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Palal,
1) the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life. 2) God is love and there is no fear in love for fear has to do with punishment, and those who fear are not perfected in love.
How would you describe love? How would you match it with scriptures? Do you feel that christianity today matches up with the kind of love which was intended by scripture?
Quote (palal @ June 08 2013,12:15) Getting back to the same question, where are the scriptures to support your position? Again, the problem we have is it say's “Eternal Destruction” Another point is, if it's incorrect, why do all bible translations use the same words? (as far as I can find some use everlating) here's a link http://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm 
I still dont like it though) but as I have said we are stuck with it if we are to have an consistent interpretation. ie hermeneutics
Hi Palal,Does not “Eternal” and “Everlasting” mean the same thing?
Perhaps you can tell us where you believe the difference lies.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (palal @ June 08 2013,08:48) Your trying to mix individual accountability with the destruction of heaves and earth. COme on, your seriously believe that that seperat scriptures about different things that have the word destruction means the “eternal destruction” is wrong in the Thessalonians one?? It's a conspiracy theory, that all translators are biased is not really a robust explanation or answer to my fundamental question, translator biasis always goes the liberal way, no hell, no judgment etc. As for the two quotes, the english language is rapidly changing, so taking quotes from translations 100+ years old is fraut with difficulties. Rick Warren is notorious for using many translations untill he find one that says what he wants. So, back to my question, where are the scriptures to support your position? The ones that say specifically that sinners are do not go to “eternal Destruction” Providing scriptures abput this present creation as an answer does not meet the grade, Ill add another, is the bible the inerrant word of God? 
palal,Not all translators translate Scripture according to eternal damnation . I pointed that out with one example. I use the interlinear bible to get the modern idea of the words. At some point age lasting sin was replaced with eternal damnation which ended up in the KJV.
Jude 1:7
King James Version (KJV)7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Weymout words it different but even the KJV is talking about eternal fire and not eternal damnation.
Jude 1:7
Weymouth New Testament7So also Sodom and Gomorrah–and the neighboring towns in the same manner–having been guilty of gross fornication and having gone astray in pursuit of unnatural vice, are now before us as a specimen of the fire of the Ages in the punishment which they are undergoing.
now lets look a 2nd Thessalonian 1:9.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
King James Version (KJV)9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)9 They will be destroyed for ever. That will be their punishment. They will be for ever separated from the Lord and from his great and wonderful power.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)9 who shall suffer justice — destruction age-during — from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
Everlasting(age-during) destruction could mean once a person is destroyed they are destroyed forever,which is assumed to be an age by certain translators.
Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2013,13:05) T, Translator bias and lack of knowledge.
Mark 3:29
King James Version (KJV)29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Is a poor translation.
Mark 3:29
Weymouth New Testamentbut whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages.”
is a better one.
Hi Kerwin,“Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3)
Mark 3:29 ος δ αν βλασφημηση εις το πνευμα το αγιον ουκ εχει αφεσιν εις τον αιωνα αλλ ενοχος εστιν αιωνιου κρισεως
(And if one blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, they have no forgiveness – being forever guilty of eternal judgment.)
No need to read more into it, this means woe to those who don't repent of speaking out against God's Holy Spirit.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ June 08 2013,13:20) Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2013,13:05) T, Translator bias and lack of knowledge.
Mark 3:29
King James Version (KJV)29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Is a poor translation.
Mark 3:29
Weymouth New Testamentbut whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages.”
is a better one.
Hi Kerwin,“Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3)
Mark 3:29 ος δ αν βλασφημηση εις το πνευμα το αγιον ουκ εχει αφεσιν εις τον αιωνα αλλ ενοχος εστιν αιωνιου κρισεως
(And if one blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, they have no forgiveness – being forever guilty of eternal judgment.)
No need to read more into it, this means woe to those who don't repent of speaking out against God's Holy Spirit.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,I believe the KJV is translated from the 5th Century Codex Bezae and the Latin Vulgate traditions. Neither are as reliable as earlier sources.
Perhaps you have better information.
Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2013,18:53) Quote (Ed J @ June 08 2013,13:20) Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2013,13:05) T, Translator bias and lack of knowledge.
Mark 3:29
King James Version (KJV)29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Is a poor translation.
Mark 3:29
Weymouth New Testamentbut whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages.”
is a better one.
Hi Kerwin,“Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3)
Mark 3:29 ος δ αν βλασφημηση εις το πνευμα το αγιον ουκ εχει αφεσιν εις τον αιωνα αλλ ενοχος εστιν αιωνιου κρισεως
(And if one blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, they have no forgiveness – being forever guilty of eternal judgment.)
No need to read more into it, this means woe to those who don't repent of speaking out against God's Holy Spirit.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,I believe the KJV is translated from the 5th Century Codex Bezae and the Latin Vulgate traditions. Neither are as reliable as earlier sources.
Perhaps you have better information.
Hi Kerwin, yes I do.Here is a thread I started, where I posted much evidence… (Link)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Kerwin,
The bishops bible used the Latin Vulgate,
The AKJV Bible used “The Majority Texts.”God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (palal @ June 08 2013,16:48) Your trying to mix individual accountability with the destruction of heaves and earth. COme on, your seriously believe that that seperat scriptures about different things that have the word destruction means the “eternal destruction”
Palal, it is not me that says it, it is Peter (scripture). So yes of course I am serious about the same destruction of the heavens and earth being tied together with the wicked.Read what Peter said again if you don't believe it.
2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.Q: What way are all things including the wicked destroyed?
A: Fire.
Q: And what are all things exactly that are destroyed by this fire?
A: heavens, earth, and wickedDo you agree with what Peter says here or not? I agree with him when he says that the wicked along with the heavens and earth are destroyed by fire.
Further, Isaiah even says that when God creates a new heavens and earth, that the old things will not be remembered or come to mind.
Isaiah 65:17
Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.Quote (Ed J @ June 08 2013,17:08) Hi Kerwin, The bishops bible used the Latin Vulgate,
The AKJV Bible used “The Majority Texts.”God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,The Textus Receptus has some parts that are back-translated from the Latin Vulgate. A 3rd edition did reference the Codex Bezae.
COntext context context, those scriptures say every thing and the wicked are destroyed, the Thessalonians is a specific word, more detail on the destruction of the wicked, this detail adds that the destruction is “Eternal Destruction” and means wicked continuly destroyed for eturnity. So you can not say it's incorrect unless you choose to say its a mistake in the bible. This is what Spurgon called the Downgrade” which has it's first symptom being the questioning of the reliability of the bible. So in the end, we are stuck, we either accept what it says, or we say the bible is incorrect.
Sadly, there is nothing to read between the lines, I wish there was, but if I do, i'm making the bible subject to my like and dislikes. grrrr it does make me sad and motovated to pray and witness!Welcome Palal,
I agree with the importance of context within a statement but it must always agree with ALL other scriptures relating to the topic. I also agree that scriptures are without error but the same cannot be said about translations. It is also critical that truth is more important than traditional teaching.As to the meaning of “aion” (YLT = age during, KJV = eternal) I believe it to mean “the length of time for the object being discussed” so for God… eternal, for smoke rising… until the items consumed, for the wicked… until their sins have been paid for, then they perish (cease to exist).
God portraying for all both justice and love.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (palal @ June 09 2013,07:32) COntext context context, those scriptures say every thing and the wicked are destroyed, the Thessalonians is a specific word, more detail on the destruction of the wicked, this detail adds that the destruction is “Eternal Destruction” and means wicked continuly destroyed for eturnity. So you can not say it's incorrect unless you choose to say its a mistake in the bible. This is what Spurgon called the Downgrade” which has it's first symptom being the questioning of the reliability of the bible. So in the end, we are stuck, we either accept what it says, or we say the bible is incorrect. Sadly, there is nothing to read between the lines, I wish there was, but if I do, i'm making the bible subject to my like and dislikes. grrrr it does make me sad and motovated to pray and witness!
palal,Their are two destruction, the first of the body and that is not age-during, the second of both the body and the soul and that is age-during. Did not Jesus testify of this when he spoke of not fearing those who cause the first destruction but instead fear him the causes the second destruction.
Out of curiosity what definition of destroy are you using?
WHat I find most interesting, ansd a clue to it's truth is the deliberate use of destruction, which is a word indicating start with an end with a word meaning time with no end. You cant be destroyed for ever. Looking to other scripture to change the clear meaning is not hermeneutical . Clear scripture trumps un clear, the ones in Peter say destruction with fire, what kind? Thessalonians clarifies that it's eternal destruction.
Eternal destruction is like saying eternal death, without the hope of being resurrected for a second chance. It does not mean that one is being continuously destroyed and suffering each time, it simply means that the results of the destruction, eternal death are for eternity, the one to be destroyed is finished for good.
Some Christians truly belief that eternal destruction is not “enough” and they try to reason that away with “God is just”. They are not perfected in love.
ahhh nope, it's eternal destruction not eternal death, destruction is a process while death is a state. We are stuck with it, thats what God says and as said the only way out is contradict the bible it's self. There are rules to understanding the bible.:(
Quote (palal @ June 09 2013,10:40) ahhh nope, it's eternal destruction not eternal death, destruction is a process while death is a state. We are stuck with it, thats what God says and as said the only way out is contradict the bible it's self. There are rules to understanding the bible.:(
palal,Matthew 10:28
King James Version (KJV)28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
What is your definition of destroy?
Destroy =ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire 2. To tear down or break up; demolish.3. To do away with; put an end to. My understanding is it has a start point and an end point. Thats quite clear. The scary part is it is linked with “eternal” giving us a dichotomy, how can destruction with beginning end be eternal. Occums razor applies, the is no hidden meaning, it means what it says “eternal destruction” Is there a reason why cant you accept it?
Quote (palal @ June 09 2013,13:02) Destroy =ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire 2. To tear down or break up; demolish.3. To do away with; put an end to. My understanding is it has a start point and an end point. Thats quite clear. The scary part is it is linked with “eternal” giving us a dichotomy, how can destruction with beginning end be eternal. Occums razor applies, the is no hidden meaning, it means what it says “eternal destruction” Is there a reason why cant you accept it?
palal,Jesus said God has the power to destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna. As you pointed out that means “ruin completely” or the like. The English destruction can mean either what you say or “the state or fact of being destroyed”. The online Merriam-Websters will instruct you in this use of the word “destruction”.
I continuously test teachings as I develop faith, even those I hold to.
Quote (palal @ June 09 2013,21:02) Is there a reason why cant you accept it?
We not accepting it? If you mean that destruction is eternal life in torture and never arriving at the point of destruction, then of course we are not going to accept that because that is the opposite meaning.I mean it is pretty easy to understand that never actually being destroyed is not destruction, just as never actually dying is not death. This is pretty basic stuff.
Look at how scripture uses the word destruction in other contexts that we likely agree upon.
1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.I mean if you would have us believe that destruction means an eternal process of never actually being destroyed, then the above scriptures is saying that God will deliver some to Satan so that their flesh will eternally be ruined but never destroyed, so their spirit can be saved in the Day of the Lord. So let's take a double take on that.
Satan has the flesh of some forever ruining it but never arriving at destruction, while their spirit is with the Lord and saved. Now that is a weird doctrine is it not. But you have to arrive at that, if that is your unswayed meaning of destruction.
I doubt very much that you believe your own interpretation of destruction in that verse. So clearly from your own point of view, you are not being consistent and changing the goal posts depending on the doctrine. (Double minded.)
2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.And tell me how destruction that never actually happens for eternity is SWIFT destruction. You argue very very very slow and scripture says swift. I see a contradiction even in that small point.
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