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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,14:14) No rush 2B. We have once again strayed WAY off topic, huh?
But this is now one of my favorite threads. There sure is a “pot luck” of ideas out there – some I never would have imagined in a million years.But that is why we're on this site, right – to talk about scriptural understandings, and sort out the truth of the matter?
peace,
mikeAmen.
Mike, you might want to read this:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,09:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 08 2013,10:26) Mike……….Go back to page 183 and answer ALL the Yes or No questions please
There are no questions addressed to ME on that page, Gene. If you would like to ask ME those same questions, then post them ONE AT A TIME in a post that IS addressed to ME. (And remember that I already answered #1 – even though it wasn't addressed to me.)Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 08 2013,10:26) Why can't you understand the Spirit of God does make us the Sons and daughters of God.
Didn't I just not only agree with that statement, but also post a scripture that supported it? How then do you assume I “don't understand” it?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 08 2013,10:26) So it can be said that The Holy Spirit is also the Son of God in that “sense”. Because it produces a Son of God…….
Hmmmm………… Can God Himself “produce a son of God”? Perhaps the Father is also the Son of God “in that sense”? (See how silly that “point” is?)Gene, do you believe that, BEFORE HUMANS WERE EVER CREATED, God and His “Holy Spirit SON” dwelled in heaven?
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit of God has ALWAYS BEEN “the SON of God”? YES or NO?
(Because THAT'S what 2B and Kerwin are claiming.)
As for the DNA stuff, I haven't a clue what you're saying – and frankly don't care. If you are trying to make a SCRIPTURAL point with it, you are failing – because I surely don't see your point.
Mike…….On page 183 the post is addressed to you and has Yes No questions also.Mike i never said the Father is a Son of God i said the Father Produces his Sons and Just as a human Father Produces a Son through Physical DNA, God Begets us through His Spirit i.e seed Simple if you think about it.
Your Fathers DNA is Part of Your DNA that is a fact, the same, DNA existed in you Father and his Father all the way back to Adam. Which “ALL” flesh derives its orgins, So Jesus was “Begot” on the Day of his berth , he came into existence. he was uniquely Begotten of God , just as Adam was uniquely begotten by God.
Mike God is HOLY SPIRIT he existed from eternity. It is very much like this, lets say there was a giant lake like Lake Tahoe and you took a bucket of water to another place and filled up ten other bottle from the water you took, and sent them to ten different places in the world , tell me would the water from Tahoe be there or not. Would it be the exact same water or would it be a different water, So it is whith the Spirit Mike.
Mike you ask do i believe the Holy Sprit of God has always been the Son of God yes i Do. Because it is the only thing that can make a son of God so it is the Same Spirit .
Now tell me this Mike, do you believe believe, Levi paid tithes through Abraham before he ever “existed” , because he “existed” in the Loins of his father Abraham? Yes or No please
Mike……..My point with the DNA Stuff was to show you as one is so is the other , as Flesh is to Flesh , So is Spirit to Spirit, that is the Point i was making is, they operate the same, All DNA is Part of the original, so is Holy Sprit part of the original Holy Spirt. It makes the sons of God and is therefore the Son of God also. Just as Kerwin and 2besee said .
Mike take some time and read the Shepherd of Hermas you will like it, it may explain some of this to you. It is very well written and was excepted by the early church .
peace and love to you and your……………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2013,18:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 08 2013,16:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2013,16:45) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2013,22:16) And here is a third item where Mike has done double talk: He just quoted this in his post above this:
Quote Footnote #2 says:
The third parallel verb is חוֹלָלְתִּי (kholalti), “I was given birth.” Some (e.g., KJV, NAB, NASB, NRSV) translate it “brought forth” – not in the sense of being presented, but in the sense of being “begotten, given birth to.”However in another thread, he is pushing the idea that begotten means to conceive and not given birth to.
Is that accusation accurate, Kathi?Or is it more accurate to say that I pointed out to you that a father's part in begetting an offspring is the act of CONCEPTION?
I am using this argument to combat your unsupported claim that Jesus existed within the Father before the Father “begot” him – as if the Father was really a mother, and Jesus was alive in her womb before she actually gave birth to him. (Because that IS the earthly example you use to support your claim, right?)
So yes, the term “beget”, from a father's standpoint, refers to the actual conception of the child. A child doesn't live inside the womb of a father until the father passes the child through his womb, right?
It seems you owe me yet another apology.
But what does the NET Bible translators say was the begetting of the Firstborn…a birth or a conception even though it was by a Father?You sure want a lot of apologies for exposing your double mindedness. Not sure why. Here is your apology, “sorry it hurts when you are exposed as a double minded man.”
Let it lead you towards correction. Rebuke is good for those who are wise.
Okay Kathi,Let's see who is really “double talking”.
1. Am I correct that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception – when the seed impregnates the egg? YES or NO?
2. When John tells us that Jesus gave us the right to be sons of God who are “born of God”, do you imagine that we who are to be “born of God” live inside His womb for a while before He gives birth to us like a woman would? YES or NO?
(Btw, I notice how you haven't addressed a single one of my points: about Moses and Cyrus, about this begetting thing, about the fact that the evidence indicates a translation of “created” in Prov 8:22, not “possessed”, etc.
Why do you keep ignoring the part of my posts where I explain myself, proving your accusations to be false, and instead just keep making even MORE accusations?
)
Mike,
you asked:Quote
1. Am I correct that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception – when the seed impregnates the egg? YES or NO?2. When John tells us that Jesus gave us the right to be sons of God who are “born of God”, do you imagine that we who are to be “born of God” live inside His womb for a while before He gives birth to us like a woman would? YES or NO?
(Btw, I notice how you haven't addressed a single one of my points: about Moses and Cyrus, about this begetting thing, about the fact that the evidence indicates a translation of “created” in Prov 8:22, not “possessed”, etc.
1. NO, I don't believe that once a man finds that he impregnated a women, he goes about saying that he begat a child. I believe he does that after the birth. Think about it, according to you a man can say that he beget a child months before the mother can say that. Ridiculous! You equate begetting a son with fertilizing an egg. Fertilizing an egg is only part of a man or woman begetting a child. This is one reason that I don't like to spend much time on your arguments. You want to go down all possible and sometimes not probable meanings of a word…rabbit trails, time wasters.
2. Being born of God for believers is a regeneration, not a fertilization, nor a conception, nor a bringing out of a womb.
And about your 'BTW' I have spent way too much time talking to you about Moses, Cyrus, and the 'created vs possessed' thing. So don't you go saying I haven't addressed it. Briefly, to remind you:
*Moses as theos is only as a theos and not actually theos. He quotes the true theos and you need better discernment as to when he is quoting the true theos and when he is sharing what he heard from theos.*Cyrus is an arm of the LORD as a human, not as how the Son of God is the Arm of the LORD. You confuse the shadow for the tree, the type for the actual.
*Regarding 'created' vs. 'possessed' in Prov. 8:22, the net translators use circular reasoning as a defense of their term 'created.' No where else is wisdom said to be created …I spent hours on that showing you so many verses on wisdom in Proverbs and NONE of them supports the idea of a 'created' wisdom but you seem to ignore that, you just want to hang your hat on the weak peg-the translators of the NET do not believe that the Son was created, btw. The NET translators fall short of translating 'monogenes' correctly also if you remember from John 1.
So, if I don't address every rabbit trail that you want to go down, it is because you ignore the obvious in order to argue what you really don't believe anyway and it wastes time, imo.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 09 2013,02:20) it does not however say as you just did that “spirits have spiritual bodies.” 1st Cor is talking about what will be for those who are risen from the dead
1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.What does “spiritual body” mean?
1 Corinthians 15
47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.Seems simple enough. Those who are of earth have bodies made from the dust of the earth. Those who are of heaven have bodies NOT made from the dust of the earth, but made from something else. Who are “those who are of heaven”? Wouldn't they be the spirit beings we call “angels”? And are their bodies made of flesh and blood?
1 Corinthians 15:50
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,Apparently not.
2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling,So we will not be UNCLOTHED and NAKED, but instead CLOTHED with a heavenly tent (body).
This “heavenly tent” is the “spiritual body” Paul was talking about. Flesh beings have a flesh body. Spirit beings have a spiritual body.
Jesus now has one of those:
Philippians 3
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.Our lowly, flesh bodies will be transformed into glorious, new, spiritual bodies – like the one Jesus now has.
peace,
mikeQuote (2besee @ Mar. 09 2013,02:20) I'll put together all of those scriptures, soon.
I'm truly NOT interested in seeing a post full of 87 scriptures, with no commentary from you.Instead, post ONE of the scriptures you think calls the Holy Spirit the Son of God, and tell me briefly WHY you believe the scripture says what you think it does.
Then I will address that ONE scripture, and see if it really does say that the Holy Spirit is the Son of God.
Then we can move on to your other scriptures – ONE AT A TIME.
peace,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,10:02) Mike…….On page 183 the post is addressed to you and has Yes No questions also.
Oops. I assumed from your words, “Go back to page 183 and answer ALL the Yes or No questions please”, that you were talking about that post to t8 – where you asked him a dozen questions in one post.Now that I've actually looked at your post on page 183, I will remind you that I DID answer BOTH questions. The answer to the first one was, “I don't know, and neither do you” – remember?
The answer to the second one was, If your claim is that the Holy Spirit is the Son of God BECAUSE the Holy Spirit causes US to be sons of God, then we could also call GOD a “son of God”, because HE also causes us to become sons of God.
I have read this current post, and it seems your reasoning hasn't changed. You say, “Mike i never said the Father is a Son of God i said the Father Produces his Sons“.
Well, isn't “PRODUCING SONS” the very reason you think the Holy Spirit is the “Son of God”?
See how your reasoning isn't consistent?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,10:02) Mike you ask do i believe the Holy Sprit of God has always been the Son of God yes i Do. Because it is the only thing that can make a son of God so it is the Same Spirit .
But GOD can make sons of God from rocks, right Gene? So using your reasoning, GOD is also “a son of God”.Gene, it's clear to me that you've NEVER in your life believed that the Holy Spirit was God's Son. Neither you, nor Kerwin, have ever mentioned such a thing in the time I've been on HN. I believe you guys are only jumping on this crazy train now because you hope 2B will be able to use this unscriptural claim as an argument against Jesus pre-existing. In other words, you are along for the ride, not even sure where the ride is going. And you don't even CARE where it goes – as long as it goes AWAY FROM Jesus pre-existing.
Well, 2B is about to start listing the scriptures, ONE BY ONE, that “support” the claim that the Holy Spirit is God's Son.
All I can say is, Get ready for a bumpy ride, guys.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,10:02) Now tell me this Mike, do you believe believe, Levi paid tithes through Abraham before he ever “existed” , because he “existed” in the Loins of his father Abraham? Yes or No please
Post the scripture please. I don't remember exactly how it's worded.Mike , 2beese, and all,
Quote 1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.What does “spiritual body” mean?
It means [Spirit]ual body.
A Spirit quickened body as opposed to a soul quickened body.
Romans 8:11
King James Version (KJV)11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Here is a what the NT Recovery states as well as as well as a separate interpretation of the words that mirrors my own understanding.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2013,04:04) Mike , 2beese, and all, Quote 1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.What does “spiritual body” mean?
It means [Spirit]ual body.
A Spirit quickened body as opposed to a soul quickened body.
Romans 8:11
King James Version (KJV)11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
kYOU MEAN ;A SPIRITUAL BODY FOR THE SOUL ,INSTEAD OF A FLESHLY ONE
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2013,18:42) 1. Am I correct that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception – when the seed impregnates the egg? YES or NO?
1. NO, I don't believe that once a man finds that he impregnated a women, he goes about saying that he begat a child.
Hmmmm………… I don't believe I asked about what a man goes around saying, did I?Here is what I asked…….. please DIRECTLY answer the question I actually asked.
Kathi, am I correct in saying that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception? YES or NO?
If your answer is “NO”, then please tell us what OTHER parts the father has in the producing of a child.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2013,15:04) Mike , 2beese, and all, Quote 1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.What does “spiritual body” mean?
It means [Spirit]ual body.
A Spirit quickened body as opposed to a soul quickened body.
Romans 8:11
King James Version (KJV)11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Kerwin,The scripture you posted speaks of the Spirit quickening the mortal bodies in which we now dwell.
That teaching has nothing to do with the teaching in 1 Cor 15 – which doesn't address our CURRENT bodies, but the bodies in which we will be raised from the dead.
Romans 8 speaks of our current MORTAL bodies. 1 Cor 15 speaks of the time when our MORTAL bodies are transformed into IMMORTAL, spiritual bodies.
They are two different teachings.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,10:11) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 09 2013,02:20) it does not however say as you just did that “spirits have spiritual bodies.” 1st Cor is talking about what will be for those who are risen from the dead
1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.What does “spiritual body” mean?
1 Corinthians 15
47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.Seems simple enough. Those who are of earth have bodies made from the dust of the earth. Those who are of heaven have bodies NOT made from the dust of the earth, but made from something else. Who are “those who are of heaven”? Wouldn't they be the spirit beings we call “angels”? And are their bodies made of flesh and blood?
1 Corinthians 15:50
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,Apparently not.
2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling,So we will not be UNCLOTHED and NAKED, but instead CLOTHED with a heavenly tent (body).
This “heavenly tent” is the “spiritual body” Paul was talking about. Flesh beings have a flesh body. Spirit beings have a spiritual body.
Jesus now has one of those:
Philippians 3
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.Our lowly, flesh bodies will be transformed into glorious, new, spiritual bodies – like the one Jesus now has.
peace,
mikeHi Mike,
It is talking about what will be as opposed to what already is/was before the resurrection.
Man (Adam) was made in God's image and I believe that that “image” was mind and spirit (unseen) UNTIL God formed man out of the dust (made a “tent” for his inner being).Genesis 1 : In the beginning (first creation account)
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.I believe that that is the spiritual image or the inner man. Just because they are spirit (Adam and Eve) does not mean to say that they cannot have dominion over the animals, does it?
And the second creation account is in chapter 2:
4 In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up — for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no man to till the ground – but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground — then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Yes, I agree with you about the resurrected bodies, but that has nothing to do with what was. (i.e that God is spirit), IMO.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2013,18:42)
2. When John tells us that Jesus gave us the right to be sons of God who are “born of God”, do you imagine that we who are to be “born of God” live inside His womb for a while before He gives birth to us like a woman would? YES or NO?
2. Being born of God for believers is a regeneration, not a fertilization, nor a conception, nor a bringing out of a womb.
Jesus was born of God and Mary into a flesh body. And he was CONCEIVED again – AND brought out of a womb, right?But that is not my point anyway. Let me ask the question this way:
Kathi, has there ever been an instance where a child lived inside of his father, before being brought out of his father's “womb”, or whatever?
If God doesn't have a womb like a woman, then why would you assume Jesus lived in that “womb” before being brought out of God?
Oh that's right. You've admitted over and over that this is just something you THINK happened, and that there are no scriptures that actually support this thought………….. RIGHT?
If there ARE scriptures – please produce them for us now.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2013,11:04) Mike , 2beese, and all, Quote 1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.What does “spiritual body” mean?
It means [Spirit]ual body.
A Spirit quickened body as opposed to a soul quickened body.
Romans 8:11
King James Version (KJV)11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Here is a what the NT Recovery states as well as as well as a separate interpretation of the words that mirrors my own understanding.
Yes Kerwin I agree.
(What is the “Recovery Version”?)Quote (2besee @ Mar. 09 2013,15:24) Yes, I agree with you about the resurrected bodies, but that has nothing to do with what was. (i.e that God is spirit), IMO.
Well then, I'm lost.I thought we were discussing the fact that God and His spirit sons also have bodies – just not made of flesh.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,11:33) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 09 2013,15:24) Yes, I agree with you about the resurrected bodies, but that has nothing to do with what was. (i.e that God is spirit), IMO.
Well then, I'm lost.I thought we were discussing the fact that God and His spirit sons also have bodies – just not made of flesh.
Mike I do not know the answer to that.
It will need more thought and I have to go right now!!
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 10 2013,04:10) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2013,04:04) Mike , 2beese, and all, Quote 1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.What does “spiritual body” mean?
It means [Spirit]ual body.
A Spirit quickened body as opposed to a soul quickened body.
Romans 8:11
King James Version (KJV)11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
kYOU MEAN ;A SPIRITUAL BODY FOR THE SOUL ,INSTEAD OF A FLESHLY ONE
T,I appended a link to 1 Corinthians 15:44 of the NT online Recovery Bible that uses a more literal rendering of the Ancient Greek than many translations do. Its also a study bible and so has a note of an interpretation that mirrors mine.
Here is how the Concordant Literal Version renders it.
1 Corinthians 15:45-49(CLV)
45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, “became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit.” 46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual.” 47 The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven.” 48 Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials.” 49 And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,04:19) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2013,15:04) Mike , 2beese, and all, Quote 1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.What does “spiritual body” mean?
It means [Spirit]ual body.
A Spirit quickened body as opposed to a soul quickened body.
Romans 8:11
King James Version (KJV)11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Kerwin,The scripture you posted speaks of the Spirit quickening the mortal bodies in which we now dwell.
That teaching has nothing to do with the teaching in 1 Cor 15 – which doesn't address our CURRENT bodies, but the bodies in which we will be raised from the dead.
Romans 8 speaks of our current MORTAL bodies. 1 Cor 15 speaks of the time when our MORTAL bodies are transformed into IMMORTAL, spiritual bodies.
They are two different teachings.
Mike,I appended a link to the online NT recovery bible that actually makes the case that they are indeed related. I was slow and so you didn't see my change.
I also wrote to T in order to show him what the Concordant Literal Version translates 1 Corinthians 15:45-49 as.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2013,04:04) Mike , 2beese, and all, Quote 1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.What does “spiritual body” mean?
It means [Spirit]ual body.
A Spirit quickened body as opposed to a soul quickened body.
Romans 8:11
King James Version (KJV)11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Here is a what the NT Recovery states as well as as well as a separate interpretation of the words that mirrors my own understanding.
To all,bumped to bring link I appended to attention.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,16:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2013,18:42) 1. Am I correct that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception – when the seed impregnates the egg? YES or NO?
1. NO, I don't believe that once a man finds that he impregnated a women, he goes about saying that he begat a child.
Hmmmm………… I don't believe I asked about what a man goes around saying, did I?Here is what I asked…….. please DIRECTLY answer the question I actually asked.
Kathi, am I correct in saying that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception? YES or NO?
If your answer is “NO”, then please tell us what OTHER parts the father has in the producing of a child.
Mike,
you asked:Quote 1. Am I correct that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception – when the seed impregnates the egg? YES or NO? [/QUOTE]
NO. The father merely sends the seed. What the seed does after it is sent, has nothing to do with the actions of the father.
Sending the seed is not a begettal of a child. Sending the seed is only part of the act of conception. The act of conception is only part of the act of begetting a child in sexual reproduction; not so in asexual reproduction. I don't think that there is an act of conception in asexual reproduction, actually.
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