- This topic has 732 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 3 months, 2 weeks ago by
.
- Posts
You said:
God will do as he sees fit, and we should not merely accept it but glorify it one way or the other.
Yes that is true. And we have scripture that teaches us about the destiny of the righteous and fate of the wicked. So we can glimpse God’s plan, his judgement, mercy, and love, by reading scripture.
Scripture says that the wicked will be destroyed. When we read that same word regarding other things, it still means destroyed in they way that most understand that word. Yet when it comes to wicked men, somehow the meaning is changed to being more akin to being preserved so that one will suffer forever and ever, fully conscious, and obviously kept alive by God’s Spirit because nothing else gives life.
But we know that God who is a Spirit is the God of the living, not the dead. If God kept the wicked alive to suffer fully conscious for all eternity, then wouldn’t that mean that he is the God of the dead too.What part of man does God save? He saves our soul. He also gives us a new body. And we get the Spirit of God continuously, (eternal life).
What is it that the wicked lose? They lose their soul. Mark 8:36:
What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?
Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Philippians 3:19
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.Thanks for this teaching.
What I see and understand is that when we accept Jesus, we accept the gift of eternal life from God. If we do not accept what Jesus did by his death, we do not accept his salvation, nor His free gift of eternal life. If we don’t accept his gift, we don’t have life – AT ALL! We are “mortal” beings, until the point where we accept what Jesus did, and His salvation by dying for our sins. Then we have become “immortal” beings, and have eternal life, but not before this point in time.
Even John 3:16 states: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
It seems very clear here, where we get our eternal life. I was also thinking, that since we are talking about our soul (mind, will, emotions) here, which is what makes who we are as who we are, that is what will perish, and die the SECOND DEATH.
If the physical body dies, our soul and spirit remain together, and goes either to hell or heaven in this present age, but are incapable of being separated.
If, at the end of the age, one is judged to be “wicked”, then that person, soul and spirit, will be cast into the Lake of Fire, away from the life-giving presence of Jehovah-God. With this eternal separation from God, (just as if you separate the spirit from our earthly physical body, our physical body will die), so therefore, if the spirit man within us is separated from God, the spirit that God created for each of us, will also die, and therefore, our soul would also die. Most likely, from a sadness so great, it would overwhelm our spirit and soul, and then whatever was left, would be consumed in the fires of the Lake of Fire.
Yes, that is a merciful God. I can understand now all the more why God states that He desires that none would perish, but to inherit eternal life, through what God, the creator of all, orchestrated to occur for each of His created beings to do, and that was to choose life, through His Son, Jesus.
Many teach of hell as the separation from God. Is God in Satan? in his demons? Do they care? Wickedness does not know God nor does it want to and that is why it hates God. Evil beings strive only for their own lusts and self gratification and whether or not God is involved means nothing to them. Men have their own wills (as much as God allows) just as the angels, men can hate God just as much as those angels who have fallen away. Hell is torment and not just torment from being separated from God (if it were at all possible). People who attest to this understanding of God is looking at it from a very human point of view. We don’t like to think that God would put us through torture for our wrongs. We don’t like to think that even a single sin committed may actually deserve such a fate. But we can’t grasp how bad disobedience to God really is even in the smallest infraction. Christ said, “If thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. I emphasize the latter part. You couple that with Revelations 20:14 “And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any were not found in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.” Now the first death didn’t mean total death. So why do we think the second death does? Especially when death is put into the lake of fire being destroyed before those condemned are. Those who enter afterwords will enter a continual death, a continual destruction, where their worm dieth not. God gave us a path to avoid such a future. Why do we downplay the consequences of disobedience? And who are we to judge that this is too much and not fair? This just emphasizes Yehowah’s grace and love that we have been given a way out from what we deserve. That is to fall on and be one with the Messiah Yehoshua (Jesus) the Lord.
Hello everyone,
I have chanced on this website last year and visited it since a few times. Many discussions reveal a genuine interest of diverse participants. And there sure are good things coming from the dialogues.
Alas, there being hardly anyone having the Spirit of Truth or the requisite broad, deep knowledge and understanding, the talks often stray in various directions leaving us rather more uncertain by diferring view and ideas, if not confused and more disoriented (although we may not see it).
Do I speak like it is but ME who knows? [As opposed to others or even you ..?] Well, I speak that of which I have received more than others, by His unsurpassed Grace. And, that which I do not know, I also know and also will say.A brother of mine in Christ had written a few posts here, but concluded similarly. Plus, the posts quickly disappear in the vast realm of ideas and confrontations of all kinds…
And yet I would like to help those who may be called by Him to become the candidates of Life …Yes, this is a difficult field. Very difficult. So difficult that no one can come to the Truth of God or understand it except that God lead him. And it is a long, trying journey.
So I have always given up and never wrote anything. Why, it would take thousand of pages and in the end help no one. Sure, there are good thoughts, good questions raised herein, but one wrong thing skews the whole picture …
As an example, let me state next, in reference to the above discussion on Hell …1. No, there is no Hell, never was, whether temporary or eternal, and never shall be.
Proof: “Hell” is an incorrect translation of the word “hades” (greek) or “sheol” (heb.)which both mean the place (or ‘abode’, ‘realm’)of the dead. So this place, and not some ‘hell’, is going to be destroyed, meaning obliterated, cancelled, deleted .., in the apocalyptic ‘lake of fire’. Why, of course, it will be no longer needed as there will be no death either to furnish it with new dead ‘souls'(or people, if you wish). So, figuratively, the two go hand in hand into the lake burning with brimstone and fire to be eliminated, done away with (in reality, they are not ‘something’ that can burn).2. Re the first comment above stating that “when we accept Jesus, we accept the gift of eternal life from God.”
Again, not so. We have to be more accurate with words. By accepting (i. e. believing in) Jesus, we are not being offered eternal life as yet. (Remember, He must accept us, too, and that is only the beginning. And that does not go without saying!, as the saying goes.) So we cannot accept the Life (or reject it)no less automatically as part of our accepting Jesus. Only some of us will be “offered” life at the last judgment, and it will be Jesus who will ‘give it (offer it) to whom he wants to give it’, to His elect ones, i.e. [And no, no one of those will decline this his “offer”. Why, of course.]3. There is, in the above, also an uncertainty regarding the terms “soul” and “spirit” (and “body” vs. “new body”) although this should be considered one of the key concepts to explore and understand clearly when dealing with us, humans, our destiny, and the respective references in Bible passages …. But this cannot be answered here via a few words …
4. Anyone wants to know more? If so, how can we go about it, how to get it organized? I may be able to point the way … Or maybe you will decide to open a door .. In fact, we are presently considering to resurrect our own website we started more than 10 years ago. Maybe some of you want or need to take another step … Let me hear from you at [email protected]. God bless.
My reply to Anastas…
What has really struck me the hardest is that even John 3:16 states a choice, either “perish” or “life”. Perishing doesn’t give the thought of eternal punishment. Plus, reviewing John 3:16, Jesus says that by accepting what He did, you can receive “eternal life”.
This clearly implies, (if that is possible), that one does NOT have eternal life prior to accepting Jesus as your savior. (By the way, what are we being “saved” from? Perishing in the Lake of Fire).
So, if one does not have eternal life to start with, there surely is a Second Death, which is the Lake of Fire.
Satan and the angels that followed Lucifer, were already created as eternally existent. God created the Lake of Fire for punishment for Satan and the angels that rebelled against God, NOT for mankind.
So, if a wicked man/woman refuses the free gift of salvation, he has also chosen to refuse to have eternal life. If one chooses to refuse life, than one has chosen to perish, and be thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end of the age, where their soul will “perish”. This is truly sad, but God will not allow such a soul, with free will, to enter heaven. To me, once again, this seems that justice is carried out, and God is merciful, and will not allow a soul to be tormented forever and ever for sin he committed in this short life. God cannot overrule a soul’s will and MAKE them love Him. Since that is their choice, He will separate that soul from His presence, and away from His presence, (since they already had to bow their knee to Jesus and admit who He is), they know their choice, and it is pure rebellion! For that reason, God will treat that soul the same as Satan. The only difference is, Satan is an eternal being. The soul of man, never earned eternal life, and therefore, will die, second death, and cease to exist, and be burnt up in the Lake of Fire.
Thanks for your reply and words of wisdom.
I would further like to add that Adam and Eve were barred from the Tree of Life by Cherubim with flaming sword. The reason was that if man ate of that tree (after they sinned), they would live forever as sinners. Obviousness God spared mankind that fate and obviously, man does not have eternal existence by default.
(Genesis 3:21-24)Just a followup to what I wrote just a bit ago…
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(I believe the “Death” referred to in the previous line MUST be the Second Death).You see, we are mortal, until we choose life, which equals immortality. The Book of Life, that we all want our names in, tells us that those who do not get their names in it, get the Second Death.
When we are born, we are mortal. When we are born again, we have chosen immortality, getting our names in the Book of Life.
Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed;
God commands us right here, in His Law, to “CHOOSE LIFE”! Make good choices, and that one is to choose life.
I pray that people that read this post, and this teaching, have and “ear to hear” what the scriptures are truly trying to tell us.
t8 says:
February 20, 2014 at 11:59 pmThanks for your reply and words of wisdom.
I would further like to add that Adam and Eve were barred from the Tree of Life by Cherubim with flaming sword. The reason was that if man ate of that tree (after they sinned), they would live forever as sinners. Obviousness God spared mankind that fate and obviously, man does not have eternal existence by default.
(Genesis 3:21-24)I wish to add to t8’s comment…
What was missed here was that if man had eaten of the Tree of Life, and sinned, he would have had eternal life, and God would NOT be able to destroy their soul in the Lake of Fire!
That is why now the Tree of Life is in heaven. When those who have accepted what Jesus did for us on the cross, we have earned the right to eat of that Tree. Those that do not accept Jesus, do NOT have access to the Tree of Life, and cannot eat from it.
What this means is that IF man had been allowed to eat of the Tree of Life in their sinful nature, God COULD NOT destroy their souls in the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire was created to punish Satan and the angels that rebelled against God Almighty. Satan and the angels were created as eternal beings. They will be punished for all eternity in the Lake of Fire. We all have heard it taught that God never intends for “us” to go there, but it was prepared for Satan. So, remember, IF we were made as eternal beings, we would be punished eternally too!
God, in His mercy, did not desire for any man to be punished eternally, and did not allow man to become immortal until we accepted eternal life by accepting what His Son did for us on the cross of Calvary.
Do not get me wrong I do not believe man has eternal life by default. A man will live as long as God wishes him to. If Adam and Eve did not sin they would surely be living to this day. I understand the logic you are using from the language that was spoken. “Eternal life” is forever. If one suffers for eternity then they are living forever in “eternal life”. But following the Lord promises eternal life so then those who did not can’t have life where they go. The same points are used and are understood very well. However, they are not scriptural.
How can we determine what is justice? How can we say to God that eternal punishment is too harsh a penalty? Can a wicked man know true justice or the ways of God? No, because God’s ways are far above man’s ways.
Matt 25:41-46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me. And these shall go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into eternal life.The same place the devil goes so will the wicked for eternal punishment. Now you may say that eternal punishment is simply being dead forever but scripture says differently.
Mark 9:47-48
And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell; where their WORM DIETH NOT, and the fire is not quenched.Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING CONTEMPT.Can someone who is simply destroyed and gone feel shame? Express contempt? This is written alongside the term “everlasting life.” To our definition of life both are still alive but it is unwise to always use simple definitions to contain the meanings of scriptures. Life in this context is not exactly life how we may understand it. We know this because “Their worm dieth not”. Whether they are dying continuously forever or whatever, we know that they won’t die.
Revelations 14:9-11
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT GOETH UP FOREVER AND EVER; AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.Now if these men will be condemned for eternal torment, why would not the evil men of all the generations beforehand? Does the world not belong to Satan? 2Corinthians 4:4 Do they not follow him and serve him? I will tell you that they will indeed punish in the same way for they have already received the mark.
I will not continue debating this for it serves no profit. I have given scripture and can assure you there are many more verses that support eternal punishment for those who do not accept Christ.
My only wish is to simply appeal to the Spirit in you. The natural “feeling” of the scriptures points to an eternal punishment for the unrighteous. Reading the scriptures naturally will place this feeling in you. It is only when you don’t like what it “feels” like when you start looking for what you want to hear.
A couple of things Anastas.
“ETERNAL PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into eternal life.”
Surely these are opposites. The opposite of life is death and we are talking about new life (second life) and second death.
Also you mention a place where the worm dieth not. You understand the word ‘death’ here, but when the wicked perish in the Second Death, it is somehow different?
I would like to suggest that the punishment is eternal, but that doesn’t necessary equate to being alive to experience that punishment.
I believe that it was God’s mercy that he spared us from existing forever by default. This allowed God to make it a choice for us and of course the righteous would make that right choice and the wicked would not. Thus sparing unnecessary eternal torture which any righteous person would not be uncaring about.
Just something to think about.Dear Leo S.
You spent years reading the Bible and thinking about its issues. And you have made a good headway. Yet there is more to learn, to receive, to arrive at a more accurate knowledge, faith, at an absolute certainty when it comes to the key issues…,
I wish I could face you guys (I am thinking of T8 and Anastas, who are very visible) face to face to share so many things, to learn .. because to accomplish it via the written word is hardly possible. (And yes, I want to seek out those lead by His Spirit to possibly join together to face the Last Days ahead. The likelihood that anyone is close is next to none. But I am in Lousville, KY. How about you?)
Now, at least 2 comments to the above exchanges (see also my last post 2 or 3 days ago, re Eternal Hell?)1. The English language is often a problem besides the difficulty of Biblical passages. The “eternal” punishment, if the latter coincides with a ‘destruction’, or annihilation, is a one-time event that stays (or the results of which stay) with the punished forever and not a continuous process of “keeping on punishing”. In other words, it will never be reversed. The condition of ‘being destroyed’, in fact, “not being at all” will persist unlike our first death in the flesh which leaves the issue still semi-open for the Last Judgment.
2. God loves us, even “perfectly”, you say? Well, where in the Bible does He say He loves Leo S? or John or T8? The Bible says God loved David … but us? .. To love us He would first have to know us. And He does not. We just want to believe, He does, pretend (wishful thinking). However, truly, if He knew us, He would not like us, much less love us, no less the way we pretend it to be the case. Alas. And that is why He does not even want to know us. I would not want to, if I were Him. Wit hfew exdeptions, I would not want to know myself, if I were Him.
And then, we ourselves cannot hurt somebody we love. How could He if He loved us? Is God any worse than us?
God (of course by and through His Son)generally knows only those He writes down in His Book of Life. Those who follow and belong to His Son. All others are dead to Him. (And yes, that is most of us whether we want it or not.) But to love somebody, God would have to first know him more intimitely via more frequent encounters and closer knowledge, relationship, communication, and association, same as it is the case among us humans. …
Now, John 3:16 does say “God so loved the World …” But are you or me the “world”? No. So let us be careful. We can be easily rather presumptuous saying God loves US…(meaning, of course, Not “Them”)! Meanwhile, not all of us even know the true and living God, in fact few of us do, regardless what we care to think or profess. And those known to God are even fewer in numbers. How can God love me, when He Has no knowledge of my existence, of my name, of my anything? (Oh no, God does not know “Everything”, although, the Bible does say, ‘God knows all things’, are we perhaps “things” … ? etc. And He does not need to know and does not want to know everything. Why should He? So the proper interpretation and understanding are crucial.)
A propos, we ‘know’ God more but which of us can say he truly loves Him? Why, for us it is all but impossible to love somebody we cannot see, hear, speak to, or touch.
(Sorry, but I can’t help being very sober when it comes to God.) jnCorrect.
Read my other recent comments. There is no Hell, never was. It is just a wrong translation from Greek / Hebrew. Those in “hell” are in fact in ‘hades'(greek)or ‘sheol'(hebrew) which is an abstract place (in the center of the Earth? however, spirits ‘dwell’ or sojurn out of our time and our physical, geographic space … so only God knows) of the dead spirits. And it is very calm there, no cold or heat, not wet or dry … nothing but death. And if they suffered, they would not know of it, being dead. That is what death means. See ecclesiastes … jn
What about these verses? How do you explain these? This is words that Jesus spoke, and it seems very clear, and was not covered in the text above…
This is referring to the Parable of the Talents:
Mat 25:30 And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
I need an explanation for these verses, because these contradict everything else.
To who it may concern:
I have tried for a week and with many times to have my name on your mailing list, and each time, failed. Can you assist me>?
Thank you!
Richard Beaulac
March 1, 2014
PhilippinesWhat mailing list? We do not have one. You can register for the site and follow any topic when comments are made.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
If I have life and the reward of God is eternal life, then that means I will live eternally which by implication means that by default man does not live eternally, rather it is a gift.
It would stand to reason then that if sinners are punished by not inheriting eternal life, then what they get is not eternal life.
So non-eternal life is the same as death, destruction, or to perish. And to be in that state or non-state forever. In other words, no chance of life later on. No recreation. Decision is final.
It is written that we should not fear God because man can kill the body and God can kill both the body and the soul. Thus if we understand that death of our body is destruction of our body by perishing in the ground, then why not the soul of man too.
One could argue that the body is raised even for the wicked and they will stand before the righteous judge and give an account. However, the Second Death is aptly named and we know it is final, (there is no Third Death). In other words, both the body and soul of a man will not be raised to life ever again. It is final destruction, eternal destruction.Mat 25:30 And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
If a man is thrown into outer darkness, then where does it say that they will be alive forever. Even a natural death by fire would for example lead to gnashing of death because of the pain of dying. But that doesn’t imply either that you feel that pain for eternity. If it did, then that would really mean eternal life in fire.
Further, I was myself given a vision of Outer Darkness and felt what it was like. It is here if you are interested.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
