to say? We have all given our best ideas to explain this conundrum, and you're not happy with any of those ideas. So why don't you tell us what it meant?
Also, what does this hard to understand scripture have to do with your point here?
Let's say the answer is that Jesus was unrecognizable to them, because he SOUNDED like Jesus, but didn't LOOK like Jesus. Then what? Would that somehow prove that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit being?
If so, I don't see how.
We aren't told that he sounded like Jesus. (If I was on a boat and my brother was 90 yards away, and I could hear him yelling out instructions that I followed, I would certainly be able to recognize his voice)Here is what I am of course suggesting:
That the many scriptures are right, that he sacrificed and offered his (human) body, and life; that this was a ransom, or price paid, that would not be given back or undone, that he was raised a spirit, as scripture says, and to impress upon his followers that point, he appeared to them a few times in different bodies. Unlike mike, I do believe there is evidence in the heb scriptures of spirits materializing human bodies. Even if there wasn't, I think Jesus could pull it off.
This would explain why they absolutely knew it was Jesus, from his actions, but at the same time, because it looked nothing like Jesus, there was the desire to ask, and confirm: “who are you.” Yet, not one of them had the courage to ask who he was, because they just knew it was Jesus–by his actions.
And it wasn't just this THIRD instance where he wasn't recognized. It happened the same a couple times before. Why? Because he looked nothing like he did before.
He could have materialized a similar looking body, but he didn't to impress upon his disciples minds that he had been raised a spirit.
And now, the account in the upper room will be asked about…
Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,09:36) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 08 2012,09:03) Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,03:50) So, they were afraid to ask: “who are you” because they knew it was The Lord. I get that. That is in fact what the scripture says.
It's not what I'm asking. Why would they have any reason to ever have to ask that.
QUESTION: If you have a best friend, or a family member you spend your time with for 3 years, what reason would you have to ask them: “who are you”?, and being afraid to ask, knowing it is your friend.
Obviously, you would know and recognize your friend, by voice, by sight, by action.
Jesus disciples certainly recognized it was Jesus (by action) when he performed the miracle. Yet, I'm suggesting that when they came ashore, they could not identify him by sight, despite bowing it was Jesus.
Davidyes that is what I have mention previously, at the shore he did not look like the first time and any other time after that ,, guessing here
Hi terr,So, you think Jesus didn't look the same, after his resurrection? Is that what you are saying?
DavidQuote So, you think Jesus didn't look the same, after his resurrection? Is that what you are saying? Mt 28:6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said.
Mt 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Mk 16:14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
Lk 24:11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense.
Jn 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
Jn 20:20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.Jn 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Jn 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jn 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”Jn 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
Jn 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.now this ;;;
Jn 21:1 Afterward Jesus appeared again to his disciples, by the Sea of Tiberias. It happened this way:
Jn 21:6 He said, “Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.
Jn 21:7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, “It is the Lord,” he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water.
Jn 21:8 The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards.
Jn 21:9 When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread.
Jn 21:10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you have just caught.”
Jn 21:11 Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn.
Jn 21:12 Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples dared ask him, “Who are you?” They knew it was the Lord.
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