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Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) And about your 'BTW' I have spent way too much time talking to you about Moses, Cyrus, and the 'created vs possessed' thing. So don't you go saying I haven't addressed it.
Yeah, but since you came into THIS thread, badmouthing me to my peers, I thought I'd introduce you and your ideas to the people here, so they too can know that your claims are usually baseless.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) *Moses as theos is only as a theos and not actually theos.
Scripture doesn't say Moses was “as God”. English translators ADD the word “as”. The Hebrew actually says that Jehovah made Moses “God/a god to Pharoah”, and “God/a god to Aaron”.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) He quotes the true theos……….
You mean like Jesus, that OTHER prophet and servant of God did?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) …………and you need better discernment as to when he is quoting the true theos and when he is sharing what he heard from theos.
Jesus, that OTHER prophet and servant of God, actually clearly identified himself as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God” in John 17:3, right? He also told the disciples MANY TIMES that the words he speaks are not his own, but only what his Father and God commanded him to say, right?So tell me, which part of these things allows for Jesus to BE the Almighty God he is the servant and prophet of – while poor old Moses is delegated to “non-God” status?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2013,15:50) Mike, I appended a link to the online NT recovery bible that actually makes the case that they are indeed related.
Kerwin,In Romans, Paul is talking about how, if we live according to God, and His Spirit dwells in us, that Spirit will quicken the mortal bodies we are now dwelling in.
It has nothing at all to do with the resurrection.
1 Cor 15, on the other hand, is Paul's answer to the questions, “How will the dead be raised? In what kind of body will they come?”
Can you see the difference?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,16:16)
Kathi, am I correct in saying that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception? YES or NO?If your answer is “NO”, then please tell us what OTHER parts the father has in the producing of a child.
Mike,NO.
I see the answer of “NO”. But I'm not seeing the list of OTHER parts the father plays in begetting a child.Why not?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) *Cyrus is an arm of the LORD as a human, not as how the Son of God is the Arm of the LORD. You confuse the shadow for the tree, the type for the actual.
What does that mean, Kathi?Wasn't Jesus, as a human being, the arm of the Lord to whom John referred?
(So far, all I'm seeing in the way of “support” is: Jesus is DIFFERENT than Moses and Cyrus, so he CAN be the God he is the servant of, but the other two cannot.)
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) *Regarding 'created' vs. 'possessed' in Prov. 8:22, the net translators use circular reasoning as a defense of their term 'created.'
Explain what is circular about their reasoning. All they are saying is that since the verb “qanah” in verse 22 could be “possessed”, or could be “created”, they are using the context of verses 23, 24, and 25 to help make the decision.And the fact that those other verses speak of wisdom BEING BORN gives a lot of credibility to a translation of “created” in verse 22.
Because after all, like I've told you a hundred times, if one is “born”, he is also a CREATION. Just like you and I are both born AND creations of our God.
Just like Jesus is both born AND a creation of his God.
(Or perhaps you could list for me a living being who WAS born, but is NOT a creation of our God.)
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) I spent hours on that showing you so many verses on wisdom in Proverbs and NONE of them supports the idea of a 'created' wisdom but you seem to ignore that, you just want to hang your hat on the weak peg-the translators of the NET…….
How many support the idea of a wisdom that was “BORN” and “GIVEN BIRTH”?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,05:14) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2013,15:50) Mike, I appended a link to the online NT recovery bible that actually makes the case that they are indeed related.
Kerwin,In Romans, Paul is talking about how, if we live according to God, and His Spirit dwells in us, that Spirit will quicken the mortal bodies we are now dwelling in.
It has nothing at all to do with the resurrection.
1 Cor 15, on the other hand, is Paul's answer to the questions, “How will the dead be raised? In what kind of body will they come?”
Can you see the difference?
Mike and all,Romans 8:11
King James Version (KJV)11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
This is an if-then statement.
If it is true that the Spirit dwells in you
then it is true that your mortal body will also be given life.the general opposite is
if it is not true that the Spirit dwells in you
then it is true that your mortal body will not be given life.Is this passage speaking of mortal life or immortal life?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,05:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) I spent hours on that showing you so many verses on wisdom in Proverbs and NONE of them supports the idea of a 'created' wisdom but you seem to ignore that, you just want to hang your hat on the weak peg-the translators of the NET…….
How many support the idea of a wisdom that was “BORN” and “GIVEN BIRTH”?
Mike,I conceived my words and gave them birth.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) And about your 'BTW' I have spent way too much time talking to you about Moses, Cyrus, and the 'created vs possessed' thing. So don't you go saying I haven't addressed it.
Yeah, but since you came into THIS thread, badmouthing me to my peers, I thought I'd introduce you and your ideas to the people here, so they too can know that your claims are usually baseless.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) *Moses as theos is only as a theos and not actually theos.
Scripture doesn't say Moses was “as God”. English translators ADD the word “as”. The Hebrew actually says that Jehovah made Moses “God/a god to Pharoah”, and “God/a god to Aaron”.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) He quotes the true theos……….
You mean like Jesus, that OTHER prophet and servant of God did?Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) …………and you need better discernment as to when he is quoting the true theos and when he is sharing what he heard from theos.
Jesus, that OTHER prophet and servant of God, actually clearly identified himself as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God” in John 17:3, right? He also told the disciples MANY TIMES that the words he speaks are not his own, but only what his Father and God commanded him to say, right?So tell me, which part of these things allows for Jesus to BE the Almighty God he is the servant and prophet of – while poor old Moses is delegated to “non-God” status?
Mike,Quote I thought I'd introduce you and your ideas to the people here, so they too can know that your claims are usually baseless. You weren't very successful.
Quote So tell me, which part of these things allows for Jesus to BE the Almighty God he is the servant and prophet of – while poor old Moses is delegated to “non-God” status? Jesus is the root of Jesse and the shoot.
Moses is not the root of anyone.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2013,16:36) Is this passage speaking of mortal life or immortal life?
Does a “mortal” body have anything to do with an “immortal” life?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) I spent hours on that showing you so many verses on wisdom in Proverbs and NONE of them supports the idea of a 'created' wisdom but you seem to ignore that, you just want to hang your hat on the weak peg-the translators of the NET…….
How many support the idea of a wisdom that was “BORN” and “GIVEN BIRTH”?
Born and given birth are the same things!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,11:33) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 09 2013,15:24) Yes, I agree with you about the resurrected bodies, but that has nothing to do with what was. (i.e that God is spirit), IMO. Well then, I'm lost.
I thought we were discussing the fact that God and His spirit sons also have bodies – just not made of flesh.
Here is a modern day fairy tale example:
Jane and Tom met on the Internet, they loved each other but had no means or ability to meet in the flesh. They spoke words of love to each other every day, words after words, feelings after feelings, emotions after emotions. They did not need to be in the flesh, what need was there of that when they had all that they could imagine?
To make a long story short…. Could they have an “immaculate conception” (or should I say “spiritual conception”)?? NO! No matter how much they make speak about things, it cannot be, can it? So though they were “in the spirit” and their relationship was spiritual…. this is not something that could possibly be.
So God who is spirit and is alone in the beginning, must have willed his son into existence. As He was alone, then spirit which God is gives birth to spirit, the Holy Spirit. The Son. And so, God made man in his own image. Spirit. And then the spirit was given a body, a tent. It was formed out of the dust. From dust you came and from dust you will return. Until the Son came to be in flesh, perfect flesh, the Son of God, Jesus, He became. And that Son of God became the second Adam, the savior of the whole world. And the Holy Spirit was sent to also dwell in those who are Gods begotten children, born not of the will of man nor the will of flesh but of God were begotten.
Just my random thoughts.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:47) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) I thought I'd introduce you and your ideas to the people here, so they too can know that your claims are usually baseless. You weren't very successful.
Well, let's see…………Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:47) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) So tell me, which part of these things allows for Jesus to BE the Almighty God he is the servant and prophet of – while poor old Moses is delegated to “non-God” status? Jesus is the root of Jesse and the shoot.
Moses is not the root of anyone.So that's it? Jesus, the servant and prophet of God, has lived longer than Moses, the servant and prophet of God?
And that's all it takes to make one servant BE the God he is the servant of, while the other is not?
Like I said: BASELESS.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,16:16)
Kathi, am I correct in saying that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception? YES or NO?If your answer is “NO”, then please tell us what OTHER parts the father has in the producing of a child.
Mike,NO.
I see the answer of “NO”. But I'm not seeing the list of OTHER parts the father plays in begetting a child.Why not?
He sends his seed and then moves on. Hours or days later, the act of conception takes place. A woman conceives, not a man. A man takes part in the act by sending the seed but sending the seed is not a begettal. A man begets a child by a woman giving birth to a child that a man sent his seed into.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:47) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) I thought I'd introduce you and your ideas to the people here, so they too can know that your claims are usually baseless. You weren't very successful.
Well, let's see…………Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:47) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) So tell me, which part of these things allows for Jesus to BE the Almighty God he is the servant and prophet of – while poor old Moses is delegated to “non-God” status? Jesus is the root of Jesse and the shoot.
Moses is not the root of anyone.So that's it? Jesus, the servant and prophet of God, has lived longer than Moses, the servant and prophet of God?
And that's all it takes to make one servant BE the God he is the servant of, while the other is not?
Like I said: BASELESS.
From the roots of Jesse came the shoot. This is not just a before and after existence. The shoot didn't come from something that just existed before Jesse did. Angels existed before and after Jesse but they were not the foundation of Jesse, nor the offspring.Quote (Or perhaps you could list for me a living being who WAS born, but is NOT a creation of our God.) The only begotten Son of God who is the eternal life which was with the Father in the beginning.
MIke says:
Quote BASELESS. Really? Show me where Moses existed before and after someone as their foundation and their offspring.
Watch him not be able to show me one verse that would demonstrate that Moses is the foundation of someone and also their offspring.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 10 2013,12:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,11:33) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 09 2013,15:24) Yes, I agree with you about the resurrected bodies, but that has nothing to do with what was. (i.e that God is spirit), IMO. Well then, I'm lost.
I thought we were discussing the fact that God and His spirit sons also have bodies – just not made of flesh.
Here is a modern day fairy tale example:
Jane and Tom met on the Internet, they loved each other but had no means or ability to meet in the flesh. They spoke words of love to each other every day, words after words, feelings after feelings, emotions after emotions. They did not need to be in the flesh, what need was there of that when they had all that they could imagine?
To make a long story short…. Could they have an “immaculate conception” (or should I say “spiritual conception”)?? NO! No matter how much they make speak about things, it cannot be, can it? So though they were “in the spirit” and their relationship was spiritual…. this is not something that could possibly be.
So God who is spirit and is alone in the beginning, must have willed his son into existence. As He was alone, then spirit which God is gives birth to spirit, the Holy Spirit. The Son. And so, God made man in his own image. Spirit. And then the spirit was given a body, a tent. It was formed out of the dust. From dust you came and from dust you will return. Until the Son came to be in flesh, perfect flesh, the Son of God, Jesus, He became. And that Son of God became the second Adam, the savior of the whole world. And the Holy Spirit was sent to also dwell in those who are Gods begotten children, born not of the will of man nor the will of flesh but of God were begotten.
Just my random thoughts.
…Continued…But you see Mike, here is the point:
There is only one God.
Not two.
The Son is a part of the Father and the Son is like the Father Spirit, and the Son is the very Spirit of the one God.No one (fully) knows the Son except for the Father, and no one fully knows the Father except for the Son – and the person to whom the Son chooses to reveal him to.
That is parallel to nobody understanding a man's thoughts except for the man's own inner spirit, which is parallel to no one knowing the thoughts of God except for God's own Spirit. But God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit – for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
Spirit gives birth to spirit.
(Sorry, i was supposed to be getting you some verses wasn't I!)
Later.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,16:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2013,18:42)
2. When John tells us that Jesus gave us the right to be sons of God who are “born of God”, do you imagine that we who are to be “born of God” live inside His womb for a while before He gives birth to us like a woman would? YES or NO?
2. Being born of God for believers is a regeneration, not a fertilization, nor a conception, nor a bringing out of a womb.
Jesus was born of God and Mary into a flesh body. And he was CONCEIVED again – AND brought out of a womb, right?But that is not my point anyway. Let me ask the question this way:
Kathi, has there ever been an instance where a child lived inside of his father, before being brought out of his father's “womb”, or whatever?
If God doesn't have a womb like a woman, then why would you assume Jesus lived in that “womb” before being brought out of God?
Oh that's right. You've admitted over and over that this is just something you THINK happened, and that there are no scriptures that actually support this thought………….. RIGHT?
If there ARE scriptures – please produce them for us now.
Mike,
you asked:Quote If God doesn't have a womb like a woman, then why would you assume Jesus lived in that “womb” before being brought out of God? Where did I say that I assume that Jesus lived in a womb before being brought out of God?
Don't make things up and say people said what they didn't, Mike. There is no credibility in that.
Not only are you double minded but you accuse people of saying things that they did not.
Please answer the question.
Note to readers, Mike can't show you what he claims that I assumed because I do not assume it.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,16:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,17:33) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) I spent hours on that showing you so many verses on wisdom in Proverbs and NONE of them supports the idea of a 'created' wisdom but you seem to ignore that, you just want to hang your hat on the weak peg-the translators of the NET…….
How many support the idea of a wisdom that was “BORN” and “GIVEN BIRTH”?
Born and given birth are the same things!
Okay. Now answer the question I asked.
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