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Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,16:16)
Kathi, am I correct in saying that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception? YES or NO?If your answer is “NO”, then please tell us what OTHER parts the father has in the producing of a child.
Mike,NO.
I see the answer of “NO”. But I'm not seeing the list of OTHER parts the father plays in begetting a child.Why not?
He sends his seed and then moves on. Hours or days later, the act of conception takes place. A woman conceives, not a man. A man takes part in the act by sending the seed but sending the seed is not a begettal. A man begets a child by a woman giving birth to a child that a man sent his seed into.
So like I said, the ONLY part a man plays in the bringing forth of a child is the “sending the seed/conception” part, right?A man does NOT carry a child INSIDE HIMSELF, and then later bring that child out of him, right?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,17:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:47) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) I thought I'd introduce you and your ideas to the people here, so they too can know that your claims are usually baseless. You weren't very successful.
Well, let's see…………Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:47) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) So tell me, which part of these things allows for Jesus to BE the Almighty God he is the servant and prophet of – while poor old Moses is delegated to “non-God” status? Jesus is the root of Jesse and the shoot.
Moses is not the root of anyone.So that's it? Jesus, the servant and prophet of God, has lived longer than Moses, the servant and prophet of God?
And that's all it takes to make one servant BE the God he is the servant of, while the other is not?
Like I said: BASELESS.
From the roots of Jesse came the shoot. This is not just a before and after existence. The shoot didn't come from something that just existed before Jesse did. Angels existed before and after Jesse but they were not the foundation of Jesse, nor the offspring.
And? We already know that our ONE Almighty God, Jehovah, created all things THROUGH His servant Jesus Christ, right?Jesse and David were no exception. They too were created THROUGH Jesus.
Tell me again how this allows for Jesus to BE the very God who created all things THROUGH him.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,19:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) I spent hours on that showing you so many verses on wisdom in Proverbs and NONE of them supports the idea of a 'created' wisdom but you seem to ignore that, you just want to hang your hat on the weak peg-the translators of the NET…….
How many support the idea of a wisdom that was “BORN” and “GIVEN BIRTH”?
Born and given birth are the same things!
Okay. Now answer the question I asked.
This is the post I was referring to in my last post.Quote Tell me again how this allows for Jesus to BE the very God who created all things THROUGH him. I never said it did.
David and Jesse came from 'Roots' a plural word. One of the Roots also became an offspring of David and Jesse.
Note to reader…please see that Mike has once again implied that I said something that I did not say. He is not only double minded but keeps saying and implying that I said something that I didn't.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,20:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,16:16)
Kathi, am I correct in saying that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception? YES or NO?If your answer is “NO”, then please tell us what OTHER parts the father has in the producing of a child.
Mike,NO.
I see the answer of “NO”. But I'm not seeing the list of OTHER parts the father plays in begetting a child.Why not?
He sends his seed and then moves on. Hours or days later, the act of conception takes place. A woman conceives, not a man. A man takes part in the act by sending the seed but sending the seed is not a begettal. A man begets a child by a woman giving birth to a child that a man sent his seed into.
So like I said, the ONLY part a man plays in the bringing forth of a child is the “sending the seed/conception” part, right?A man does NOT carry a child INSIDE HIMSELF, and then later bring that child out of him, right?
In asexual reproduction there is only one parent that is needed. There was no sexual reproduction to make the only begotten Son of God before the ages, Mike.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,17:10) MIke says: Quote BASELESS. Really? Show me where Moses existed before and after someone as their foundation and their offspring.
Watch him not be able to show me one verse that would demonstrate that Moses is the foundation of someone and also their offspring.
How does this say Jesus IS the very God he is the servant of?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,19:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,19:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) I spent hours on that showing you so many verses on wisdom in Proverbs and NONE of them supports the idea of a 'created' wisdom but you seem to ignore that, you just want to hang your hat on the weak peg-the translators of the NET…….
How many support the idea of a wisdom that was “BORN” and “GIVEN BIRTH”?
Born and given birth are the same things!
Okay. Now answer the question I asked.
This is the post I was referring to in my last post.
What do you mean by,“In what context”?You are saying that verse 22 can't be “created” because there are no other verses that speak of wisdom being created.
So I'm asking you if there are other verses that speak of wisdom being “born” – like verses 24 and 25 say?
In other words, what does it matter if this is the only passage in scripture that speaks of wisdom being “created” and “born”? It still speaks of it, right?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,19:36) Quote Tell me again how this allows for Jesus to BE the very God who created all things THROUGH him. I never said it did.
David and Jesse came from 'Roots' a plural word. One of the Roots also became an offspring of David and Jesse.
Note to reader…please see that Mike has once again implied that I said something that I did not say. He is not only double minded but keeps saying and implying that I said something that I didn't.
Then what ARE you saying these things for? Surely we know that Jesus was both the root AND the branch of David.What point are you trying to make?
And why do you keep trying to steer the discussion towards slamming me personally – instead of addressing the actual points I'm making?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,19:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,20:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,16:16)
Kathi, am I correct in saying that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception? YES or NO?If your answer is “NO”, then please tell us what OTHER parts the father has in the producing of a child.
Mike,NO.
I see the answer of “NO”. But I'm not seeing the list of OTHER parts the father plays in begetting a child.Why not?
He sends his seed and then moves on. Hours or days later, the act of conception takes place. A woman conceives, not a man. A man takes part in the act by sending the seed but sending the seed is not a begettal. A man begets a child by a woman giving birth to a child that a man sent his seed into.
So like I said, the ONLY part a man plays in the bringing forth of a child is the “sending the seed/conception” part, right?A man does NOT carry a child INSIDE HIMSELF, and then later bring that child out of him, right?
In asexual reproduction there is only one parent that is needed. There was no sexual reproduction to make the only begotten Son of God before the ages, Mike.
In the case of fathers and sons, does the father ever carry a child inside of his body before bringing that child forth into the world, or whatever? NO.So what SCRIPTURE causes you to think this is the case for Jesus?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,09:03) Gene, it's clear to me that you've NEVER in your life believed that the Holy Spirit was God's Son. Neither you, nor Kerwin, have ever mentioned such a thing in the time I've been on HN. I believe you guys are only jumping on this crazy train now because you hope 2B will be able to use this unscriptural claim as an argument against Jesus pre-existing. In other words, you are along for the ride, not even sure where the ride is going. And you don't even CARE where it goes – as long as it goes AWAY FROM Jesus pre-existing. Well, 2B is about to start listing the scriptures, ONE BY ONE, that “support” the claim that the Holy Spirit is God's Son.
All I can say is, Get ready for a bumpy ride, guys.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,10:02) Now tell me this Mike, do you believe believe, Levi paid tithes through Abraham before he ever “existed” , because he “existed” in the Loins of his father Abraham? Yes or No please
Post the scripture please. I don't remember exactly how it's worded.
Mike……..I just never thought abput it that way before , but it makes perfect sense to me , Did you not read the post i posted about the Lake water taken for a Lake and transported to other parts of the world , the water would still be the same water as in the lake. So it is with the Sprits of God.Nowas to the Scriptures about Levi tithing before he was born being in the Loin of Abraham. Here it is.
Heb 7:9……> And as I may so say, Levi also. who recieved tithes paid tithes in Abraham Vers 10…..> For he was yet in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
Mike that is the reason i believe the son is and alway was in God Father because the same preexisting Spirt , Just as Levi was in Father Abraham's Loins. He in that sense existed before his berth. It can be said the Son of God existed this way also but never was and active “individual” untill his berth on this earth in the Flesh of the Man Jesus. This is the way i have now come to see it. And i believe it to be right Mike.
Mike much like the Water while still in the lake is at the same location or source, but when but removed it can be put in a vesel (body)and removed to another place but it still is that same water no matter where it is located.
Therefore He Says In Joel, I (God) shall “POUR” Forth “my” Spirit upon “all” flesh
peace and loveto you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,09:03) Gene, it's clear to me that you've NEVER in your life believed that the Holy Spirit was God's Son. Neither you, nor Kerwin, have ever mentioned such a thing in the time I've been on HN. I believe you guys are only jumping on this crazy train now because you hope 2B will be able to use this unscriptural claim as an argument against Jesus pre-existing. In other words, you are along for the ride, not even sure where the ride is going. And you don't even CARE where it goes – as long as it goes AWAY FROM Jesus pre-existing. Well, 2B is about to start listing the scriptures, ONE BY ONE, that “support” the claim that the Holy Spirit is God's Son.
All I can say is, Get ready for a bumpy ride, guys.
Mike,
I never read this post.
Okay, so I will leave you to talk about God with others, in very strange ways (human reproduction??)
Bye.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,21:26) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,17:10) MIke says: Quote BASELESS. Really? Show me where Moses existed before and after someone as their foundation and their offspring.
Watch him not be able to show me one verse that would demonstrate that Moses is the foundation of someone and also their offspring.
How does this say Jesus IS the very God he is the servant of?
Why do you ask me? I never said that it did. Also, I never said that He was. We were comparing the only Son to Moses.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,21:29) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,19:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,19:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) I spent hours on that showing you so many verses on wisdom in Proverbs and NONE of them supports the idea of a 'created' wisdom but you seem to ignore that, you just want to hang your hat on the weak peg-the translators of the NET…….
How many support the idea of a wisdom that was “BORN” and “GIVEN BIRTH”?
Born and given birth are the same things!
Okay. Now answer the question I asked.
This is the post I was referring to in my last post.
What do you mean by,“In what context”?You are saying that verse 22 can't be “created” because there are no other verses that speak of wisdom being created.
So I'm asking you if there are other verses that speak of wisdom being “born” – like verses 24 and 25 say?
In other words, what does it matter if this is the only passage in scripture that speaks of wisdom being “created” and “born”? It still speaks of it, right?
Mike,
Wisdom is born in the sense of 'brought forth' throughout scripture.Wisdom is not created out of nothing, anywhere in scripture.
Wisdom has to be within someone before it can be brought forth, otherwise it is just a good guess.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,21:48) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,19:36) Quote Tell me again how this allows for Jesus to BE the very God who created all things THROUGH him. I never said it did.
David and Jesse came from 'Roots' a plural word. One of the Roots also became an offspring of David and Jesse.
Note to reader…please see that Mike has once again implied that I said something that I did not say. He is not only double minded but keeps saying and implying that I said something that I didn't.
Then what ARE you saying these things for? Surely we know that Jesus was both the root AND the branch of David.What point are you trying to make?
And why do you keep trying to steer the discussion towards slamming me personally – instead of addressing the actual points I'm making?
Isa 11:1
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.The Branch = offspring from the root through the stump
The Roots = source of the stumpMike,
I cannot give you the scriptures one by one because it is the scriptures as a whole. What you ask is impossible, unless you want to go through the entire bible with me??
What we each learn as truth only God can show us. Why do you think that man goes astray? They may feel safe in their beliefs, but is this any guarantee that they have truth in what they teach?
We have no need of a teacher, because we have one teacher, and that teacher is with us, but the only way that that teacher can be with us, is if we are true to ourselves, and if we seek God with a humble heart.
In this day and age, where is truth? Has it fled? Are people so consumed with words and doctrines that they have forsaken the Lord?
Since when has our own mind become God? Do we think that we are that clever?I would suggest to you, Mike, that you look into the missing Gospel – the Shepherd of Hermas, and ask yourself why it was so accepted by the earliest Church and listed as canon in the earliest times by the church, who did not QUESTION Hermas' Christiology.
BTW, Kerwin did not learn off of me, Mike. Kerwin believed what He believes long before me, I think. So sorry, you are wrong there…
Peace Mike.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 10 2013,17:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,09:03) Gene, it's clear to me that you've NEVER in your life believed that the Holy Spirit was God's Son. Neither you, nor Kerwin, have ever mentioned such a thing in the time I've been on HN. I believe you guys are only jumping on this crazy train now because you hope 2B will be able to use this unscriptural claim as an argument against Jesus pre-existing. In other words, you are along for the ride, not even sure where the ride is going. And you don't even CARE where it goes – as long as it goes AWAY FROM Jesus pre-existing. Well, 2B is about to start listing the scriptures, ONE BY ONE, that “support” the claim that the Holy Spirit is God's Son.
All I can say is, Get ready for a bumpy ride, guys.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,10:02) Now tell me this Mike, do you believe believe, Levi paid tithes through Abraham before he ever “existed” , because he “existed” in the Loins of his father Abraham? Yes or No please
Post the scripture please. I don't remember exactly how it's worded.
Mike……..I just never thought abput it that way before , but it makes perfect sense to me , Did you not read the post i posted about the Lake water taken for a Lake and transported to other parts of the world , the water would still be the same water as in the lake. So it is with the Sprits of God.Nowas to the Scriptures about Levi tithing before he was born being in the Loin of Abraham. Here it is.
Heb 7:9……> And as I may so say, Levi also. who recieved tithes paid tithes in Abraham Vers 10…..> For he was yet in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
Mike that is the reason i believe the son is and alway was in God Father because the same preexisting Spirt , Just as Levi was in Father Abraham's Loins. He in that sense existed before his berth. It can be said the Son of God existed this way also but never was and active “individual” untill his berth on this earth in the Flesh of the Man Jesus. This is the way i have now come to see it. And i believe it to be right Mike.
Mike much like the Water while still in the lake is at the same location or source, but when but removed it can be put in a vesel (body)and removed to another place but it still is that same water no matter where it is located.
Therefore He Says In Joel, I (God) shall “POUR” Forth “my” Spirit upon “all” flesh
peace and loveto you and yours………………………….gene
It does make more sense Gene, and there is still so much to learn.
God bless you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,21:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,19:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,20:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,16:16)
Kathi, am I correct in saying that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception? YES or NO?If your answer is “NO”, then please tell us what OTHER parts the father has in the producing of a child.
Mike,NO.
I see the answer of “NO”. But I'm not seeing the list of OTHER parts the father plays in begetting a child.Why not?
He sends his seed and then moves on. Hours or days later, the act of conception takes place. A woman conceives, not a man. A man takes part in the act by sending the seed but sending the seed is not a begettal. A man begets a child by a woman giving birth to a child that a man sent his seed into.
So like I said, the ONLY part a man plays in the bringing forth of a child is the “sending the seed/conception” part, right?A man does NOT carry a child INSIDE HIMSELF, and then later bring that child out of him, right?
In asexual reproduction there is only one parent that is needed. There was no sexual reproduction to make the only begotten Son of God before the ages, Mike.
In the case of fathers and sons, does the father ever carry a child inside of his body before bringing that child forth into the world, or whatever? NO.So what SCRIPTURE causes you to think this is the case for Jesus?
You can't compare sexual reproduction with asexual reproduction. A mother did not beget Him. You are comparing His begettal to those who are begotten from sexual reproduction. Are you really thinking that a mother brought Him forth before the ages and that there was sexual reproduction in His case, Mike. Do you really need a specific scripture that says there was no mother or sexual reproduction to understand that there was no mother or sexual reproduction???This is what I mean about you wasting others time with these rabbit trails that you don't even believe yourself. That is why I am calling you out on these double minded tactics. This is not a mock trial where you need to be ready to defend both sides of an argument.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,21:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,21:26) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,17:10) MIke says: Quote BASELESS. Really? Show me where Moses existed before and after someone as their foundation and their offspring.
Watch him not be able to show me one verse that would demonstrate that Moses is the foundation of someone and also their offspring.
How does this say Jesus IS the very God he is the servant of?
Why do you ask me? I never said that it did. Also, I never said that He was. We were comparing the only Son to Moses.
Okay. So Jesus, the servant of God, is greater than Moses, the servant of God.Is that all you were trying to say? Because I don't think anyone here will argue that point.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 10 2013,11:15) Mike, I cannot give you the scriptures one by one because it is the scriptures as a whole. What you ask is impossible, unless you want to go through the entire bible with me??
What we each learn as truth only God can show us. Why do you think that man goes astray? They may feel safe in their beliefs, but is this any guarantee that they have truth in what they teach?
We have no need of a teacher, because we have one teacher, and that teacher is with us, but the only way that that teacher can be with us, is if we are true to ourselves, and if we seek God with a humble heart.
In this day and age, where is truth? Has it fled? Are people so consumed with words and doctrines that they have forsaken the Lord?
Since when has our own mind become God? Do we think that we are that clever?I would suggest to you, Mike, that you look into the missing Gospel – the Shepherd of Hermas, and ask yourself why it was so accepted by the earliest Church and listed as canon in the earliest times by the church, who did not QUESTION Hermas' Christiology.
BTW, Kerwin did not learn off of me, Mike. Kerwin believed what He believes long before me, I think. So sorry, you are wrong there…
Peace Mike.
2beesee,I have shown my reasoning for believing Scripture calls the Spirit the Son at times.
I conceived and gave birth to my thoughts therefore my thoughts are my children.
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