In the Beginning

[mikeboll64]

Quote (abe @ Mar. 06 2013,20:22)

Hi Mike, Acts2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made the same Jesus, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ. God made him Lord and Christ.

Agreed.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 06 2013,21:24)

Mike……….speaking physically tell us if I were to remove you DNA you received from your father from you, and supplied another's DNA would you look the same as you now look , YES or NO Would you still be the son of your present father,   YES OR NO

I don't know, Gene.  Neither do you.

Now please just answer the question I've asked you over and over.  You told me, Sorry Mike, but Kerwin and 2B are right about this, and you are wrong, remember?

To me, that implies that YOU too believe that God's Holy Spirit (ALL BY ITSELF) is actually the Son of God.

DO YOU BELIEVE THIS OR NOT?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (abe @ Mar. 07 2013,00:50)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 06 2013,18:49) Mike says: Quote Isn't it said that God POSSESSES wisdom?  How can God possess HIMSELF? This is a royal example of how Mike talks double talk. When we talk about this verse, talking about 'wisdom': Prov 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Mike will not acknowledge that the LORD 'possessed' this wisdom but relentlously insists that the LORD 'created' this wisdom and forms a doctrine that the son was created from this. Now on this thread, he is claiming that the LORD 'possessed' wisdom, a wisdom that is not the Father. hmmm   Hi LU, AMEN Peace sister.

Shall we share the WHOLE story with Abe, Kathi?

I believe the “wisdom” mentioned in Proverbs 8 is God's firstborn Son, Jesus Christ.  And I'll share with Abe what I shared with Kathi the last time we discussed the matter.  

Proverbs 8:22 NET Bible ©
The Lord created 1  me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

And this is the NETNotes information for footnote #1 above:
There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal.

Are you with me so far, Abe?  Do you understand that the earlier English translators THOUGHT there had to be another Hebrew root for the word “qanah” that meant “to create”, but they weren't sure, so they opted for “possessed”.

Ready for the clincher?

…….the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.”

Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create”……..

What are they talking about, Abe?

Proverbs 8:23
Ages ago I was appointed, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

The bolded word “appointed” in the verse above is the Hebrew word “nissakhti”.  It is used only here, and in Psalm 2:6, where it refers to the coronation of a king.

Proverbs 8:24 NET Bible ©
When there were no deep oceans I was born, 2  when there were no springs overflowing with water;

Footnote #2 says:
The third parallel verb is חוֹלָלְתִּי (kholalti), “I was given birth.” Some (e.g., KJV, NAB, NASB, NRSV) translate it “brought forth” – not in the sense of being presented, but in the sense of being “begotten, given birth to.” Here is the strongest support for the translation of קָנָה (qanah) as “created” in v. 22.

Proverbs 8:25 NIV ©
before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,

Are you able to see how the multiple phrases “was given birth” argue for a translation of “created” in verse 22……….. and AGAINST a translation of “possessed”?

But was “wisdom”, in its LITERAL sense, actually CREATED by God?  Did God “give birth” to “wisdom”, in its LITERAL sense?  Highly doubtful, IMO.

But the passage does speak about something that was created as the FIRST of God's works, right?  And we know that Jesus was God's “firstborn”, the “firstborn of all creation”, and the “beginning of the creation by God”, right?  (Heb 1:16, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14)

The passage also speaks of a king being appointed “ages ago”, “before the beginning of the earth”.  Compare that statement with Psalm 2:6-9. (Remember that the Hebrew word “nissakhti” is used ONLY in Ps 2:6 and Prov 8:23. Could this unique word be referring to the coronation of the same person in both verses?)

So I believe (as do many others) that Jesus is the one to whom Proverbs 8 refers, and that he is METAPHORICALLY called “wisdom”.  And in that sense, the “Wisdom of God” (1 Cor 1:24) is Jesus, and Jesus was created.

But on the other hand, since our discussion was concerning wisdom in its LITERAL sense, I don't believe it is a “part of God”, but something that God and many others POSSESS.

Now that you know the WHOLE story behind Kathi's vicious, slandering words, perhaps I'll get an “Amen” from you, and an apology from her.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 07 2013,04:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2013,15:41) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 02 2013,14:58) 26But THE HELPER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS AND BRING TO YOUR REMEMBERANCE ALL THAT I HAVE SAID TO YOU. Who said those words, 2B? That was Jesus of Nazareth speaking those words.

So then the one we know is “the Son of God” spoke words that clearly identified the Holy Spirit as someone other than “the Son of God who spoke the words”, and someone other than “the Father who would send the Holy Spirit in the Son's name”?

Well done, 2B.

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 07 2013,04:21)

they immediately laid snares for Him, not knowing who was concealed within Him. For “the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ” (Ps. 2:2)… They crucified the Lord of glory .’

I'm quite sure the demons knew who Jesus was, and that it was God who was in him doing the works.

Btw, when Origen spoke of one “who was concealed within him”, he meant God – not the Holy Spirit.  (Unless you have a scripture that calls the Holy Spirit “the Lord”.  Do you?)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 07 2013,05:48)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,07:54) A.  Start looking in the reservation book, thinking that by the words “I HAD”, Kerwin was talking about a room the hotel had been holding in reserve for him? This is also true but i believe asking takes less work.

So to you, the words “the room I HAD last year” mean “the room I RESERVED last year”?

Come on Kerwin. You're making us all laugh and roll our eyes.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 07 2013,05:48)

I can say yes to: Quote B.  Ask him which room HE HAD last year, so he could see if that room was available?

Well praise Jah everyone!

Okay Kerwin, since you finally agree that the words “I HAD” could in fact be referring to something someone actually HAD in the past, please tell me WHY (scripturally speaking) those same words in John 17:5 can't be referring to something Jesus actually HAD in the past.

I will be anxiously waiting for the scriptures that prohibit such an obvious understanding of the words “I HAD”.

(Or you could save us all a lot of time and just admit that there aren't any. )

[Lightenup]

Quote (abe @ Mar. 07 2013,01:50)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 06 2013,18:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,16:46) SON: A son is always a different being than the father who begot him.  A son is never “a part of” the father, as if the being consists of both father and son. Why would I assume anything different in the case of the God in whose image we were all made? WORD: Have you ever heard the expression, “You're only as good as your word”?  If people actually WERE the words they spoke, that expression would be, “You're only as good as you”.   Also, if I say words that are true, does that make me “The Truth”?  How about if I say words that are a lie?  Does it make me a lie? WISDOM: Isn't it said that God POSSESSES wisdom?  How can God possess HIMSELF? POWER: God HAS power, right?  Can God have HIMSELF? GLORY: We can see the glory of God – even in the smallest things He made, right?  Can we actually see God HIMSELF? Mike says: Quote Isn't it said that God POSSESSES wisdom?  How can God possess HIMSELF? This is a royal example of how Mike talks double talk. When we talk about this verse, talking about 'wisdom': Prov 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Mike will not acknowledge that the LORD 'possessed' this wisdom but relentlously insists that the LORD 'created' this wisdom and forms a doctrine that the son was created from this. Now on this thread, he is claiming that the LORD 'possessed' wisdom, a wisdom that is not the Father. hmmm   Hi LU, AMEN Peace sister.

Yes, amen, bro!

Can wisdom be possessed and brought forth from within…yes! Can wisdom be created…no! Wisdom can be passed on, not created out of nothing. God always possessed wisdom!!

[abe]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2013,16:14)

Quote (abe @ Mar. 07 2013,00:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 06 2013,18:49) Mike says: Quote Isn't it said that God POSSESSES wisdom?  How can God possess HIMSELF? This is a royal example of how Mike talks double talk. When we talk about this verse, talking about 'wisdom': Prov 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Mike will not acknowledge that the LORD 'possessed' this wisdom but relentlously insists that the LORD 'created' this wisdom and forms a doctrine that the son was created from this. Now on this thread, he is claiming that the LORD 'possessed' wisdom, a wisdom that is not the Father. hmmm   Hi LU, AMEN Peace sister. Shall we share the WHOLE story with Abe, Kathi? I believe the “wisdom” mentioned in Proverbs 8 is God's firstborn Son, Jesus Christ.  And I'll share with Abe what I shared with Kathi the last time we discussed the matter.   Proverbs 8:22 NET Bible © The Lord created 1  me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago. And this is the NETNotes information for footnote #1 above: There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Are you with me so far, Abe?  Do you understand that the earlier English translators THOUGHT there had to be another Hebrew root for the word “qanah” that meant “to create”, but they weren't sure, so they opted for “possessed”. Ready for the clincher? …….the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create”…….. What are they talking about, Abe? Proverbs 8:23 Ages ago I was appointed, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. The bolded word “appointed” in the verse above is the Hebrew word “nissakhti”.  It is used only here, and in Psalm 2:6, where it refers to the coronation of a king. Proverbs 8:24 NET Bible © When there were no deep oceans I was born, 2  when there were no springs overflowing with water; Footnote #2 says: The third parallel verb is חוֹלָלְתִּי (kholalti), “I was given birth.” Some (e.g., KJV, NAB, NASB, NRSV) translate it “brought forth” – not in the sense of being presented, but in the sense of being “begotten, given birth to.” Here is the strongest support for the translation of קָנָה (qanah) as “created” in v. 22. Proverbs 8:25 NIV © before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, Are you able to see how the multiple phrases “was given birth” argue for a translation of “created” in verse 22……….. and AGAINST a translation of “possessed”? But was “wisdom”, in its LITERAL sense, actually CREATED by God?  Did God “give birth” to “wisdom”, in its LITERAL sense?  Highly doubtful, IMO. But the passage does speak about something that was created as the FIRST of God's works, right?  And we know that Jesus was God's “firstborn”, the “firstborn of all creation”, and the “beginning of the creation by God”, right?  (Heb 1:16, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14) The passage also speaks of a king being appointed “ages ago”, “before the beginning of the earth”.  Compare that statement with Psalm 2:6-9.  (Remember that the Hebrew word “nissakhti” is used ONLY in Ps 2:6 and Prov 8:23.  Could this unique word be referring to the coronation of the same person in both verses?) So I believe (as do many others) that Jesus is the one to whom Proverbs 8 refers, and that he is METAPHORICALLY called “wisdom”.  And in that sense, the “Wisdom of God” (1 Cor 1:24) is Jesus, and Jesus was created. But on the other hand, since our discussion was concerning wisdom in its LITERAL sense, I don't believe it is a “part of God”, but something that God and many others POSSESS. Now that you know the WHOLE story behind Kathi's vicious, slandering words, perhaps I'll get an “Amen” from you, and an apology from her.

Hi Mike,

Is the Holy Spirit God?

Peace brother.

[Lightenup]

And here is a third item where Mike has done double talk:

He just quoted this in his post above this:

Quote

Footnote #2 says: The third parallel verb is חוֹלָלְתִּי (kholalti), “I was given birth.” Some (e.g., KJV, NAB, NASB, NRSV) translate it “brought forth” – not in the sense of being presented, but in the sense of being “begotten, given birth to.”

However in another thread, he is pushing the idea that begotten means to conceive and not given birth to.

James 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. 7For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, 8being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Like I said…he's a sneaky one. Beware!!

[abe]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 02 2013,16:27)

Quote (abe @ Mar. 02 2013,14:01) Is the Spirit of God part of Jesus? Please   Yes or No?? No.  Jesus was filled WITH the Holy Spirit.  God GAVE him the Spirit without measure.  If the Spirit of God was a “part of” Jesus, neither of those things could be said about him. Quote (abe @ Mar. 02 2013,14:01) 4.  Jesus Christ/The Word was created as the first of God's works, before the ages.  The Holy Spirit was not created. You say;   The Holy Spirit is God? I say what the scriptures say:  The Holy Spirit is OF God….. just as our own spirits are OF us. And just like we can be filled with God's Holy Spirit, without that Spirit being a “part of” us, so can Jesus.

Hi Mike,

And the Spirit of Christ is?

Of Christ? Or Of God?

Rev.21:9 And there came to me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.

According to you the wife is God.

Peace brother.

[abe]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,13:24)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 06 2013,10:28) Abe…………AMEN,  Brother,  it is the spirit of God that makes us his children . For if a person has not the spirit of God  they simply are non of his,  just as it says. Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene Romans 8:15 ……..the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” I have no disagreement with what Gene DID say about us being sons of God via Spirit.  After all, we must be born again of spirit and water, right? But that is not the question I actually ASKED Gene.  Perhaps this time he will answer the question I actually asked him. You can answer it too, Abe.  And I'd also like to hear Kathi's answer to that question.  Here it is once more: Is the Holy Spirit of God (ALL BY ITSELF) the Son of God?  YES or NO?

Hi Mike,

Spirit of God God gave this to Jesus after the resurrection it was the Promise he had made to Christ. Who is the SEED of Abraham. Gal.3:16

What is also the WIFE of the Lamb. Holy Jerusalem.

Is.62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burns.

2And the Gentiles shall see your righteousness, and all kings your glory: and you shall be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

3You shall also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of your God.

4You shall no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall your land any more be termed Desolate: but you shall be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah: for the LORD delights in you, and your land shall be married.

5For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your SONS marry YOU: and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.

Are you saying Holy Jerusalem is GOD?

Peace brother….

[2besee]

Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,11:17)

Hi 2b, Everything was created in the beginning. I think??   Day one is Christ and his different  Parts.  God called the day  LIGHT. Do you think I am off my rocker? Peace brother..

Hi Abe,

I do not believe that the Son was ever created, but I believe that the Son (the Holy Spirit) is eternal – in as much as we can understand it anyway.

Eternal is not necessarily like the Father who had no beginning. Eternal could mean 'eternal FROM a certain point' – but it being the very SPIRIT of God (Hence – Me and my Father are One)

I think that the fact that the Holy Spirit (Son) calls God his “Father” could mean that there was a beginning point before all else BUT “Spirit gives birth to Spirit” so I would say “Willed into existence” not created. Whereas, the Angels were created as was the Earth and the Universe and us.

As for “day one” and “Let there be light” – I do not believe that this was the day that the Son was created as many do (This is what you believe, correct?) I believe that the light was actual light, and I also believe that there is a link somewhere in that, to Love and Life, and all that is GOOD – the many things that make up light for us – that shines in our darkness.  

This needs more thought, Abe.

The Holy Spirit reveals that which it desires to reveal to whom it desires to reveal it to at the time that it desires to reveal it.

[2besee]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2013,00:55)

2beesee, Scripture teaches us demons did know who Jesus was.  They even sought to cause trouble by revealing it before its time and he told them to be silent.

Kerwin, I know, I was just trying to show Mike something as He follows Origen, I think!?

[Ed J]

Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,14:53)

Is the Holy Spirit   God?

Hi Abe, You bet!

(Leveticus11:45/John4:24)
(Luke1:35, Acts5:3-4, 2Cor.5:19, 1Tim.3:16)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,19:17)

Hi Mike, Spirit of God   God gave this to Jesus after the resurrection it was the Promise he had made to Christ. Who is the SEED of Abraham. Gal.3:16 What is also the  WIFE  of the Lamb.  Holy Jerusalem. Is.62:1   For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burns. 2And the Gentiles shall see your righteousness, and all kings your glory: and you shall be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. 3You shall also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of your God. 4You shall no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall your land any more be termed Desolate: but you shall be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah: for the LORD delights in you, and your land shall be   married. 5For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your   SONS  marry   YOU: and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. Are you saying Holy Jerusalem is   GOD? Peace brother….

Hi Abe,

Good Job!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 08 2013,14:31)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2013,00:55) 2beesee, Scripture teaches us demons did know who Jesus was.  They even sought to cause trouble by revealing it before its time and he told them to be silent. Kerwin, I know, I was just trying to show Mike something as He follows Origen, I think!?

2beesee,

I believe Origen was reaching at something that he did not understand and so went astray on what he said.

There are things angels desire to look into, 1 Peter 1:12. Demons may not have realized that by executing Jesus they were furthering those things.

The demons had their reasons for enticing men to crucify him and Yawheh had his reasons for allowing them to do so.

These things may relate to Mike but I admit I was not following your conversation.

[kerwin]

Abe,

Quote

Spirit of God God gave this to Jesus after the resurrection it was the Promise he had made to Christ. Who is the SEED of Abraham. Gal.3:16

It seems you conclude Yawheh waited until after Jesus was resurrected to give him the Spirit.

That is not correct as the results of living according to the Spirit is not sinning, Galatians 5:22-23, even while being tempted as it common to man, just as Jesus Christ did, Hebrews 4:15. By his fruit it is clear he had the Spirit while he lived his mortality.

He did not have the power give the Spirit to others until after his death, John 16:7.

[2besee]

Hi Mike,

Quote

We cannot be made in God's image?  Don't the scriptures say we are?

We are made in God's image and that image is our inner self. Man was then formed out of the dust.

Quote

Jesus said spirits don't have flesh and bone, 2B.  He did not say they don't have a “body”.

God is spirit and you cannot see spirit. Spirit can turn into a form so that we can perceive and understand. But it does not have the body that we have.

Quote

I agree that things with God don't necessarily have to be the way they are with His creations, but too many people use the “God's ways are not our ways” argument to “prove” a point they can't otherwise prove.

The only way to know God is in spirit and in truth. The only way that we can be in truth is to obey Him, and the only way that we can connect with God is in Spirit. As God is spirit, most things are spiritually understood. Man can never make it known unless it is made to be known, to those who have the ears to understand, and that is not in mans ways.

I do agree with you. People will use those words to say that we cannot understand everything to justify false doctrine. For every question there is an answer, but in God's own time he will give it to us.  

Quote

Is there scripture that tells us God's Son IS a part of the being of God Himself?  If not, then why wouldn't you just automatically assume the default understanding that sons are different beings than their fathers? After all, God surely knew how we humans would understand the words “father” and “son” when He told us about His Son, right?  Was He trying to trick us or something?

When I pray… I pray to the Father God through the Holy Spirit Son of God who should be in us. “because you are his children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts to cry out, “Abba! Father!”

I used to get confused about how to pray when I was an Arian. I do not now.

Quote

2B, show me the scripture that says the Father and the Son are one entity instead of two, and I'll give your argument a good listen.

it is something that is shown if you ask God.
Nobody knows the thoughts of God but the spirit within him. Nobody knows the Father but the Son (and whomever he chooses to reveal him to).

if you want all of the scriptures that have been shown to me over the past few months then I will get them.

Keep searching and only search for truth which you will get from no man.

[2besee]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2013,22:18)

2beesee, I believe Origen was reaching at something that he did not understand and so went astray on what he said.   There are things angels desire to look into, 1 Peter 1:12. Demons may not have realized that by executing Jesus they were furthering  those things. The demons had their reasons for enticing men to crucify him and Yawheh had his reasons for allowing them to do so. These things may relate to Mike but I admit I was not following your conversation.

I hear you Kerwin.

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike……….Go back to page 183 and answer ALL the Yes or No   questions please . And saying You or me did not know by removing you fathers DNA from you , and supplied it with Another would have made  you look different,  is simply not true not only do i know that but so does almost everyone who has any knowledge of DNA know that.  The DNA in you which you Received from you father and mother is what forms you looks and the Spirit you receive From God forms you Spirit and When God places his Holy Spirit in you, you become a Son of God. If you have received the Spirit of Satan into you, you will do the Same as he does and it can be said of you, your Father is the Devil, Just as Jesus said about the Pharisees of his day.

Why can't you understand the Spirit of God does make us the Sons and daughters of God. So it can be said that The Holy Spirit is also the Son of God in that “sense”. Because it produces a Son of God , Just as 2besee said Spirit begets Spirit nothing difficult about that.  

Just like your fathers DNA is part of YOUR DNA ALSO.  Just as  Adam said to Eve that she was Bone of (from) His Bone and Flesh of (from) his Flesh. Get it Mike?

Go back and answer “ALL” the Yes NO question i ask you Mike and quite trying to ignore them, as T8 did also before,  If you want to play the Yes No game,  then at least have the decency to answer “ALL” our yes No questions also.  

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene

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