- This topic has 4,343 replies, 85 voices, and was last updated 8 months, 3 weeks ago by
.
- Posts
Hi Jodi,
You:
God made David a prophet, God gave David promises, his son would die, but his flesh would not see decay and he would be resurrected to LIFE. I know of no scripture that speaks of the resurrection representing a different resurrection than one to LIFE receiving an immortal body. You have seriously created one weird doctrine. Show me one scripture where the word resurrection is not used to represent being raised to LIFE again as Jesus was raised to life again? Once again, we are given the account of Pentecost and in it there is not a single world about dead people being resurrected with a spirit, the Spirit came to men who were alive at the time, and we are DIRECTLY TOLD the PURPOSE of receiving the Spirit, it was so some could be made prophets, some healers, some to speak in tongues, some apostles..etc. Paul was an apostle and he died in hope that his mortal body would be swallowed up to LIFE, and as an apostle he tells us directly that David has not received the promise and he won’t apart from him, they will receive it togetherMe:
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
2 Tim 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
Me: The promise of the spirit was to be baptized with the spirit. To be baptized with the spirit is to receive eternal life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
New American Standard Bible
1 Cor 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.Me: This doesn’t mean that Christ did not have a body. God gives every seed a body.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, (at this time) shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you
2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Me: We are focusing on whether someone can be alive outside of his body at death. 2 Cor 12:2-4 says yes.
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:… We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Me: “made without hands” refers to made without human effort.
Hi Jodi,
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Me: This first is central and of upmost importance in understanding when the spiritual resurrect takes place. I has shown where “wrath” had to be Christ’s longsuffering and crucifixion. It couldn’t be his judgment when he comes back. His are already with him then before his “wrath” and judgment upon the earth, not after. In light of the other scriptures, Job is Clearly and spiritually resurrected from the death around Pentecost.Hi Jodi,
Please reconcile 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16-17 with 2 Cor 12:2-3, Phil 1:22 and 2 Cor 5:8 and show no contradictions. then I would like to discuss this with you. Taking all the scripture that pertains to the subject we are addressing is how we understand the bible. You have not really even given cursory attention to 2 Cor 12:2-3, Phil 1:22 and 2 Cor 5 1-2,8. Show me the above scripture in relationship to what you believe, not say that you need them not because you have reconcile the scriptures which you believe are true and not these.
I have constantly tried to get you to address this, but you have avoided 2 Cor 12:2-3, Phil 1:22 and 2 Cor 5:8 like the plague. You come back later, after a lapse of time, and do not address this. Maybe you think we have forgotten about it?
Hi Jodi,
I see you on line below. Please do not repost your heresy again. I will not answer them. If you can use the above scripture, then ok, give it a shot.
TC you called me a liar saying I never responded to your reconciliation question, not only did I respond but you are even seen responded back to me right after.
HERE is one,
YOU: You need to reconcile Romans 6:4, Gal 5:24, 2 Cor 12:1 2 Cor 5:4, 6-9, John 5:25, John 11:23 with 1 Thes 4:13-16, which you have not done.
TC,
You are not finding hidden truth in scripture when you take a line out of context and have it mean something that it does not mean, it is especially not the truth when it so greatly CONTRADICTS other passages. TC people are BLIND to the truth, when they are blind they create superstitions, when they are blind they invent their own understanding to a verse or verses, thinking that they are wise when they are but fools, then they call it “hidden truth”.
Truth is hidden from the BLIND from the ignorant, from fools, otherwise it is plainly seen. The problem often times is that people have been told lies, they have been given snip-its of passages out of context and told that it means something it does not, and they must come out of false doctrine.
You gave 2 Corinthians 12 and then said,
“a. Man caught up into heaven with a body
b. Man caught up into heaven without a body.A man caught up into heaven without a body occurs after Pentecost after death. Death (Heb 9:27) occurs for some before Christ returns and for some when Christ returns (those alive at that time).”
ME: I say that 2 Corinthians 12 has nothing to do with a man going to be in paradise, but a man having a vision where he receives “unspeakable words”.
YOU Respond by saying:Nothing about Pentecost here but elsewhere about where I have shown you above.
You are not making sense. Are you NOW saying that 2 Corinthians 12 does not mean what you thought it meant?
You: Please reconcile 1 Thes 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52 with 2 Cor 12:1-4 and 2 Cor 5:1-4, You have not done this.”
Me: Is your problem in the fact I gave 1 Corinthians 12:1-7 and not just 1-4, and now the passage doesn’t fit into your doctrine? What are you trying to say talking about line upon line? We can take one line from the bible and have it mean whatever we want, and find another line out of context and make it fit with the other we took out of context, you didn’t even do that you took 4 lines and tried to make it fit with your doctrine. Most are blind to what the NT says because they do not apply the OT to it, as did the so called “early church fathers”, instead they applied their love for Greek beliefs and philosophies. I dispute what people say often because they ignore the surrounding text of the chapter, they ignore what the chapter is saying and say they are pulling out hidden truth. They miss the entire message of the author, they miss the truth of the word of God, because they are searching for hidden meanings, and what they often create is just an absolute distraction from the truth that is actually being told.
Nothing needs to be reconciled with the passages you gave.
1 Corinthians 15:52:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The below passage has nothing to do with Christ’s return when those that are dead wake to eternal life.
2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2 Cor 5:For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
I have spoken about 2 Corinthians 5 extensively. The verses are clear if you apply Paul’s words with Paul’s words. Romans 7 in particular makes it clear. Paul despised his own mortal body, he desired to have an immortal body. He knew that if he died and his body decayed (dissolved) he would rise from the dead receiving a heavenly eternal body becoming a heavenly man. He wanted to be CLOTHED with an immortal BODY. He felt naked and ashamed in his mortal body, he knew that the law was spiritual but he was carnal sold in sin. He saw himself as a wretched man as that which he knew was good he could not do. He was repentant and saw the law as good and desired to follow it perfectly, but he knew he was unable until he was delivered from a body of death and received a BODY of life that could no longer tempt him. Paul does not feel at home in his mortal body, he is not comfortable in it he loathes it, if he felt comfortable he would be separated from God enjoying his sins feeling right at home in his body. The BODY in which Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 5 is a MORTAL body that he is confident will be swallowed up into life. Knowing Paul’s words throughout his writings we know that Paul never speaks of needing to be without a body in order to be present with the lord, he desires to be CLOTHED with an immortal BODY, one that is free from sin and temptation that does not in away separate him from God’s will. One day he will be absent from a mortal body, as that body will be swallowed up into life. One mortal body made into an immortal body, not having NO BODY at all.
Paul goes onto speak of the judgment seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5, of which Daniel speaks of,
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Paul had faith that if he died and his body decayed he would WAKE from the DEAD unto eternal life with an immortal BODY, and he tells us directly from 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4 that this occurs at Christ’s return when the trumpet sounds.
ANOTHER,
To ALL,
1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16-17 with 2 Cor 12:2-3, Phil 1:22 and 2 Cor 5:8 are passages that do not create contradiction.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Paul teaches that when Christ returns the dead in Christ shall come to life rising with an incorruptible body and those who are his still alive at his return will also receive an incorruptible body.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
These VERSES speak nothing about the DEAD nor the resurrection. In CONTEXT of the chapter, these verses are speaking of a person who was alive receiving unspeakable words from God during a vision. Paul was uncertain that this person who he knew received this revelation in the body or was it an out of body experience, Paul said only God knew. This does not seem of importance to Paul as he goes on to speak about the revelation he received himself, and how he was uncertain on whether or not he wanted to share truth as he did not want men to exalt him.
THERE is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that needs to be reconciled between what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4 with 2 Corinthians 12, as Paul is speaking on different subject matters, and therefore their is NO CONTRADICTION.
Philippians 2:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
Philippians 2 dose apply to the subject matter of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4. We know from the later chapters Paul’s hope was in the resurrection, he knew that when he died he would rise again to meet Christ in the air having no longer a mortal body but one that is incorruptible. When you DIE your next conscious moment is either meeting Christ and knowing him as he is because you are also as he is, or you arise to judgement. In Phillippians 2 Paul is so confident in receiving the promise of the resurrection and eternal life, to him death was seen as gain. Paul knew however, at that time he spoke the plan for him was to not die yet, but to continue with brethren “in the furtherance and joy of faith.”
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
These verses also apply to the same subject matter that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 15 and Thess 4, as well as Philippians 2. Paul is saying that he knows that if he dies and his body decays, God has promised to CLOTH him with an immortal body, of which Paul tells us occurs at the last trumpet when Christ returns and the dead in Christ are raised incorruptible.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Paul never speaks about having hope in NOT having a BODY, or needing to be without a body in order to be present with the lord. Paul’s desire was to be absent from a MORTAL body being clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Paul’s hope was to not have a mortal body anymore but to have an immortal incorruptible eternal BODY.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Paul speaks often in passages of his hope and his faith, he believed that as Jesus was raised from the dead, resurrected into glory and eternal life, Paul knew that he shall also receive the same resurrection.
We have 2 things here of which many deny,
#1 that Christ received his eternal body of glory upon his rising from the dead
#2 that Paul’s desire was to be WITH a BODY, one where mortality is swallowed up into life.
When the word of God says that those in Christ rise from the dead and receive their glory to become as Christ is, and the word of God also tells us that we will rise with a body as the same body that Christ rose with, then the flesh and bones body that Christ rose with is in FACT according to the WORD of GOD the BODY that Christ still now has.
ANOTHER,
Good Morning TC,
The essences according to YOU:
B1
Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.In Essence: Saints can be in the third heaven (paradise) with God, with or without a body. That is the percept that we need to focus on.
ME: NO absolutely not, the passage above teaches us that men who are alive can receive visions and revelations in those visions they enter paradise and receive unspeakable truths.
MEN in a VISION can be in paradise in order to see and hear things. What Paul did not know, that God knew, was if when you are in a vision where you have been brought to paradise if it is received in the body or is it an out of body experience. To try and then make the passage say that in ESSENCE as you put it, that it ALSO must mean that Saints can be in paradise with God with or without a body, is absolutely ludicrous. Paul did not know that A VISION that was RECEIVED by a person who was alive, if it occurred in the body or was it an out of body experience PERIOD.
You:B2
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
In Essence: When Christ returns, our bodies to be received are in heaven, not changed here on earthB3
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.You: When we are absent from the body we are with the Lord. This occurs at our deaths, whether or not at Christ’s return.
ME: Nice job TC of taking a passage out of context to make it fit with your doctrine. You forgot the beginning and the end of Paul’s words, and you also interpret that verse as if you are fully ignorant of Paul’s other words. The BODY that Paul is speaking of above is the MORTAL body that tempts man and separates him from God. Paul never spoke anywhere about being present with God you must have NO BODY at all. Paul was speaking of his current mortal body. Paul speaks in 1 Thess 4 directly telling us that the DEAD rise and MEET the Lord in the air and are given an immortal body. “will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” Paul says the VERY opposite of what you say TC.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
YOU: The alive of the dust at Christ’s return must die first before they receive new bodies.
ME: NOPE, the mystery that we are given by Paul, is that not all men will die, those at Christ’s return will NOT, they will be changed. It is appointed for all men to die once, as we are all born MORTALS, but the mystery that Paul gives us is that those at Christ’s return who are his that are still alive do not end up dying, they end up going from mortal to immortal.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
1 Thess 4:15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
ME:TC you are just making stuff up. Paul directly tells us in 2 places the opposite of what you are saying. Likewise Paul tells us directly that he desired to be CLOTHED with an imperishable body, of which he tells us directly that occurs at Christ’s return, not to go be with Christ and God in heaven without having a body at all when a person dies. Paul knew that if his mortal body died and dissolved he had a new body stored for him with God, and his faith as we are told directly by him is that he will receive an imperishable body at Christ’s return.
1 thess 4 would have been the perfect opportunity for Paul to share that which you say TC, but he DOES NOT. He says at the end of the chapter, “18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.”
You TC, are encouraging the belief of falsehood, that when we die we go be with the lord in heaven without a body. Paul’s faith and hope was to BE CLOTHED with an IMPERISHABLE BODY and that is when he KNEW he was going to MEET CHRIST, and he tells us directly that occurs at Christ’s second coming.
Another, which I posted on two threads,
Hi TC,
Yes it is unfruitful to go over the same thing over and over, you ask for reconciliation according to your false interpretation of what you call some true “hidden message”. For me there is nothing that needs to be reconciled there exists no contradiction when each of those verses you give are understood within the context of the chapter they are given in, as well as with other passages that also speak upon the same topics. Can you get that? Can you get how I cannot take your false doctrine and apply it to other scriptures, and then explain the contradiction it creates? What I CAN do and have done is take the verses you gave and understand them NOT according to YOU, but according to what the message is through the context they exist in.
In October and in November I have responded to you, I am NOT a LIAR.
Hi TC,
On his return towards earth the Lord Jesus will waken and call his brothers and sisters to meet with him in the air where they will enjoy the wedding feast. Meanwhile the earth and the remaining inhabitants will be suffering through the great tribulation, the wrath of God.
Hi Jodi,
You need to reconcile Romans 6:4, 2 Cor 12:2-4, Gal 5:24, 2 Cor 5:8 and Phil 1:22-25 Below with your thoughts that the dead do not awaken both spiritually and bodily until Christ returns. You have not done this.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Me: Our old man is crucified with Christ. If we follow the spirit, we are not of the body of sin and death but of the new body of life that shall never die like our minds and heart of Christ shall never die.
John 5:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live
Hi Jodi,
2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
You: I say that 2 Corinthians 12 has nothing to do with a man going to be in paradise, but a man having a vision where he receives “unspeakable words”…. but he knew he was unable until he was delivered from a body of death and received a BODY of life that could no longer tempt him.
Me: We are focusing on whether one can depart from the body and be alive, not all the other stuff like humility.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
We have crucified the flesh already. It is dead. We will receive new bodies from heaven that will never die. The new bodies will shine like the sun and stars, not be a flesh and bone one.
You: 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16-17 with 2 Cor 12:2-3, Phil 1:22 and 2 Cor 5:8 are passages that do not create contradiction.
Me: You have not incorporated one set into the other by just saying they do not contradict without proving it does not make it so.
Hi Jodi,
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall (appear) first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Me: To make the two scriptures above fit with each other, The dead in Christ are those that have risen from the dead spiritually first, then they appear first because they are already in heaven spiritually at that time and receive their new bodies there. Otherwise the two groups of scriptures contradict. The dead in Christ are already in heaven spiritually. Those alive at the time of his second coming must die first, and then resurrect spiritually and then receive their new bodies.
Phil 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
Me: Please reconcile 1 Thes 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52 with 2 Cor 12:1-4 and 2 Cor 5:1-4, You have not done this.”
You: Nothing needs to be reconciled with the passages you gave.
Me: So you have not reconciled them.
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
You: These verses also apply to the same subject matter that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 15 and Thess 4, as well as Philippians 2. Paul is saying that he knows that if he dies and his body decays, God has promised to CLOTH him with an immortal body, of which Paul tells us occurs at the last trumpet when Christ returns and the dead in Christ are raised incorruptible.
Me: Absolutely not: Yes, Paul receives a new body at his appearance. But it is not the body that has been crucified and is in the ground. It is the body in heaven that will be like his is. Read further.
Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Me: Phil 1:21-22 is speaking in the present tense. If Paul was to choose, he would chose to depart from his body and be with the Lord. The other alternative would be to remain in the flesh and be of benefit to the Philippians.
You have not reconciled the scriptures, not to any reasonable degree. Further, I do not wish further to discuss this matter with you. Believe what you want. I do not intent to respond to you anymore on this matter.
Jodi…..You have explained it clearly, for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. It is impossible to open the eyes of those whom God has sent a deluding spirit into, inorder for them to believe a LIE. You have answered every question TC has put to you, both clearly and accurately, now he does not want to descuss it any longer, he has come to see he could not decieve you, good job Jodi, You, Me, and Nick, make up a three cord rope here, hard to break, keep up the good work Sis.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Thank you Gene!
Reading Hebrews 11 again this morning we see that the message is about faith and the things hoped for.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Paul speaks in many places about faith and what he had hope for.
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
It is interesting Gene to see how TC takes passages and twists them, he sees things in passages that just do not exist. Paul gives examples of those before Christ existed in how they had faith in God, and faith is worthy of righteousness and worthy to receive the promise of eternal life. Paul and the “us” he refers to are those that came at the time of Christ or after Christ, they too are counted as worthy of receiving the promise through faith in God through believing in Christ, the Son of God the perfect man. For the purpose of Christ as Peter tells us is to bring us into FAITH in God. Hebrews 11 contains prophets where we know that God gave them the ability to see the future with Christ in it, the anointed man that would follow God’s will perfectly, like that of no other man. These people of faith before Christ and those upon and after Christ was on earth will ALL receive the promise together. As Paul tells us in other passages, they receive it on the day the trumpet is sounded and the Son of man comes among the clouds, they will be caught up with the Lord and mortality will be swallowed up to life, and they will see him as he is, for they will be as he is, and they will forever be with Christ.
Water Baptism is the Immersion in the Mikveh in Judaism. Just some thoughts..
Interesting to note that immersion in the mikveh is ( just observations I am not dictating what has to be..)
- not performed by anyone..but by the one needing cleansing. It is witnessed by at least one person, as they have to attest to the top of the head going completely under..for ritual cleansing and three witnesses for conversion.
- in Judaism mikveh for conversion is preceded by a blessing thanking G-d for the commandment of ritual dipping; a conversion to Judaism is only considered valid for men if after circumcision weeks prior, the candidate follows through with Ritual immersion. So in short a convert is not considered Jewish until after the immersion. Hence Acts 2:38
- For Jewish person who have become impure or a woman after her cycle receives purification by immersion. Among many groups men mikveh once a day, some only once a week, before Shabbat and all before the Day of Atonement.
I think more than likely “Johns Baptism” was performed following his preaching and encouragement to repent.. he more than likely did not perform the immersion physically but he or his disciples witnessed the total immersion of those coming forward.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
