Is baptism needed for salvation?

[Truthcomber]

Gene:

You:

YOU HAVEN’T PRODUCE ANY SCRIPTURE THAT SHOWS JESUS IS NOW A SPIRIT BEING, of anykind, EVEN IF THE FULLNESS OF GOD DWELLS “IN” HIM. He does have a life giving spirit in him, but he is a human being and will return as such, Just as he said ” for when THE SON OF MAN comes will he find FAITH ON the earth.” Many other scriptures also back this up. Why do you chose to ignore so many scriptures that plainly show the resurection is a Physical resurection, you simply ignore those clear spoken scriptures, treat them as if they are not even in our scriptures.

Me: Wrong again!

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. The spirit is the most important thing.  For it gives life to the body.   I did not say Christ did not have a body.  I said he had the same body he died with before he was resurrected from the dead.  And he had the same body before he had ascended into heaven.  But now, after he had ascended into heaven,  he has a glorified body of the spirit 

You:

Like this one, Rom 8:23….”and not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wittness, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY”. Notice you don’t see the redemption of our spirit there now do you?, but the REDEMPTION OF OUR “BODY”. Jesus ‘ BODY was what was resurrected, not his spirit, a resurection is a physical thing, spirit have no need of a resurection from the dead because they don’t die, they are simply in a sleep state until a body is resurected for them to dwell in.

Me: wrong again! Christ’s  body was resurrected on earth, and later ascendant into heaven. His spirit, the holy spirit left him at death.  But our minds in the holy spirit ascend into heaven first where we receive new bodies at the time of the first resurrection.  Those alive at Christ’s return must die first, and then their minds in the holy spirit are resurrected into heaven. They receive their new bodies last.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ (in the body of Christ or the dead in Christ), and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Me Again we resurrect into heaven is spiritually first for the members of the church, but not for Christ which had ascended into heaven with both body and spirit (mind in the spirit) .

 

[Truthcomber]

Gene:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Me: The seed of the devil is in our flesh. It is the cause of our physical deaths.  It will not stand.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 823 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Me: Now what is the “redemption” of our bodies?

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/8-23.htm

Me: Click on the link above. Then click on 629 above “redemption”.

Definition: a release effected by payment of ransom
Usage: release effected by payment of ransom; redemption, deliverance.

Me: Christ paid for our sins that we could be released from our bodies of death and receive new ones

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (present bodies) inherit incorruption (our new bodies)

Me: simple as that. So now 1 Cor 15:50 and Romans 8:23 do not contradict each other.

 

[Truthcomber]

Gene:

You: Why not try to get that straight in you mind first before jumping all around trying to find something that fits you own personal dogmas?

Me: You do not know how to study God’s word and glean from it. I have shown it to you.  You reject it and thus reject him.

Once again,
Isa 28:9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Me: This is how we learn scripture, something foreign to you and Jodi, no matter how much I present it. We do not know God’s word all at once, but grow it. We do not learn scripture by concentrating on just one chapter, but gathering bits and pieces through out the bible and putting them together. This is something you have scoff at and remain in your vanity and ignorance.

This is also how God blinds one from understanding scripture.  He cannot put the pieces together.

Isa 28:13  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

 

 

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi and Gene,

 

Please reconcile 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16-17 with Cor 12:2-3, Phil 1:22 and 2 Cor 5:8 and show no contradictions. then I would like to discuss this with you. Taking all the scripture that pertains to the subject we are addressing is how we understand the bible.  You have not really even given cursory  attention to Cor 12:2-3, Phil 1:22 and 2 Cor 5:8.   

[Truthcomber]

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the (deliverance) from our body.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (present bodies) inherit incorruption (our new bodies)

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised imortal, and we shall be changed (one thing to cease and another take its place) 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/1_corinthians/15-52.htm

Me: Click on the link above. Then click on 826a to the right of “imperishable”.

Definition
undecaying, i.e. imperishable
NASB Translation
immortal (1), imperishable (4), imperishable quality (1), incorruptible (1).

Then click on 236 to the right of “we will be changed”

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 236: ἀλλάσσω

ἀλλάσσω: future ἀλλάζω; 1 aorist ἤλλαξα; 2 future passive ἀλλαγήσομαι; (ἄλλος); (from Aeschylus down); to change: to cause one thing to cease and another to take its place, τά ἔθη, Acts 6:14; τήν φωνήν to vary the voice, i. e., to speak in a different manner according to the different conditions of minds, to adapt the matter and form of discourse to mental moods, to treat them now severely, now gently, Galatians 4:20 (but see Meyer at the passage), to exchange one thing for another: τί ἐν τίνι, Romans 1:23 (בְּ הֵמִיר Psalm 105:20 (); the Greeks say ἀλλάσσειν τί τίνος (cf. Winers Grammar, 206 (194), 388 (363) Vaughan on Romans, the passage cited)), to transform: 1 Corinthians 15:51; Hebrews 1:12. (Compare: ἀπαλλάσσω, διαλλάσσω, καταλλάσσω, ἀποκαταλλάσσω, μεταλλάσσω, συναλλάσσω.)

Me: There, everything lines up with the below verse:

New American Standard Bible
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Me: All the words in the parenthesis are mind. Alternative definitions to words were done in recent previous posts and reflected here.

[GeneBalthrop]

TC…..you said all the words in parented are your even if you completely change word and meanings, we do agree with you on that. As Jodi told you you can make the bible say anything If you switch meanings around. You rely on your own ability to get your understandings, we rely on the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH”,  we have recieved from God to reveal the truth to us, you on the other hand go by trinitarian translated Greek text and even change them to fit your dogmas.

You……The word of God has become  unto you, precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line here a little and there a little.  But you fail to read the rest of that, “THAT THEY GO AND FALL BACKWARD, AND BE BROKEN, AND SNARED AND TAKEN”. Isa 28:13

Haven’t you read where Jesus said, “you shall all be taught by God.”,  and where it says, “you have no need ot  a teacher,  the spirit of truth that abides “in” you shall teach you all things. John 2: 27,  John 16:13, John 15:26, 1 John 4:6,

TC, now why don’t you reconcile those scriptures for us , instead of altering the meanings of simple straight forward scriptures to meet you renditions of what you think they mean, by placing you own words or someone elses in them, and forcing the text to meet your conceived perceptions of line upon line, anyone can change text doing what you do with the scriptures, that’s why we have hundreds of different bibles and thousands of different denominations, just a sea of mass confusion. IMO “unless the LORD shall build the house the wear builders build in vain”.

peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

You:Christ was the only one that had his body converted directly into a spirit one when he had ascended into heaven. We inherit like bodies as his. We become adopted sons of God through bonding with his heart and of being of his body.”

Me: You have not provided one shred of evidence that Jesus’s body CHANGED upon ascending to sit at God’s right hand. Which is because you cannot as there is no evidence, no word of God that says such in the bible, you and others deny the word of God that is given and then device your own speculations.

Not only are we told directly that the dead who sleep the sleep of death will arise to LIFE being resurrected AS Jesus was resurrected receiving a body of power, glory, that is incorruptible, but we are also given in the Gospels the account of when Jesus ascended to heaven and there is NO word of what you say TC. All passages speak of his RESURRECTION and the glory he received at that TIME, there is NOTHING about him receiving or changing into anything when he went to sit at God’s right hand.

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God — 2 which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings — 3 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord; 5 through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name;

The Good News that was given to the prophets of which we read in Isaiah, is that a human servant of the flesh of David, was marked out Son of God in power ACCORDING to the Spirit by the RISING again from the dead. This is good news because God promised us eternal life and we receive forgiveness of sins through Christ, and if we have faith we will rise also from the dead and be like him.

Acts 17:31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.’

Romans 6:4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again; 6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin; 7 for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin. 8 And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship; 

TC it is ALL about what Christ became when he ROSE from the DEAD, he was set free from temptation having received an INCORRUPTIBLE BODY, where death no longer has lordship.

I Corinthians 15 speaks of RISING from the dead as Christ rose from the dead, and Paul tells us what BODY it is we receive upon rising as Jesus received,

42 So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; 43 it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;

BIBLICAL FACT, the WORD OF GOD, Jesus ROSE from the dead with a SPIRITUAL BODY, it is spiritual as Paul speaks in Romans 6, there is no more temptation, no more lordship to the fear of death. The Natural Weak Corruptible body is changed UPON RISING from the dead to a Spiritual Glorious Incorruptible BODY.

Romans 7: For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

When Jesus rose from the dead he no longer had a body that tempted him, he did not have to keep fighting against the will of man to serve the flesh in order to live, he was set free to serve the law without any temptation as he received an incorruptible body. This is what Paul speaks to us in detail about, how he desired this body that Jesus WAS RAISED WITH, because Paul sought to serve God fully and not his weak mortal flesh.

Acts 2:30 a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne, 31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses; 33 at the right hand then of God having been exalted — also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father — he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear;

It is ALL about his RISE from the DEAD TC, there exists NO ACCOUNT of what you say, you speak AGAINST the word of God. I could give many more examples and have already previously.

[Truthcomber]

Gene

You: you said all the words in parented are your even if you completely change word and meanings, we do agree with you on that. As Jodi told you you can make the bible say anything If you switch meanings around. You rely on your own ability to get your understandings, we rely on the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH”, we have recieved from God to reveal the truth to us, you on the other hand go by trinitarian translated Greek text and even change them to fit your dogmas.

Me: I have every right spiritually to use the alternative definitions.   Most of what I have presented are opposite of the trinity beliefs while you adhere to conventional bible teaching which is greatly trinitarian influenced.

[Truthcomber]

Gene:

You: now why don’t you reconcile those scriptures for us , instead of altering the meanings of simple straight forward scriptures to meet you renditions of what you think they mean, by placing you own words or someone elses in them, and forcing the text to meet your conceived perceptions of line upon line, anyone can change text doing what you do with the scriptures, that’s why we have hundreds of different bibles and thousands of different denominations, just a sea of mass confusion. IMO “unless the LORD shall build the house the wear builders build in vain”..

Me: So all the words translated are correct. I have used all the alternative definitions of the Greek and Hebrew to make them fit. No. I have reconciled much, you just do not understand. You said anyone can change the translations and make them fit. You can’t. because you have not used an alternative definition one time. I have not changed the word of God. I have used alternative definitions of the word of God which I have felt are correct. Everything fits. The more scriptures that fit without contradicting each other, the more credible the evidence.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi:

You:

You have not provided one shred of evidence that Jesus’s body CHANGED upon ascending to sit at God’s right hand. Which is because you cannot as there is no evidence, no word of God that says such in the bible, you and others deny the word of God that is given and then device your own speculations.

Me:

I have produced realms of evidence. You just deny them as if they were not there. For example:

John 17:5 now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Although I believe that this passage is an example  that God calls things that are not as if they were (Rom 4:17), like him being “crucified before the beginning of the worlds” (Rev 13:8) we are seeking the truth in the precept  of when he was glorified. This is: “glorify thou me with thine own self”. This means Christ was glorified after he had ascended into heaven in the presence of his father.  I showed examples in passages where his face shined like the sun and his legs were like brass.  But you still believe he is just flesh and bones which makes him less than the angels.  You really do not know who the son of God is.

 

The rest of your false teachings we went over many times and I wish not to waste my precious time again explaining them to you.

[Truthcomber]

Hey Jodi and Gene,
Please do not address anything more to me on this subject for I will not answer you. I believe that you and your toady Gene have got it mostly wrong and do not want to wallow around with you in your swill.

[Truthcomber]

Except if you want to discuss the below:

Please reconcile 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16-17 with 2 Cor 12:2-3, Phil 1:22 and 2 Cor 5:8 and show no contradictions. then I would like to discuss this with you. Taking all the scripture that pertains to the subject we are addressing is how we understand the bible. You have not really even given cursory attention to 2 Cor 12:2-3, Phil 1:22 and 2 Cor 5:8.

I have constantly tried to get you to address this, but you have avoided  2 Cor 12:2-3, Phil 1:22 and 2 Cor 5:8 as if they do not exits.  Please stick to the subject and try not to snow us with irrelevant arguments which is you MO.  These  are  a distraction and a smoke screen.

[GeneBalthrop]

TC….what the point, you are unable to even take direct scriptures and believe them without changing them to fit your personal dogmas. It you can’t even understand simple clear scriptures without changing them,  whats the point ?

 

Jodi and I have both descussed yours with you, and posted to you clear scriptures but you have fail to descuss the scriptures we have given you.  You simply ignore them, you haven’t come here to descuss anything, you have come here to push your own form of religion on us all. Won’t work on anyone who has the spirit of truth in them,they can’t be decieved by false doctrines.

Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,

If you have the SPIRIT OF TRUTH why do you offer us your own silly ideas?

Seven spirits, spirit is intellect, body is soul, etc all come from the pit.

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

 

John 17:5 now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

You: This is: “glorify thou me with thine own self”. This means Christ was glorified after he had ascended into heaven in the presence of his father.

 

ME: I see that you did not use a translation that actually uses the word “presence”. But I want to note here that the world “presence” is not found in the Greek.

 

The Greek word in the verse is Seautou meaning “thyself” “thee”

 

YLT John 17: 5 And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

 

The Greek word for presence is Enopion which is not found in this verse, but some translators have chosen to add that word.

 

For Jesus to be glorified by the Father with the Father does not equate to him receiving glory when he went to heaven to sit at His right hand.

 

The word “with” Greek para, also is rendered of 51, with 42, from 24,

 

So the verse could be rendered as “of thyself” or “of thee” or “from thyself” or “from thee”.

 

What we are TOLD in this verse is that this glory was with God before the world was.

 

TC I read the passage with knowledge of prophecy, I read the passages knowing that Jesus KNEW prophecy that he knew he was to fulfill.

 

Jesus certainly knew of God’s promise since before the beginning of time. Jesus certainly knew the promise given to David about him, that his flesh would not see decay but eternal life.

 

Titus 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

 

Psalms 16: 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

 

Acts 13: 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no cor

ruption.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

 

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

 

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is RAISED in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is RAISED in power:

 

Romans 8: 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

1 Corinthians 15: 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

Luke 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 7 Saying,The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. …24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. 28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would ha

ve gone further.

TC it is plainly written, Jesus SUFFERED and then entered his glory upon RISING from the dead, his flesh was not allowed to see decay he was quickened (made alive) given the glory of eternal life, RAISED in glory, incorruptible, with power.

 

Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them. 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

Acts 2: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

WHY was it not possible he should be holden to death?

 

Hebrews 2: 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

Jesus ROSE from the dead receiving eternal life because he was not deserving of death in the first place. Because his flesh lived without sin, and he had been perfected through suffering God would not allow this Holy One’s flesh to see decay but see eternal life. This flesh is no longer tempted, he has been given a spiritual body where there is nothing that separates him from God.

 

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them,Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man (anthropos- human) shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

BELIEVE the CLEAR WORD of GOD,

 

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, ACCORDING TO the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

I will post here what I posted on the other thread,

Yes it is unfruitful to go over the same thing over and over, you ask for reconciliation according to your false interpretation of what you call some true “hidden message”. For me there is nothing that needs to be reconciled there exists no contradiction when each of those verses you give are understood within the context of the chapter they are given in, as well as with other passages that also speak upon the same topics. Can you get that? Can you get how I cannot take your false doctrine and apply it to other scriptures, and then explain the contradiction it creates? What I CAN do and have done is take the verses you gave and understand them NOT according to YOU, but according to what the message is through the context they exist in.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…..if you going to say I said something please say it right, I said the body with the spirit of life in it was a living soul, so does scripture, Gen 2:7.

Scripture also said there are seven spirit of God, Rev 3:1, Rev 4:5,  now if you believe God who is spirit as Jesus said, was in him, then how was he in him, if not by his seven spirits. Rev 4:5,  Please tell us “O’ wise one,  what that means to you.

As far as spirits being “types’ and “kinds” of intellects, tell us what are these,  God said concerning the son of Bezaleel, I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship. Exo 31:3, and,  Luk 2:41….and the child grew, and waxed strong in ‘Spirit’, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Isa 11:2 …..and the spirit of (or) from the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.

So Nick whats the spirit of wisdom, if not a “kind” of  intelligent understanding.  I realize you believe these spirits are  all complete little “beings” or angels of somekind going around jumping in and out of people. But scripture does not agree with you.

Heb 12:23, “the spirits of men made perfect” what that mean to you Nick?, does that not apply to our minds? Perhaps your silly ideas are from the pit Nick, have you ever thought of that? You seem to only be able to accuse people, but you offer little or no scriptural proof of anything,  why not start by telling us how you come up with the concept that the seven spirits of God are seven angels instead of seven spirits as scripture says,  that would be a good start, and if  you are going to quote please have the decency to quote me right OK?

Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

 

 

 

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,

Thank you for reinforcing that your ideas are yours and are not from the Spirit of truth.

[Jodi]

To ALL,

1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16-17 with 2 Cor 12:2-3, Phil 1:22 and 2 Cor 5:8 are passages that do not create contradiction.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul teaches that when Christ returns the dead in Christ shall come to life rising with an incorruptible body and those who are his still alive at his return will also receive an incorruptible body.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

These VERSES speak nothing about the DEAD nor the resurrection. In CONTEXT of the chapter, these verses are speaking of a person who was alive receiving unspeakable words from God during a vision. Paul was uncertain that this person who he knew received this revelation in the body or was it an out of body experience, Paul said only God knew. This does not seem of importance to Paul as he goes on to speak about the revelation he received himself, and how he was uncertain on whether or not he wanted to share truth as he did not want men to exalt him.

THERE is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that needs to be reconciled between what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4 with 2 Corinthians 12, as Paul is speaking on different subject matters, and therefore their is NO CONTRADICTION.

Philippians 2:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

Philippians 2 dose apply to the subject matter of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4. We know from the later chapters Paul’s hope was in the resurrection, he knew that when he died he would rise again to meet Christ in the air having no longer a mortal body but one that is incorruptible. When you DIE your next conscious moment is either meeting Christ and knowing him as he is because you are also as he is, or you arise to judgement. In Phillippians 2 Paul is so confident in receiving the promise of the resurrection and eternal life, to him death was seen as gain. Paul knew however, at that time he spoke the plan for him was to not die yet, but to continue with brethren “in the furtherance and joy of faith.” 

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

These verses also apply to the same subject matter that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 15 and Thess 4, as well as Philippians 2. Paul is saying that he knows that if he dies and his body decays, God has promised to CLOTH him with an immortal body, of which Paul tells us occurs at the last trumpet when Christ returns and the dead in Christ are raised incorruptible.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 

Paul never speaks about having hope in NOT having a BODY, or needing to be without a body in order to be present with the lord. Paul’s desire was to be absent from a MORTAL body being clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Paul’s hope was to not have a mortal body anymore but to have an immortal incorruptible eternal BODY. 

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul speaks often in passages of his hope and his faith, he believed that as Jesus was raised from the dead, resurrected into glory and eternal life, Paul knew that he shall also receive the same resurrection.

We have 2 things here of which many deny,

#1 that Christ received his eternal body of glory upon his rising from the dead

#2 that Paul’s desire was to be WITH a BODY, one where mortality is swallowed up into life.

When the word of God says that those in Christ rise from the dead and receive their glory to become as Christ is, and the word of God also tells us that we will rise with a body as the same body that Christ rose with, then the flesh and bones body that Christ rose with is in FACT according to the WORD of GOD the BODY that Christ still now has. 

 

[Truthcomber]

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John 17:5 now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Me This is: “glorify thou me with thine own self”. This means Christ was glorified after he had ascended into heaven in the presence of his father.

You: I see that you did not use a translation that actually uses the word “presence”. But I want to note here that the world “presence” is not found in the Greek.

Me: The below verse shows the Messiah’s in the presence of His Father.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear

Me: This verse shows Christ at the right hand of God exalted. This shows Christ being in the presence of his father exalted or glorified. This should be enough to establish your error.

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