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Hi Jodi,
1 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Me: Paul is speaking about his vision. A vision is an apparition that represents reality. The whole point I want to make here, and which you do not seem to comprehend, is that you can be with the Lord in spirit without a body or in spirit with body. So when are we first with the Lord, are we with a body or with a body and spirit? This is what we are addressing. All the other stuff about humility is fine and good and is what the passage in 1 Cor 12:1-4 is mainly addressing. But we are addressing only a small part of this passage that fits in with the overall scope of the resurrection of the spirit. So don’t be a scatter brain.
2 Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:…8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be “present” with the Lord.
Me: Paul desires to be absent from his fleshly body and present with the Lord in his mind and spirit in the then present. We acquire our spirit bodies at the first resurrection. We are with the Lord when we die in our bodies. If we are alive when he comes, we must die first. Notice “we” in verse 8 doesn’t consider the body.
It is as simple as that. All this about him speaking in the third person about himself seems to be true. He thus presents humility and glorifies the Lord instead. But that is not the point we are addressing. The point: Is there a resurrection of the spirit without the body before Christ returns? The answer is in the affirmative as I have shown by the scriptures above.Hi Nick,
Hi Nick,
You:
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God .Rom 8.14Me:
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
We are begotten of the holy spirit in our minds and grow. We cannot sin there. in our spirit minds.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Me: When we die, our bodies and our human spirits die. What is left is the holy spirit with the heart of Christ in our minds, now purely sons of God. Our bodies come later at the first resurrection. This is when all of our being is swallow up into life.
lol, I have no idea how those faces got into my last post!
TC,
You are not finding hidden truth in scripture when you take a line out of context and have it mean something that it does not mean, it is especially not the truth when it so greatly CONTRADICTS other passages. TC people are BLIND to the truth, when they are blind they create superstitions, when they are blind they invent their own understanding to a verse or verses, thinking that they are wise when they are but fools, then they call it “hidden truth”.
Truth is hidden from the BLIND from the ignorant, from fools, otherwise it is plainly seen. The problem often times is that people have been told lies, they have been given snip-its of passages out of context and told that it means something it does not, and they must come out of false doctrine.
You gave 2 Corinthians 12 and then said,
“a. Man caught up into heaven with a body
b. Man caught up into heaven without a body.A man caught up into heaven without a body occurs after Pentecost after death. Death (Heb 9:27) occurs for some before Christ returns and for some when Christ returns (those alive at that time).”
ME: I say that 2 Corinthians 12 has nothing to do with a man going to be in paradise, but a man having a vision where he receives “unspeakable words”.
YOU Respond by saying:Nothing about Pentecost here but elsewhere about where I have shown you above.
You are not making sense. Are you NOW saying that 2 Corinthians 12 does not mean what you thought it meant?
You: Please reconcile 1 Thes 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52 with 2 Cor 12:1-4 and 2 Cor 5:1-4, You have not done this.”
Me: Is your problem in the fact I gave 1 Corinthians 12:1-7 and not just 1-4, and now the passage doesn’t fit into your doctrine? What are you trying to say talking about line upon line? We can take one line from the bible and have it mean whatever we want, and find another line out of context and make it fit with the other we took out of context, you didn’t even do that you took 4 lines and tried to make it fit with your doctrine. Most are blind to what the NT says because they do not apply the OT to it, as did the so called “early church fathers”, instead they applied their love for Greek beliefs and philosophies. I dispute what people say often because they ignore the surrounding text of the chapter, they ignore what the chapter is saying and say they are pulling out hidden truth. They miss the entire message of the author, they miss the truth of the word of God, because they are searching for hidden meanings, and what they often create is just an absolute distraction from the truth that is actually being told.
Nothing needs to be reconciled with the passages you gave.
1 Corinthians 15:52:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The below passage has nothing to do with Christ’s return when those that are dead wake to eternal life.
2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2 Cor 5:For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
I have spoken about 2 Corinthians 5 extensively. The verses are clear if you apply Paul’s words with Paul’s words. Romans 7 in particular makes it clear. Paul despised his own mortal body, he desired to have an immortal body. He knew that if he died and his body decayed (dissolved) he would rise from the dead receiving a heavenly eternal body becoming a heavenly man. He wanted to be CLOTHED with an immortal BODY. He felt naked and ashamed in his mortal body, he knew that the law was spiritual but he was carnal sold in sin. He saw himself as a wretched man as that which he knew was good he could not do. He was repentant and saw the law as good and desired to follow it perfectly, but he knew he was unable until he was delivered from a body of death and received a BODY of life that could no longer tempt him. Paul does not feel at home in his mortal body, he is not comfortable in it he loathes it, if he felt comfortable he would be separated from God enjoying his sins feeling right at home in his body. The BODY in which Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 5 is a MORTAL body that he is confident will be swallowed up into life. Knowing Paul’s words throughout his writings we know that Paul never speaks of needing to be without a body in order to be present with the lord, he desires to be CLOTHED with an immortal BODY, one that is free from sin and temptation that does not in away separate him from God’s will. One day he will be absent from a mortal body, as that body will be swallowed up into life. One mortal body made into an immortal body, not having NO BODY at all.
Paul goes onto speak of the judgment seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5, of which Daniel speaks of,
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Paul had faith that if he died and his body decayed he would WAKE from the DEAD unto eternal life with an immortal BODY, and he tells us directly from 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4 that this occurs at Christ’s return when the trumpet sounds.
Hi TC,
You do not own truth.
And your reliance on personal interpretation is dangerous.
Scripture interprets scripture. 2 Cor 13.1
Hi Jodi,
No man hates his own body but he loves it and takes care of it.
Neither did Paul but he certainly preferred to be rid of it to be clothed from above.
Hi TC,
Ot would be unwise to claim we are already reborn in our minds.
If so the Spirit in Paul would not command that we be transformed in our minds.
Good Morning Nick,
You said, “No man hates his own body but he loves it and takes care of it.
Neither did Paul but he certainly preferred to be rid of it to be clothed from above.”
I NEVER used the word hate, I quoted Paul.
Man loves life sometimes, and sometimes he hates life because it is filled with pain and suffering. Man loves life for what he experiences in his body and he hates life likewise for the same reason. I love life when I can be in the Redwood forest hiking with my family enjoying God’s Creation, smelling the earth, seeing the earth. I also enjoy and am thankful for the picnic lunch that I eat and how it tastes and makes by body feel. I also enjoy the laughter I share with my family as we get silly hiking down the trail. I don’t like life so much like yesterday when I came to work to find out one of the families we serve woke up to find their 10 month old dead. Such makes me desire the day where there is no more death and the pain and suffering that goes along with it.
Nick, I SPOKE TRUTH, I spoke what PAUL SAID. “The law is spiritual but I am CARNAL sold under sin.” “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”
NICK, we are talking about SIN in the body, Paul wasn’t walking around sinning all the time, he was in fact doing many things that was pleasing to God. But he recognized that he did miss the mark at times and he didn’t want to feel shame anymore, he wanted the body that would no longer tempt him, this doesn’t mean that he did not enjoy or wasn’t thankful for the good things he received from God with his body.
Stick to the subject Nick.
What you have done in your response is change the subject and then apply that change to what I said as if I am in error. You are so crafty Nick, and thankfully I am not blind to your cunning devices.
Hi Jodi,
You confuse SINFUL ACTIONS with their source, SIN IN THE FLESH.
Paul was led by the Spirit of God and did not sin in the eyes of God.
But in his flesh dwelt sin, and he knew death would set him free.
Recognise the domain of darkness and be a little wiser.
Nick.. ..what Jodi is saying is right brother. We are all waiting for “the resurection, that will witness the ” REDEMPTION OF OUR “BODIES”. THE NEW BODIES WE RECIEVE AT THE RESURECTION. But those bodies the are from the same seed , but regenerated, just as a seed of grain, or wheat, or corn, the seed regenerates new exact same bodies they came from, NEW BODIES WITH THE SAME DNA, but we will be granted to eat from the “tree of life” and live for ever. IT’S not a matter of a different body, but what is sustaining it., (.the tree of life) so it never dies, it can not die,because of what is sustaining it.
If you understood GENESIS, you should have understood that. A seed alway produces after it’s own “kind” , it was created that way by GOD, so it not the kind, we need to be concerned with but what sustains us . Is it (The tree of life) that is, IN THE “MIDST OF THE GARDEN” of God, or not?
What scripture say mankind is changed to a different ‘kind”. Scripture say as we have born the ‘image’ of the earthly we shall also bear the image of the heavenly, but I see no change of the “KIND” mentioned there do you?
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Hi Gene,
The old body IS the seed.
The new body IS the plant that ensues.
The Seed IS NOT the plant that grows from it.
Hi Jodi,
Take responsibility for your deficient teachings.
Indeed you should be embarrassed when they are found to not align with all the scriptures.
Nick, where did I say the new body was the seed. No the seed is within the old body, it is it’s life source, just as a grain of wheat or corn’s life source is the seed. It will never create a different kind of plant. Neither will the life source in us produce a different kind of body. The seed produces the same “kind” of body, but if it has the tree of life, given to it, it can live forever.
Nick why do you keep wanting a completely different “KIND” OF BODY, why not a ” PERFECTED” human body. Do you think God made a mistake with the bodies he has given us?
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Hi Gene,
If you are still dependant on the life source you were born with then you future is very dim.
It will leave you at your death, just as the human spirit of Jesus left him on Calvary.
Unless you have been reborn from above all the rest is futile hot air.
Hi Jodi,
Rom 7.17
For now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me.
Rom 7.20
But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7.14
For we know that the law is spiritual but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
NICK…..No , but I think GOD IS PLEASED WITH WHAT HE HAS ALREADY MADE, NO NEED TO CHANGE MANKIND INTO A Completely, DIFFERENT CREATURE. As you think. I would say it is you who are limiting God, not me brother. You see I believe, my God is quiet able to perfect his human creation, and our example is Jesus. You on the other hand believe he must change man to another type of creature. I have tons of scripture back up, you have none, just your own speculations.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Hi Jodi,
I posted my replies on the wrong forum: “The ordinary Jesus Brigade” I guess I should repost it here
Hi Jodi,
Here is a summary of what I had presented prior. All words and phrases in the paragraphs are mine to emphasize or to show alternative definitions. The alternative definitions were presented in more detail in prior posts.
The essences according to you
A11 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
In Essence: Dead saints come to life again at the time that Christ returns. Dead bodies are raised incorruptible here on earth and the dead saints live. The alive saints at that time do not die, but their bodies are changed.
A2
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
In Essence: The dead saints come to life again at the seventh trump, not before. Then those alive here on earth do not die but have their bodies changed at that time.
The essences according to me:
B1
Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
In Essence: Saints can be in the third heaven (paradise) with God, with or without a body. That is the percept that we need to focus on.
B2
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
In Essence: When Christ returns, our bodies to be received are in heaven, not changed here on earth
B3
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Me: When we are absent from the present body we are with the Lord. This occurs at our physical deaths, whether or not at Christ’s return.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
me: The alive of the dust at Christ’s return must die first before they receive new bodies.
Hi Jodi,
Here is the reconciliation:
How do you reconcile A1 and A2 with B1, B2 and B3?
A1
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall (appear) incorruptible, and we shall be changed (we and not our bodies). We receive new bodies of the holy spirit and not of the human souls.
Versus:
B1 … 2 Cor 12:2-4 (whether in body)… (whether out of body)…caught up in the third heaven….paradise.
B3
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Me: When we are absent from the body or “out of body” we are with the Lord. This occurs at our deaths, whether or not at Christ’s return (Heb 9:27).
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Me: Being “out of body” in heaven means in heaven without a body. Thus corruption does not inherit incorruption. Our present corruptible bodies do not change. We must die to our present corruptible bodies first to receive a body in heaven at the first resurrection.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls (spirits or individuals in spirit) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Me: “rest” here does not mean in a state of death where we know nothing. “in body” means without a corruptible body. This has to mean the body that one gets after resurrecting spiritually when Christ comes back at the first resurrection. How come Paul doesn’t know if he is “in body” or “out of body”. It seems to be because he doesn’t know when Christ would be back when he would receive a new body. Would this be in his lifetime or after his death? He sees the vision of Paradise exclusive of whether he is there in spirit or in spirit and body.
Hi All,
Thus:
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and “we” shall be changed.Me: Who is “we”? The “we” has to be the whole church. “we” is our spiritual essence with or without our bodies. Our spiritual essence is our minds with the heart of Christ in the holy spirit. It is “we shall change” and not our bodies will change. We will change because we will inherit new bodies.
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (old bodies) inherit incorruption (new bodies).
Me: Our old corruptible bodies do not change into incorruptible bodies.
B2:
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
In Essence: When Christ returns, our bodies to be received are in heaven, not changed here on earth. A house made without hands or human effort through procreation.
A2
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (Gal 5:24) shall (appear) first:
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Me: This happens after these die physically first.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Me: Therefore the saints that had died to their bodies before the second coming of Christ appear first. Then those who die to their bodies at Christ’s return resurrect spiritually into the third heaven and then receive their new bodies. They appear second.
1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain (seed), it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain (seed) 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Me: We die of our mortal bodies and receive new bodies of this image. It will be a body of the seed of the holy spirit with eternal life and not of the spirit of the flesh and human spirit with temporal life of the flesh.
You need to reconcile 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16-17 with Cor 12:2-3, 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 2 Cor 5:8 as I have done and which you have not.
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