What does it mean that Jesus came in the flesh?

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

I look back fondly on all the fun I had WITH YOU when we were kids.

Give me the fun I had with you before 1930 does not seem to work out so well.

Give me the present I had with you before 1930 works a whole lot better.

[mikeboll64]

Kerwin,

This seems to be a useless endeavor on my part, because you are going to twist the scriptures into teaching what you WANT them to teach – no matter what I do or say.

But rest assured, the words “I HAD” are never said by someone who DIDN'T actually HAVE the thing before.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 18 2013,18:29)

Give me the fun I had with you before 1930 does not seem to work out so well.

Try the word “respect” instead.

Respect me now with the respect I had with you in 1930.

Or “honor”.

In either case, the speaker actually HAD the respect/honor that he said he HAD. It doesn't speak about a respect/honor that the speaker had never yet actually received, does it?

Like I said, no one says “I HAD” unless they truly HAD that thing in the past.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2013,12:10)

Kerwin, This seems to be a useless endeavor on my part, because you are going to twist the scriptures into teaching what you WANT them to teach – no matter what I do or say. But rest assured, the words “I HAD” are never said by someone who DIDN'T actually HAVE the thing before.

MIke………It is not kerwin twisting those scriptures it is you. If you can't understand Jesus was talking about a Glory afforded him that was written in scriptures and was planned by God the Father, before he ever came into existence. It is obvious that you must always force the text meet your personal dogmas. Where dose it say “the glory i was having with you”, Jesus said the glory “I HAD”, but no where does it say He already experienced that glory before he came into existence on this earth, You are speculating at best, without any supporting evidence.

Mike, You can't even produce ONE SCRIPTURE, that shows any Activity of Jesus before His berth on this earth, much less any of his the Glory he was supposedly by you, experiencing, you can only speculate about it , but provable and specific scriptures, you or no one else has yet produced any, not even ONE>

When you speculate you are forcing text, to say what you hope and want it to say. This is how all the confusion about scriptures came to be in the first place , men speculating and forcing scriptures to say what, in fact, they never said in the first place.

peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2013,07:10)

Kerwin, This seems to be a useless endeavor on my part, because you are going to twist the scriptures into teaching what you WANT them to teach – no matter what I do or say. But rest assured, the words “I HAD” are never said by someone who DIDN'T actually HAVE the thing before.

Mike,

You keep insisting that like you believe God does not know all things and has not had a plan since before the world began.

God planned for Jesus to undergo the glory of sacrificing himself. It was a heroically righteous choice on Jesus' part. There is glory in that action. God glorified Jesus by raising him from the dead and setting him on his throne that was his since before the world began.

All “I had” means is that it is a individuals possession. In this you seem to have trouble fitting your mind that God knew Jesus before he was conceived in his mother's womb and prepared a place that was his.

I am thinking of what you said previously and since fun is a shared experience perhaps you like the Aramaic in Plain English think the glory Jesus had with God was also shared with God instead of a type of possession. Do I understand you correctly?

[kerwin]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,06:29)

Mike, Quote I look back fondly on all the fun I had WITH YOU when we were kids. Give me the fun I had with you before 1930 does not seem to work out so well. Give me the present I had with you before 1930 works a whole lot better.

Mike,

I was thinking how it works in English but it is a translation from a foreign language and the structure may be less awkward in Koine Greek.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2013,04:25)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2013,23:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2013,05:16) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2013,08:38) T, Humans are called gods in English as well as in Koine Greek and Hebrew. Show me the human that is called a god in either the Hebrew or Greek scriptures. Mike, You do not believe Jesus so why would you believe me? Okay.  Then just show me where JESUS called any human beings “god”.

Mike,

He stated that those who received the word of God were called gods in Scripture. The only ones I know that received the word of God were the children of Israel.

[terraricca]

w

Quote

Dont get confused as the majority are. God did not die;but his Word made flesh died.

so it is THE LIVE OF WORDS OF GOD THAT AS BEEN OFFER FOR THE SINS OF MEN

IT IS THE “THE WORDS OF GOD “THAT HAVE MADE THE RECONCILIATION POSSIBLE SINS THIS “WORDS OR WORD ” IS NOT A BEING ACCORDING TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING

Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

so in the above scriptures it should be clear according to your view John is wrong in his statement of saying that it is Jesus Christ

it should have been “THE WORDS OF GOD ” OR SPEAKING WORDS OF GOD “

i HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU ;

WHAT HAS THE LAW THAT CAME THROUGH MOSES -AS IN RELATION WITH – “THE GRACE AND TRUTH ” THAT CAME THROUGH JESUS CHRIST

Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

SO WE SHOULD READ THOSE SCRIPTURES LIKE THIS;

Jn 1:2 He(THE WORDS OF GOD ) was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him(THE WORDS OF GOD ) all things were made; without him(THE WORDS OF GOD ) nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him(THE WORDS OF GOD ) was life, and that life was the light of men.
Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

so according to those scriptures it is clear that the WORD OF GOD is a living being not something in waiting for words to be spoken right ???it uses HE AND HIM,
to describing that person because John would not have used those words for a thing who are words, right

Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

in the above verse John says that Jesus Christ is “the Lamb of God,not THE WORD OF GOD COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHY

could it been his mistake that it was not Jesus but as you say THE WORDS OF GOD THAT ARE THE LAMB NOT THE BEING

Jn 1:50 Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that.”
Jn 1:51 He then added, “I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

IN THE VERSES ABOVE JESUS CALLS HIS FIRST DISCIPLES AND YET HE COULD SEE THING AND ADD THAT THEY WILL SEE THE HEAVEN OPEN AND THE ANGELS OF GOD COMING DOWN AND UP ON HIM ;THE SON OF MAN ;;BUT ACCORDING TO YOU IT WOULD BE WORDS THAT THE DISCIPLES WILL SEE NOT A BEING ,SO HOW CAN ANGELS (MESSENGERS) COME ON HIM ???IF HE IS ONLY WORDS

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,12:00)

Mike, He stated that those who received the word of God were called gods in Scripture. The only ones I know that received the word of God were the children of Israel.

Psalm 82 is about spirit beings, Kerwin……. not men.

What sense would it make to tell a MAN that he was going to die like a MAN?

You just need to think things out.

Is that the only scripture you have?

[mikeboll64]

Gene and Kerwin,

Jesus said, “the glory I WAS HAVING“.

Those words will NEVER mean, “the glory YOU HAVE BEEN HOLDING FOR ME“, or, “the glory YOU HAVE AFFORDED ME“ – no matter how much you WANT them to.

The bottom line is that Jesus himself WAS HAVING GLORY before the world began.

Let me ask you this, to see how honest you both are:

Can you at least understand why SO MANY people like me believe John 17:5 speaks about a glory Jesus actually HAD ,way back before he was ever made flesh?

Can you see how EASY it is for us to understand the words Jesus actually said the way we understand them?

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,06:34)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,12:00) Mike, He stated that those who received the word of God were called gods in Scripture.  The only ones I know that received the word of God were the children of Israel. Psalm 82 is about spirit beings, Kerwin……. not men. What sense would it make to tell a MAN that he was going to die like a MAN?   You just need to think things out. Is that the only scripture you have?

Mike,

You mean angels whose bodies are not immaterial.

Then you disagree with Jesus who clearly states it is the ones that received God's word and not those who were created with it in their inward being and written on their mind.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,06:40)

Gene and Kerwin, Jesus said, “the glory I WAS HAVING“. Those words will NEVER mean, “the glory YOU HAVE BEEN HOLDING FOR ME“, or, “the glory YOU HAVE AFFORDED ME“ – no matter how much you WANT them to. The bottom line is that Jesus himself WAS HAVING GLORY before the world began. Let me ask you this, to see how honest you both are: Can you at least understand why SO MANY people like me believe John 17:5 speaks about a glory Jesus actually HAD ,way back before he was ever made flesh? Can you see how EASY it is for us to understand the words Jesus actually said the way we understand them?

Mike,

I had works well as it speaks of God's foreknowledge and fore-planning.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,06:40)

Gene and Kerwin, Jesus said, “the glory I WAS HAVING“.

Mike,

I looked it up and the base word can be used to mean “having” as in Matthew 8:9 but none of the verses biblehub showed me it was used in the same form translated it “I am having”.     Since the I is implied it could even be translated as “you were holding” similar to the “they were holding” it is translated to in Matthew 27:16 of the NAS.  That is similar to the “was holding” that you said so even though nor of the versions translated “eichon” to it that translation sounds plausible.  I like the I had for the reasons I gave and that it is traditional.

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………It is not “was having” it is, “I HAD” , just as Kerwin said . Jesus' Glory was a Planned Glory afforded him By God, before he ever came into existence , Just as the Glory and Honor of Man is afforded Him by the predetermine council of our GOD, before the very foundations of the earth . Who he “FOREKNEW” them He also “PREDESTINED” to be conformed unto the IMAGE of his dear Son. And again, “until we all come unto the full measure and statue of Christ Jesus”, And the fullness means Glory and honor and all thing under our feet also, just as it is for Jesus Now. He has now received that Glory and Honor afforded him from the foundations of the earth. But he did not have it till he received it after his resurrection from the dead. IMO

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2013,21:33)

Mike………It is not “was having” it is, “I HAD” , just as Kerwin said . Jesus' Glory was a Planned Glory afforded him By God, before he ever came into existence , Just as the Glory and Honor of Man is afforded Him by the predetermine council of our GOD, before the very foundations of the earth . Who he “FOREKNEW” them He also “PREDESTINED”  to be conformed unto the IMAGE of his dear Son. And again, “until we all come unto the full measure and statue of Christ Jesus”, And the fullness means Glory and honor and all thing under our feet also, just as it is for Jesus Now. He has now received that Glory and Honor afforded him from the foundations of the earth. But he did  not have it till he received it after his resurrection from the dead. IMO

G

Quote

Jesus' Glory was a Planned Glory

FIRST TELL WHAT THE GLORY IS

THEN TELL ME IN WHICH SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAYS THAT “JESUS GLORY WAS PLANNED ”

THANK YOU

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,22:08)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,06:34) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,12:00) Mike, He stated that those who received the word of God were called gods in Scripture.  The only ones I know that received the word of God were the children of Israel. Psalm 82 is about spirit beings, Kerwin……. not men. What sense would it make to tell a MAN that he was going to die like a MAN?   You just need to think things out. Is that the only scripture you have? Mike, You mean angels whose bodies are not immaterial. Then you disagree with Jesus who clearly states it is the ones that received God's word and not those who were created with it in their inward being and written on their mind.

I'm sorry.  Could you point out for me the scripture that says angels were all created with God's word in their inward being, and written on their mind?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,22:15)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,06:40) Gene and Kerwin, Jesus said, “the glory I WAS HAVING“. Those words will NEVER mean, “the glory YOU HAVE BEEN HOLDING FOR ME“, or, “the glory YOU HAVE AFFORDED ME“ – no matter how much you WANT them to. The bottom line is that Jesus himself WAS HAVING GLORY before the world began. Let me ask you this, to see how honest you both are: Can you at least understand why SO MANY people like me believe John 17:5 speaks about a glory Jesus actually HAD ,way back before he was ever made flesh? Can you see how EASY it is for us to understand the words Jesus actually said the way we understand them? Mike, I had works well as it speaks of God's foreknowledge and fore-planning.

Well then, that's bad news for you, since the phrase is literally, “the glory I WAS HAVING“.

Besides, why do you keep switching “I” with “YOU”? You guys maintain it was a glory GOD had, and was holding for Jesus, because Jesus had never yet actually HAD that glory.

But if that was the case, Jesus would have referred to the glory “YOU had”, not the glory “I was having”. In fact, he would have probably said, “the glory you HAVE [waiting for me]”.

But once again, the words, “I WAS HAVING” will NEVER refer something that person never actually HAD.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,22:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,06:40) Gene and Kerwin, Jesus said, “the glory I WAS HAVING“. Mike, I looked it up and the base word can be used to mean “having” as in Matthew 8:9 but none of the verses biblehub showed me it was used in the same form translated it “I am having”.

From NETNotes:
The imperfect tense generally represents continual or repeated action. Where the present tense might indicate “they are asking,” the imperfect would indicate “they kept on asking.”

So literally, “the glory I KEPT ON HAVING”.

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,22:41)

Since the I is implied it could even be translated as “you were holding” similar to the “they were holding” it is translated to in Matthew 27:16 of the NAS.  That is similar to the “was holding” that you said so even though nor of the versions translated “eichon” to it that translation sounds plausible.

In John 17:5, the word “eichon” is written in the first person singular form……… which in the imperfect tense means, “I kept on having/holding”.

In Matthew 27:16, the word “eichon” is written in the third person plural form…….. which in the imperfect tense means, “THEY kept on having/holding”.

So whether you prefer “having” or “holding”, the fact is that JESUS is the one who was having/holding that glory.

Also consider the parallel use of “with you” in 17:5.

“Father, glorify me WITH YOU (in your presence) with the glory I kept on holding/having WITH YOU (in your presence) before the world began.”

If the first “with you” implies that Jesus is ready to finish up on earth, and be glorified in God's presence (as the context clearly teaches), then the parallel use of the same word most likely means the same thing, ie:  “in your presence”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2013,09:33)

Mike………It is not “was having” it is, “I HAD” , just as Kerwin said .

Well, hopefully you are smart enough to see how Kerwin was just proven wrong by the facts of the matter.

It is very telling that you guys are both having a very hard time with the LITERAL translation of, “I WAS HAVING”, or, “I KEPT ON HAVING”.

Have we discovered a chink in the armor?

Doesn't really matter though, because like I said, even if you keep it as, “the glory I HAD”, it still speaks of JESUS as the one who actually HAD that glory before the world began.

Those words will NEVER speak of a glory GOD had, and was holding FOR Jesus………. no matter how much common sense you want to throw out the window.

Now, I noticed that neither of you answered the “honesty” question I asked you yesterday. Shall I assume that was because your answer is, “YES Mike, it is EASY for us to see how you can understand it the way you do” ?

At any rate, this will be another “honesty” issue for you both. You now know the facts of the literal translation. So, will you both continue to buck AGAINST those facts until the cows come home? Or will you stop and think, “Maybe…….. just maybe, there IS something to this pre-existent Jesus thing” ?

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2013,06:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2013,09:33) Mike………It is not “was having” it is, “I HAD” , just as Kerwin said . Well, hopefully you are smart enough to see how Kerwin was just proven wrong by the facts of the matter. It is very telling that you guys are both having a very hard time with the LITERAL translation of, “I WAS HAVING”, or, “I KEPT ON HAVING”.   Have we discovered a chink in the armor?   Doesn't really matter though, because like I said, even if you keep it as, “the glory I HAD”, it still speaks of JESUS as the one who actually HAD that glory before the world began. Those words will NEVER speak of a glory GOD had, and was holding FOR Jesus………. no matter how much common sense you want to throw out the window. Now, I noticed that neither of you answered the “honesty” question I asked you yesterday.  Shall I assume that was because your answer is, “YES Mike, it is EASY for us to see how you can understand it the way you do” ? At any rate, this will be another “honesty” issue for you both.  You now know the facts of the literal translation.  So, will you both continue to buck AGAINST those facts until the cows come home?  Or will you stop and think, “Maybe…….. just maybe, there IS something to this pre-existent Jesus thing” ?

MIKE

Good respond but like the look into the mirror ,they walk away and soon forget what they have learned

[Author]

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