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Hi Jodi,
You:
John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Me:
Quote: “Beloved, now we are the sons of God”Now means at the present time or moment. We are not fully the sons of God now, but will be. We acquire new bodies at Christ’s coming.
Quote: “It doth not yet arrear what we shall be”
So we are called the sons of God before we acquire our new bodies.You:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest.
We shall be like Jesus, we will be born of God and unable to commit sin.Me:
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:Me: We have a choice, follow the holy spirit and not sin or follow the flesh. Christians have two minds, one of the flesh and one of the spirit.
You:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
In eternal life there exists no more bondage, no more fear, we are free from temptation, we are BORN of God no longer able to sin. There is nothing that draws us away to serving God’s will, no weak flesh, no carnal mind to fight against.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul was considered a Son of God because he was going to be raised from the dead given a body free of death. He will be born of God of water and of the Spirit when he rises from the dead, he will no longer SERVE his flesh, be a slave to it, be under the dominion of the law of sin.
He will no longer have a body born of BLOOD, Paul DIED with a body born of blood. He will rise being BORN again of water and of the Spirit.
John 4: 4 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall BE IN him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.Me:
1 Peter1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:…23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.Me: Who is the Word or spokesman of God? Is it not Christ? Are we not born again of the Word?
Rev 19:11…And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True…13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Me: The Messiah is the Word or spokesman.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (the Word) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Me: Click on the link below. Then click on 2532 above “and”.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm
Definition
and, even, also
and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, soSo in other words, John 3:5 could easily be written as so:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (the Word) even Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Me: The (the Word) in John 3:5 is my emphasis.
John 7:39 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly (heart) shall flow rivers of living water, 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet_____ because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?xid=0QJAHVSGFW6HY
THE MEANING OF JOHN 7:39When I was young, in my study of the Bible I was puzzled by John 7:39, which says, “But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet glorified.” Why does John 7:39 say that the Spirit was not yet? He is mentioned over and over again in the Old Testament. For years this verse bothered me. I could see that the Spirit was not yet had something to do with Jesus’ being glorified, but this was only a hint of what was implied.
One day when I was reading in Exodus 30, this verse in John became clear to me. I could see that prior to Exodus 30 the oil was there, but the anointing ointment “was not yet.”
Philippians 1:19 speaks of the “bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.” Was the Spirit of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament? No, for He “was not yet.” In the Old Testament there was the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jehovah. When Jesus was conceived, there was the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:20). The Spirit of Jesus Christ, however, “was not yet.” When the Lord spoke those words in John 7, prophesying that His disciples would receive the Spirit, He had not yet been crucified and resurrected. It was only after these two events—the death and resurrection of Christ—occurred, that these two principal spices could be added to the plain oil. How great was His death! How great was His resurrection! Nothing like them had ever happened before.Me: Thus born of the water is born of the spirit with the crucifixion and resurrection in it. Paul was born of “water” now, not at the coming of Christ. We are born of water which equates with being baptized of the holy spirit.
Hi Jodi,
Why would we have a body reserved in heaven already before we die if our present one’s will be transformed? Please answer.
You need desperately to reconcile Romans 6:4, Gal 5:24, 2 Cor 12:1 2 Cor 5:4, 6-9, John 5:25, John 11:23 with 1 Thes 4:13-16, which you have not done. On the surface they seem to contradict.
Let’s see how you do.Hi Jodi,
Psalm 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/8-5.htm
Me: Click on the link about. Then click on 430 above “than the angels”.
definition:
elohim: God, god
Original Word: אֱלהִים
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: elohim
Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem’)
Definition: God, godHeb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Me: So Christ was made a little lower than angels as a entity of the flesh and a little lower than God by his ascension into heaven.
Christ did not have the same kind of Body we have. He had a body like ours but a little lower than angels. He could transfigure himself (Matt 17:1-2) and walk through walls(John 20:19). . He is now a little lower than God with a much glorified body (Rev 21:22-23, Rev 22:16)). We will have bodies that are like his (1 John 3:2), not like our present ones (Rev 22:16). The bodies we have now are of the seed of the devil as our father and the seed of the woman as our humanity. Christ paid the penalty to be the second Adam of a different body. We cannot be forgiven of the heritage that Adam passed down to us. Only Christ’s death could pay that. We cannot be of the body we have, Christ’s death paid for that. We die with him and are resurrected with him when we are baptized with the spirit. We receive our glorified bodies later that are like his.
Truthcomber. ….Jesus told the thief this, “I TELL YOU THIS DAY, YOU “SHALL” BE WITH ME IN PARADISE, he was speaking of another day, not that very day, because Jesus did not go to praise that day, he went to his grave that day, hardly what anyone would call paradise. If you study with the decieved you will become decieved also, let the spirit teach you and you will see it clearly. There is no end of book that support every kind of false teaching imaginable , trust in the LORD GOD, and he alone will guide your mind by his SPIRIT, WHICH IS THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH. There are many seducers out there, but John told us this.
1John 2:27…..but the anointing which you have recieved of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but the same anointing teaches you “ALL” THINGS , and is TRUTH, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Gene,
The whole point of my argument was that “day” in Luke 32:42 does not necessarily mean a 24 hour day but means a short period of time that could be years. Now instead of addressing that issue, you come back and say that I say day means a literal day.
Hi Jodi,
The book of Acts shows that those who believed were baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.
Then hands were laid on to receive the Holy Spirit.
Nothing has changed despite the protestations of the rebellious.
Even demons believe.
Truthcomber. ….thats called switch and bait, arguments, the truth is, Jesus simply said, ” I am telling you this day, you shall be with me in paradise.” Simple as that, no need for deceptive arguments by the sleight of men. Thats the whole problem here, many have human conceived thelogies that throws all kinds of different spins and meanings to scriptures, even with the straight forward scriptures they twist to meet their on thelogies.
Why not just us the straight forward scriptures and make sure all the other scriptures a lines with them, example. Jesus said , JOHN 17:3….”and this is life eternal that they might know “YOU”, the “ONLY” TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU HAVE SENT.”, and again, scriptures like ” 1Ti 2:5….”For there is “ONE” GOD, AND “ONE” MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, “THE MAN” CHRIST JESUS.
These are solid scriptures and all teachings must aline with them, plus there are many other clearly written scriptures also, and if “all” teaching don’t alien with them, then they are not of the truth and are simply deceptive concepts of men who are not of the truth. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
You:
Truthcomber. ….thats called switch and bait, arguments, the truth is, Jesus simply said, ” I am telling you this day, you shall be with me in paradise.” Simple as that, no need for deceptive arguments by the sleight of men. Thats the whole problem here, many have human conceived thelogies that throws all kinds of different spins and meanings to scriptures, even with the straight forward scriptures they twist to meet their on thelogies.
Hypnotic Bait and Switch
Description: Stating several uncontroversially true statements in succession, followed by a claim that the arguer wants the audience to accept as true. This is a propaganda technique, but also a fallacy when the audience lends more credibility to the last claim because it was preceded by true statements. The negative can also be used in the same way.
This is a classic sales technique often referred to as, “getting the customer used to saying ‘yes’!”
Logical Forms:
A succession of uncontroversial true claims is made.
Therefore, claim X (which is controversial), is true.
A succession of uncontroversial false claims is made.
Therefore, claim X (which is controversial), is false.
Example #1:
Do you love your country?
Do you love your family?
Do you care about their wellbeing?
Then you would love Eatme ice-cream!
Example #2:
Is it right that such a small percentage of Americans control the vast majority of wealth?
Is it right that you have to work overtime just to make ends meet?
Is it right that you can’t even afford to leave the state for vacation?
Do you really want to vote for Reggie Lipshitz?
Explanation: As you read through the examples, you can see from where the word “hypnotic” comes. Your subconscious mind starts to take over, and it seems almost reactionary that you start chanting “yes” or “no” (as in the second example) while not really considering with what you are agreeing or disagreeing. These kinds of techniques work best in rallies where those doing the rallying count on you to act with emotion at the expense of your reason.
Exception: It’s an effective persuasion technique, so if you’re trying to convince your kids to stay off drugs, then manipulate away. However, if you are trying to get someone to buy a vacuum cleaner, then take your hypnotic bait and switch and shove it up your reusable, hypoallergenic, dust bag.
Tip: Become a human fallacy detector. Look for these kinds of techniques everywhere you go. As a result, your reasonable self will become conditioned to resist taking a back seat to emotional propaganda.
References:
This a logical fallacy frequently used on the Internet. No academic sources could be found.
Me: Gene, it is Bait ans Switch, not switch and bait which you have used which would not make sense. Try to understand what you are talking about.
You:
Why not just us the straight forward scriptures and make sure all the other scriptures a lines with them, example. Jesus said , JOHN 17:3….”and this is life eternal that they might know “YOU”, the “ONLY” TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU HAVE SENT.”, and again, scriptures like ” 1Ti 2:5….”For there is “ONE” GOD, AND “ONE” MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, “THE MAN” CHRIST JESUS.
Me: This is the “bait”.
These are solid scriptures and all teachings must aline with them, plus there are many other clearly written scriptures also, and if “all” teaching don’t alien with them, then they are not of the truth and are simply deceptive concepts of men who are not of the truth.
Me: This is the “switch”. Your implications are that your false statements are true. Don’t be a condescending hypocrite. Even, say, your conclusion “switch” where true, you cannot base it on obvious true statements and then say your statement is true. It may or may not be.
Gene:
New American Standard Bible
Luke 23:43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise (3857).”https://biblehub.com/luke/23-43.htm
Me: All of the translations for Luke 23:43 have the comma before “today” Apparently they all thought that the messiah had resurrected into heaven that very day that he had died.
5494.sémeron: today
Original Word: σήμερον
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: sémeron
Phonetic Spelling: (say’-mer-on)
Definition: today
Usage: today, now.New American Standard Bible
for He says, “AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU.” Behold, now is “THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,” behold, now is “THE DAY OF SALVATION “—Me: Look at the definition of today in Luke 23:43. It is “today, now”. Compare this with 2Cor 6:2, “now” is “THE DAY”. Christ was telling the thief on the cross that he would be with him in heaven around the time of his death and not the literal 24 hour day. To be specific, this was after Pentecost when the dead are baptized with the holy spirit (John 5:25).
Acts 1:4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me;
5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Me: The promise of the Holy spirit in verse 39 is the gift of the holy spirit in vs 38. This is to be baptized (die and resurrect with Christ) with the holy spirit.
Hebrew 11 is all about those in the past that had died before Pentecost and had not received the promise until Pentecost.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Gene:
2 Cor 12:1 (NKJV) It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago–whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows–such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man–whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows– 4 how he was caught up into Paradise (3857) and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
- paradeisos
Definition:
a park, a garden, a paradiseMe: This vision shows that one can be resurrected into heaven without a body before Christ returns at which time he is granted a body. Those who died before Christ returns are resurrected now into the third heaven. Those who are alive when Christ returns first must die physically then are resurrected spiritually into heaven. Then all are granted new bodies reserved in heaven for them. Notice in the vision here, the man is resurrected into paradise (3857)which is in the third heaven. This is the same paradise as in Luke 23:43 and Rev 2:6 below.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise (3857) of God
Revelation21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle (4633. skéné) of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
- skéné
dwellings (1), tabernacle (15), tabernacles (3), tents (1).
Me: You have to look at all the verses with paradise in them. The paradise of God is presently in the third heaven and will be here on earth. The tabernacle of God is Christ. He is not the temple of God until all his saints of this present church age together with the OT saints receive their bodies and are one temple with Christ.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Gene, you cannot quote Rev 21:3 only and deny the paradise of God is presently in the third heaven, and those that die in Christ will be there at there deaths.
Me: All those slain saints together with the rest of the saints who died in good stead are under the altar of God. Those alive in their present bodies at Christ’s coming die to their present physical bodies and resurrect to meet those with Christ. All receive new bodies liken unto Christ’s body and .form one temple.
1 Peter 2:5-9 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
New American Standard Bible
1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?Gene,
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (Romans 6:7-8) shall (appear) first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put (be clothed) on incorruption, and this mortal must put on (be clothed) immortality.
Me I believe that we must be changed, not our bodies must be changed. We are changed when we receive news bodies. We do not receive bodies in heaven as spirits. We receive new bodies before we return to earth with Christ. Every man is appointed to die permanently once and for all physically (Heb 9:27). The dead in Christ have died this death.
The above was a summary of what I went over more into dept before. I have reconciled the scriptures, even the ones seemingly to contradict each other. You have not
You,
Why not just us the straight forward scriptures and make sure all the other scriptures a lines with them, example. Jesus said , JOHN 17:3….”and this is life eternal that they might know “YOU”, the “ONLY” TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU HAVE SENT.”, and again, scriptures like ” 1Ti 2:5….”For there is “ONE” GOD, AND “ONE” MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, “THE MAN” CHRIST JESUS.
Me: You need to follow your own advice above.
I addressed all the seemingly contradictions, you and Jodi did not.
Please reconcile 1 Thes 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52 with 2 Cor 12:1-4 and 2 Cor 5:1-4, You have not done this.
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life…9 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I am in the Library using their computer. I need to do something on my computer some time this week to be able to post here again.
Hi All,
I am sorry that I rushed the last posts in the library, for I was under a time constraint. I would like to clarify a little bit.
2 Cor 12:1 (NKJV) It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago–whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows–such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man–whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows– 4 how he was caught up into Paradise (3857) and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
A Vision and Revelation:
:
a. Man caught up into heaven with a body
b. Man caught up into heaven without a body.Me: A man caught up into heaven without a body occurs after Pentecost after death. Death (Heb 9:27) occurs for some before Christ returns and for some when Christ returns (those alive at that time).
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall (appear) incorruptible, and we (who are alive) shall be changed.
Me: The “dead in Christ” shall appear with new bodies first. I have used the alternative definition and not “shall rise” to make the scriptures fit. Their spirits (minds) are in heaven and receive new bodies in heaven (2 Cor 5:1-2) that are incorruptible when Christ returns (Rev 6:9-11). Paul does not know whether the man he sees in the vision has received or has not received his new body in heaven yet. This is a vision. Paul just sees the paradise that the man sees. The man had died.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (Rom 6:4, 8; Col 2:20) shall appear first:
Me: The dead in Christ (those who have crucified their old body) in heaven shall receive new bodies first. These are those that have been baptized in the spirit. The parallel is that they resurrect fully from the dead spiritually at their physical deaths. They have risen to heaven in spirit before Christ returns. They come down with Christ first in the clouds and appear with him with their new bodies they received in heaven.
1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Me: The alive in their present bodies , when Christ returns, must die first (Heb 9:27). Then they receive their new bodies in the third heaven from God. After, they meet those that are with Christ in the clouds.
Hi TC,
No. Those alive in the Spirit now will not die when the Master returns.
They have already passed over from death to life.
Hi Nick,
You: No. Those alive in the Spirit now will not die when the Master returns.
They have already passed over from death to life.Me: They have passed from death as an initial step. They have received the earnest or pledge of the spirit.
New American Standard Bible
2 Cor 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.New American Standard Bible
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
New American Standard Bible
Matt 24:13 “But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.Me: We that hears God’s word and acts on it to the end will be saved.
1 Thes 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
Matt 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Me: This means those who extinguish the spirit will not be kings and priest of the first resurrection but will be judged by the fiery trail at the end of the millennium—the lake of fire. This is not a literal fire but a severe trail.
Hi Nick,
.You: No. Those alive in the Spirit now will not die when the Master returns.
Me: They will not die in mind and holy spirit, but their human bodies, spirits, and hearts will. They will receive new hearts and bodies.
Ezk 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain (seed), it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain (seed) 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Me: We die of our mortal bodies and receive new bodies of this image. It will be a body of the seed of the holy spirit with eternal life and not of the spirit of the flesh with temporal life.
Hi TC,
Yes the pledge is the initial investment of God in the Spirit in our earthly soil.
But those who ask, seek and knock, who obey the advice of 2 Peter 1 can become sons of God now.
But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God Jn 1.12
If we live by the Spirit, Let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal 5.25
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God .Rom 8.14
Hi TC,
You are MISSING a key point which leads you to a false doctrine, which your doctrine itself ignores clear scripture.
2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth😉 such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth😉 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
What is said here is that there is a man who received “unspeakable words” upon entering in the 3rd heaven during a vision/revelation and Paul is uncertain that the vision was received in the body or outside of the body. Some believe that Paul is speaking of himself as he says, “lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations.” 14 years ago would have been the time that Paul had already been anointed an apostle, as he is believed to have spoken to the Corinthians some 16 years or so after his conversion. Paul said I shall tell the truth but now I forbear, as he did not want to be exalted above measure through the abundance of revelation that he had received.
TC, one thing that this passage for certain does not say is that some man went to paradise receiving eternal life, or anything else of the sort, he received “unspeakable words” and such was received through a vision/revelation. During the vision did God literally transport the man’s spirit into heaven to hear it, or did he hear it on earth within the body, that is what Paul did not know, but God knew.
WHAT IS NOT SAID is anything about Pentecost, or someone going to stay in paradise. What is said that this person RECEIVED “unspeakable words” and Paul did not know if the person received it in his vision in the body or out of the body.
You: TC, one thing that this passage for certain does not say is that some man went to paradise receiving eternal life, or anything else of the sort, he received “unspeakable words” and such was received through a vision/revelation. During the vision did God literally transport the man’s spirit into heaven to hear it, or did he hear it on earth within the body, that is what Paul did not know, but God knew. WHAT IS NOT SAID is anything about Pentecost, or someone going to stay in paradise. What is said that this person RECEIVED “unspeakable words” and Paul did not know if the person received it in his vision in the body or out of the body.
Me: Nothing about Pentecost here but elsewhere about where I have shown you above. Paradise is specifically listed in Luke 23:43 and Rev 2:7. I have shown you many verses how Pentecost ties in, you just don’t understand.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Me: This is how you should learn God’s word, but you seem to have tunnel vision with no lateral vision.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Me: This is how God hides the truth from them he does not wish to show it to.
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