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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,21:03) Mike……..I just never thought abput it that way before , but it makes perfect sense to me
It makes perfect sense that both Jesus Christ AND the Holy Spirit are two different “sons of God”?Are you sure?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,21:03) Did you not read the post i posted about the Lake water taken for a Lake and transported to other parts of the world , the water would still be the same water as in the lake. So it is with the Sprits of God.
Okay. If the Spirit of God is in Phoenix, and the Spirit of God is in New York, it is still the same Spirit of God. I get that. But what in the world does that have to do with that Spirit being the Son of God?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,21:03) Now as to the Scriptures about Levi tithing before he was born being in the Loin of Abraham. Here it is.
9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.Gene, the words “one might even say” tell you that Paul is speaking metaphorically, right? So NO, Levi wasn't LITERALLY existing as a person inside of Abraham when Abraham paid the tenth to Melchizedek.
Now, just because that is obviously a metaphorical statement, does it mean John 17:5 and all the other scriptures about the pre-existence of Jesus are also metaphorical? Of course not. If we are going to call ALL scriptures metaphorical just because one scripture is, where would that leave us?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,21:03) i believe the son is and alway was in God Father because the same preexisting Spirt
But are you talking about JESUS? Or are you talking about this OTHER son of God, the Holy Spirit?Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,21:56) Mike, 1. Wisdom is born in the sense of 'brought forth' throughout scripture.
2. Wisdom is not created out of nothing, anywhere in scripture.
3. Wisdom has to be within someone before it can be brought forth, otherwise it is just a good guess.
1. Give me a scripture.2. Anything that is “born” is also a “creation”, Kathi.
3. This is just you saying things. And the thing you said doesn't even make sense to me.
Kathi, you are just doing your same old, same old. You are trying to distinguish between being “born” and being “created”. You do it with Jesus. And now you're trying to do it with the wisdom in Prov 8 because you know that also refers to Jesus………….. and you simply don't WANT Jesus to have been created.
You fault NETNotes, but that is just because it irks you that they also can see the obvious fact that anything that is born is also created. That's why they say the wording of “given birth” and “born” argue FOR the translation of “create” in verse 22.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,22:09) The Branch = offspring from the root through the stump
The Roots = source of the stump
Okay. I guess since that stump was created by God THROUGH Jesus, we could, in a very vague way, consider Jesus “the source” of the stump. Much like we could consider the baseball I threw at your head “the source” of the bump on your head……….. even though I, the one who THREW the baseball, was the ULTIMATE source of that bump on your head.So now what? Are you trying to inch ever closer to a claim of Jesus CREATING David?
We know that's not the case though, don't we? (Or do I have to pull out those 9 scriptures that explicitely list Jesus as someone OTHER THAN our ONE Creator again?)
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 09 2013,22:15) Mike, I cannot give you the scriptures one by one because it is the scriptures as a whole. What you ask is impossible, unless you want to go through the entire bible with me??
Absolutely I'll go through the entire Bible with you, 2B. Start with your very first scripture in the Bible that says the Holy Spirit of God is the Son of God………. and we'll move on down the Bible from there, okay?Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2013,23:55) 2beesee, I have shown my reasoning for believing Scripture calls the Spirit the Son at times.
Did you show scriptures that clearly teach of such a thing, Kerwin? Because if you did, I sure didn't notice them. Perhaps you can help 2B out with his assignment now by listing just ONE of those scriptures.Kerwin, do you believe the Holy Spirit is ONE Son of God, and Jesus is a completely DIFFERENT Son of God?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2013,23:55) I conceived and gave birth to my thoughts therefore my thoughts are my children.
Don't say that anywhere near a mental ward, Kerwin. They're liable to lock you up inside. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,15:27) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2013,23:55) 2beesee, I have shown my reasoning for believing Scripture calls the Spirit the Son at times.
Did you show scriptures that clearly teach of such a thing, Kerwin? Because if you did, I sure didn't notice them. Perhaps you can help 2B out with his assignment now by listing just ONE of those scriptures.Kerwin, do you believe the Holy Spirit is ONE Son of God, and Jesus is a completely DIFFERENT Son of God?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2013,23:55) I conceived and gave birth to my thoughts therefore my thoughts are my children.
Don't say that anywhere near a mental ward, Kerwin. They're liable to lock you up inside.
Mike,As is common to man, you see what you want to see. 2beesee and I choose see something different than you.
They must lock up many that choose to use imagery in there speech.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,19:05) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,21:03) Mike……..I just never thought about it that way before , but it makes perfect sense to me
It makes perfect sense that both Jesus Christ AND the Holy Spirit are two different “sons of God”?Are you sure?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,21:03) Did you not read the post i posted about the Lake water taken for a Lake and transported to other parts of the world , the water would still be the same water as in the lake. So it is with the Spirits of God.
OK. If the Spirit of God is in Phoenix, and the Spirit of God is in New York, it is still the same Spirit of God. I get that. But what in the world does that have to do with that Spirit being the Son of God?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,21:03) Now as to the Scriptures about Levi tithing before he was born being in the Loin of Abraham. Here it is.
9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.Gene, the words “one might even say” tell you that Paul is speaking metaphorically, right? So NO, Levi wasn't LITERALLY existing as a person inside of Abraham when Abraham paid the tenth to Melchizedek.
Now, just because that is obviously a metaphorical statement, does it mean John 17:5 and all the other scriptures about the Prue-existence of Jesus are also metaphorical? Of course not. If we are going to call ALL scriptures metaphorical just because one scripture is, where would that leave us?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,21:03) i believe the son is and alway was in God Father because the same preexisting Spirit
But are you talking about JESUS? Or are you talking about this OTHER son of God, the Holy Spirit?
Mike……….If Abraham never existed neither would Levi have existed. Levi derived his existence from Abraham, So as Paul said we can consider Levi as Paying tithes in Abraham , as a literal thing. And even if you consider it in a Metaphorically sense, why can't you also understand that the Son of God is also the Spirit of God in a Metaphorically sense to then.Mike Tells us if the Word “Begotten” means to bring into Existence” how could Jesus be Begotten on “this Day” when he already existed?
can you begin to exist, “be begotten”, if you already exist?
There is a perfectly good word in the Greek “Preexist” even in the NT but never ever ever referred to Jesus, why is that Mike.”
Why would God say LITERALLY” I will raise up a “Prophet” like Moses originating from the family of Israel. Dut 18:15-19
Ask any Jew what the word Messiah means and he will tell you a MAN who is the anointed of GOD is to come, a Prophet like Moses, they never thought him to be anything other then a Man of God and still don't think any different either.
Mike you said you get that the Spirit of God is in New York it still is the spirit of God, Then you say it has nothing to do with the Son of GOD, That is where you are wrong it has every thing to do with the Son because that Same Spirit was “IN” Jesus Making Him a Son of GOD, GET IT?
It works the same with us also as with the MAN Jesus. Haven't you read where Jesus said I “IN you and “YOU” in me and He was “IN” God and GOD was “IN” Him , that is done by to One Spirit of GOD indwelling all his Children which makes them Children of God. Simple. and that is the same with Jesus the First “begotten” (brought into existence Son of God) by his berth and receiving of God Spirit into Him, the man Jesus who is called the Christ (Messiah) From the Lions of Abraham, The anointed one of God. Jesus was a adopted son of God just as we all are, when we receive the Holy Spirit which makes us his children even as it did Jesus also. There is no difference Mike same God, same Sprit, same anointing , same adoption, same family, of God. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2013,10:24) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 06 2013,21:24) Mike……….speaking physically tell us if I were to remove you DNA you received from your father from you, and supplied another's DNA would you look the same as you now look , YES or NO Would you still be the son of your present father, YES OR NO
I don't know, Gene. Neither do you.Now please just answer the question I've asked you over and over. You told me, Sorry Mike, but Kerwin and 2B are right about this, and you are wrong, remember?
To me, that implies that YOU too believe that God's Holy Spirit (ALL BY ITSELF) is actually the Son of God.
DO YOU BELIEVE THIS OR NOT?
Hi Mike,God's Holy Spirit (ALL BY ITSELF) actually conceived the Son of God in Mary.
DO YOU BELIEVE THIS OR NOT?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,08:31) Quote (abe @ Mar. 07 2013,21:53) Hi Mike, Is the Holy Spirit God?
No Abe.The Holy Spirit is OF God.
Just as your spirit is not entirely “you”, God's Spirit is not entirely “Him”. Your spirit is a part OF “you” – and God's Spirit is a part OF “Him”.
This is how I understand it.
Hi Mike,Wouldn't that make your spirit YOU, and God's Spirit GOD?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,08:48) Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,01:44) Hi Mike, And the Spirit of Christ is?
Of Christ? Or Of God?
Of Christ.
Hi Mike,Agreed! …But I would say it this way: “Of Jesus from God”
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Mar. 10 2013,09:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,08:48) Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,01:44) Hi Mike, And the Spirit of Christ is?
Of Christ? Or Of God?
Of Christ.
Hi Mike,Agreed! …But I would say it this way: “Of Jesus from God”
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,Gal.4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Peace brother.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,03:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,22:09) The Branch = offspring from the root through the stump
The Roots = source of the stump
Okay. I guess since that stump was created by God THROUGH Jesus, we could, in a very vague way, consider Jesus “the source” of the stump. Much like we could consider the baseball I threw at your head “the source” of the bump on your head……….. even though I, the one who THREW the baseball, was the ULTIMATE source of that bump on your head.So now what? Are you trying to inch ever closer to a claim of Jesus CREATING David?
We know that's not the case though, don't we? (Or do I have to pull out those 9 scriptures that explicitely list Jesus as someone OTHER THAN our ONE Creator again?)
If your arm threw the ball, then your arm is the 'source' of the strength. Your mind would not be the source as the strength, your mind would be the authority but your arm provides the strength to get the ball from one place to another.So in your analogy, the Son would not be the ball, but the arm.
Isa 63:5
“I looked, and there was no one to help, And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, And My wrath upheld Me.Quote 2. Anything that is “born” is also a “creation”, Kathi. Not the Son who was the eternal life which was with the Father.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 10 2013,15:03) Mike…….. It can be said the Son of God existed this way also but never was and active “individual” untill his berth on this earth in the Flesh of the Man Jesus. This is the way i have now come to see it. And i believe it to be right Mike.
peace and loveto you and yours………………………….gene
Hi Gene,I agree completely with this summation.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,03:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,21:56) Mike, 1. Wisdom is born in the sense of 'brought forth' throughout scripture.
2. Wisdom is not created out of nothing, anywhere in scripture.
3. Wisdom has to be within someone before it can be brought forth, otherwise it is just a good guess.
1. Give me a scripture.2. Anything that is “born” is also a “creation”, Kathi.
3. This is just you saying things. And the thing you said doesn't even make sense to me.
Kathi, you are just doing your same old, same old. You are trying to distinguish between being “born” and being “created”. You do it with Jesus. And now you're trying to do it with the wisdom in Prov 8 because you know that also refers to Jesus………….. and you simply don't WANT Jesus to have been created.
You fault NETNotes, but that is just because it irks you that they also can see the obvious fact that anything that is born is also created. That's why they say the wording of “given birth” and “born” argue FOR the translation of “create” in verse 22.
Quote
1. Give me a scripture.Oh brother! If wisdom is given at any time, it is brought forth from within. Do you really not understand that?
Quote Mike Tells us if the Word “Begotten” means to bring into Existence” how could Jesus be Begotten on “this Day” when he already existed? can you begin to exist, “be begotten”, if you already exist?
Gene, the word 'begotten' is often meant as being born. Anything that is born was alive beforehand.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 10 2013,16:15) Mike, I cannot give you the scriptures one by one because it is the scriptures as a whole. What you ask is impossible, unless you want to go through the entire bible with me??
What we each learn as truth only God can show us. Why do you think that man goes astray? They may feel safe in their beliefs, but is this any guarantee that they have truth in what they teach?
We have no need of a teacher, because we have one teacher, and that teacher is with us, but the only way that that teacher can be with us, is if we are true to ourselves, and if we seek God with a humble heart.
In this day and age, where is truth? Has it fled? Are people so consumed with words and doctrines that they have forsaken the Lord?
Since when has our own mind become God? Do we think that we are that clever?I would suggest to you, Mike, that you look into the missing Gospel – the Shepherd of Hermas, and ask yourself why it was so accepted by the earliest Church and listed as canon in the earliest times by the church, who did not QUESTION Hermas' Christiology.
BTW, Kerwin did not learn off of me, Mike. Kerwin believed what He believes long before me, I think. So sorry, you are wrong there…
Peace Mike.
Hi 2Besee,The Shepherd of Hermas is not canon,
why do you push it as if it was canon?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2013,23:40) Mike, As is common to man, you see what you want to see. 2beesee and I choose see something different than you.
They must lock up many that choose to use imagery in there speech.
Yes Kerwin, I understand you perfectly.
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 11 2013,08:40) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 10 2013,16:15) Mike, I cannot give you the scriptures one by one because it is the scriptures as a whole. What you ask is impossible, unless you want to go through the entire bible with me??
What we each learn as truth only God can show us. Why do you think that man goes astray? They may feel safe in their beliefs, but is this any guarantee that they have truth in what they teach?
We have no need of a teacher, because we have one teacher, and that teacher is with us, but the only way that that teacher can be with us, is if we are true to ourselves, and if we seek God with a humble heart.
In this day and age, where is truth? Has it fled? Are people so consumed with words and doctrines that they have forsaken the Lord?
Since when has our own mind become God? Do we think that we are that clever?I would suggest to you, Mike, that you look into the missing Gospel – the Shepherd of Hermas, and ask yourself why it was so accepted by the earliest Church and listed as canon in the earliest times by the church, who did not QUESTION Hermas' Christiology.
BTW, Kerwin did not learn off of me, Mike. Kerwin believed what He believes long before me, I think. So sorry, you are wrong there…
Peace Mike.
Hi 2Besee,The Shepherd of Hermas is not canon,
why do you push it as if it was canon?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Ed,
YOU say that the 'Shepherd of Hermas' was not considered as canon – even though facts tell us that it was considered to be canon in the earliest days.
The reason why you do not want 'Hermas' to have been CALLED canon by the earliest church is because 'Hermas' disagrees with your view.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 10 2013,11:30) Quote Mike Tells us if the Word “Begotten” means to bring into Existence” how could Jesus be Begotten on “this Day” when he already existed? can you begin to exist, “be begotten”, if you already exist?
Gene, the word 'begotten' is often meant as being born. Anything that is born was alive beforehand.
Hi LU,(quote)
Anything that is born was alive beforehand.And the word was God.
Peace sister..
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