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Quote (abe @ Mar. 06 2013,16:01) Hi Mike, Is the SON of God part of God?
Is the WORD of God part of God?
Is the WISDOM of God part of God?
Is the POWER of God part of God?
Is the GLORY of God part of God?
Peace brother…….
Hi Abe,
I say yes to all. Amen! (:
I don't know why Mike says 'no'.
Why do you say 'no', Mike?SON:
A son is always a different being than the father who begot him. A son is never “a part of” the father, as if the being consists of both father and son.Why would I assume anything different in the case of the God in whose image we were all made?
WORD:
Have you ever heard the expression, “You're only as good as your word”? If people actually WERE the words they spoke, that expression would be, “You're only as good as you”.
Also, if I say words that are true, does that make me “The Truth”? How about if I say words that are a lie? Does it make me a lie?
WISDOM:
Isn't it said that God POSSESSES wisdom? How can God possess HIMSELF?POWER:
God HAS power, right? Can God have HIMSELF?GLORY:
We can see the glory of God – even in the smallest things He made, right? Can we actually see God HIMSELF?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2013,10:29) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 05 2013,20:48) Mike,
How can the “finger of God” be the Holy Spirit?
I can't explain to you WHY Luke quoted Jesus as saying “finger of God”, when Matthew quoted him as saying “Spirit of God” – but the teaching seems to be the same in both books.So I don't believe God's finger is LITERALLY His Spirit, but I believe “finger of God” was a metaphorical way of saying “Spirit of God”.
After all, what exactly DID Jesus drive out demons by? Wasn't it the Holy Spirit of God? If so, then why does Luke quote Jesus as saying he drives out demons by the FINGER of God?
Hi Mike,
Okay so that verse says…
'But if I drive out demons by the power of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.' (ISV which I take as closer to literal…)
Greek…
Is finger.
But most if not all “commentaries” say it means the power of God.
But we also know that another verse says…
'Is there anyone who can understand his own thoughts except his own inner spirit? In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit.'
So this cannot be “a finger!' lol.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2013,10:46) SON:
A son is always a different being than the father who begot him. A son is never “a part of” the father, as if the being consists of both father and son.Why would I assume anything different in the case of the God in whose image we were all made?
Mike for one we cannot be made in God's image because God does not have an image as we have. We look int he mirror and we see our image, God though is invisible and is spirit and spirit does not have a body, as Jesus said.
So, when you say, in human terms that a “son is never “a part” of his Father who begot him” then this is true in human terms, but not necessarily so of God and His son,.
God is spirit, the Son is spirit. God is Holy and God is Spirit, the Son is Holy and the Son is spirit, and so the Son is the holy spirit because Spirit – that is God – gives “birth” to spirit – that is the Son of God, and the very inner Spirit of God.
If you try and understand it, it foes get confusing. But, remember that God is incomprehensible, but, we can KNOW Him by the spirit.
Quote WORD:
Have you ever heard the expression, “You're only as good as your word”? If people actually WERE the words they spoke, that expression would be, “You're only as good as you”.Also, if I say words that are true, does that make me “The Truth”? How about if I say words that are a lie? Does it make me a lie?
WISDOM:
Isn't it said that God POSSESSES wisdom? How can God possess HIMSELF?POWER:
God HAS power, right? Can God have HIMSELF?GLORY:
We can see the glory of God – even in the smallest things He made, right? Can we actually see God HIMSELF?Mike, the questions that Abe asked were:
Is the SON of God part of God?
Is the WORD of God part of God?
Is the WISDOM of God part of God?
Is the POWER of God part of God?
Is the GLORY of God part of God?
In which the answer would have to “yes”. But you said “no”. At least I'm sure you did?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,16:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 05 2013,21:13) I don't support you because you walk a crooked path. You speak out of two sides of your mouth. On one thread you will completely act like what you are saying on one thread is common sense but an insane thought on a different thread.
Oh I see. Not only is that claim ludicrous, and without any evidence, but your actions actually show YOU to be the one speaking out of both sides of your mouth.Kathi, do you believe God CREATED His Holy Spirit? YES or NO?
Because THAT is what Abe and I are discussing. So, would you and your PRIDE like to join sides with Abe on this one – just to spite me? It sure seems that way by your comments.
And since you are supporting Abe instead of me on this matter – a matter in which you don't even AGREE with Abe – it shows that YOU are the one who walks a crooked path.
Also, I asked you what “mighty hand” and “strong arm” even mean in reference to Jehovah (or anyone else for that matter). Perhaps you'd like to answer that question?
As for Cyrus and Moses, why CAN'T I use them as examples of the same things you claim make Jesus BE the God he is the Son OF?
Were they not ALL servants OF our ONE and ONLY God and Creator? YES.
Was Moses greater than Cyrus? YES. And is Michael the archangel even greater than Moses? YES. And is God's firstborn, Jesus Christ, even greater than Michael? YES.
But how does the fact that one servant of God is greater than another servant of God enable that servant to BE the very God he is a servant OF?
If one is a servant OF God, then no matter how great that particular SERVANT is, he will never actually BE God.
In your twisted, crooked path walking mind, our Almighty God Jesus serves our Almighty God the Father – leaving us with TWO Almighty Gods – something the word “Almighty”, in and of itself, doesn't even allow for……….. nevermind the hundreds of scriptures that speak about our ONE God and Creator.
But this is not the thread for your crooked paths, Kathi. This thread is for discussing whether or not Jesus Christ pre-existed his flesh. If you have an opinion on THAT issue, feel welcome to join into the discussion. Try to stay on topic, okay?
I wasn't taking sides there, I was just exposing your inconsistent 'reasoning.'Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 06 2013,11:18) Lighten up……….I agree with you regarding Mikes behavior at times. Peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Yes, and it is not always as obvious…he's a sneaky one
Peace and love to you too, Gene!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,17:28) Quote (abe @ Mar. 04 2013,22:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 04 2013,17:25) Quote (abe @ Mar. 03 2013,21:49) Why do you believe the Holy Spirit was not created?
The Holy Spirit of God is also called “the finger of God”. How can God be from everlasting, but at some point He CREATED one of His fingers?The Holy Spirit is a part of God, not a creation of God.
Hi Mike,Acts2:33 “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the PROMISE of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both SEE and HEAR.
Phl.2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a NAME which is above every NAME:
( The Holy Spirit of God is also called “the finger of God”.)
Could you please EXPLAIN this??
No one has seen God at any Time.
Peace brother….
Hi Abe,No man can see the face of God and live. Moses saw the “presence” or “glory” of God……… but not His face.
Exodus 33
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
That Acts verse you are quoting doesn't even have to do with literally seeing and hearing the Holy Spirit. I has to do with seeing and being told about THE EFFECTS OF the Holy Spirit. For example, many people saw the tongues of fire over the disciples' heads. And many people heard them speaking in languages they didn't previously know.
Paul is saying that the miracles you are seeing, and the gospel you are hearing, is the result of the Holy Spirit being poured out on the believers, IMO.
But there is the case of the Holy Spirit resting on Jesus. At that time, it was seen in “bodily form”, like a dove. But again, the Holy Spirit is not the FACE of God.
As for Phil 2:9, it speaks of Jesus – not the Holy Spirit.
And the scripture about the “finger of God”:
Luke 11:20
But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.We can know “finger of God” is a euphemism for the “Holy Spirit of God”, because the same event is also quoted in Matthew 12:28……….
But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
So can God have existed, and then at some later time CREATED one of His fingers? Or does it make more sense that the finger/spirit of God has always been a part of God?
Hi Mike,Acts2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made the same Jesus, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
God made him Lord and Christ.
Peace brother..
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,16:46) SON:
A son is always a different being than the father who begot him. A son is never “a part of” the father, as if the being consists of both father and son.Why would I assume anything different in the case of the God in whose image we were all made?
WORD:
Have you ever heard the expression, “You're only as good as your word”? If people actually WERE the words they spoke, that expression would be, “You're only as good as you”.Also, if I say words that are true, does that make me “The Truth”? How about if I say words that are a lie? Does it make me a lie?
WISDOM:
Isn't it said that God POSSESSES wisdom? How can God possess HIMSELF?POWER:
God HAS power, right? Can God have HIMSELF?GLORY:
We can see the glory of God – even in the smallest things He made, right? Can we actually see God HIMSELF?
Mike says:Quote Isn't it said that God POSSESSES wisdom? How can God possess HIMSELF? This is a royal example of how Mike talks double talk. When we talk about this verse, talking about 'wisdom':
Prov 8:22
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Mike will not acknowledge that the LORD 'possessed' this wisdom but relentlously insists that the LORD 'created' this wisdom and forms a doctrine that the son was created from this.
Now on this thread, he is claiming that the LORD 'possessed' wisdom, a wisdom that is not the Father. hmmm
Mike……….speaking physically tell us if I were to remove you DNA you received from your father from you, and supplied another's DNA would you look the same as you now look , YES or NO
Would you still be the son of your present father, YES OR NO
It works the same with the spirits. Do you understand that if you have the spirit of the devil , you are a child of he devil, but if you have the spirit of God then you are a child of God so according to scripture which spirit you have makes you a child of God or a child of the devil . That is exactly what Jesus meant when he said they did the deeds of their “FATHER” the devil So is it not the SPIRIT THE MAKES YOU THE CHILD OF GOD OR THE DEVIL, YES OR NO PLEASE
You can not be a son of God without the spirit of God in you which MAKES YOU A SON OF GOD. Spirits are very much like Physical DNA in comparison they form our spiritual make up , just as the DNA forms your physical make up
Are you able to understand this Mike ? YES or NO PLEASE
Scripture say if you don't have the spirit of Christ ” the CHRISTO'S ” ( the anointing spirit of God ) in you are simply none of his. Neither are you a child of God without the anointing Spirit of God in you. Just that simple. God and his spirit are one just as his words from that spirit are one and the same also.
Jesus said GOD is a Spirit and he also said the “WORDS” I am telling ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE. Why Mike ? Is it not because those ” WORDS” came from the Spirit of GOD which was “IN” Jesus. God and his word are one and the same thing Mike because the words of GOD comes from GOD'S Spirit.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 06 2013,13:34) Quote (abe @ Mar. 06 2013,16:01) Hi Mike, Is the SON of God part of God?
Is the WORD of God part of God?
Is the WISDOM of God part of God?
Is the POWER of God part of God?
Is the GLORY of God part of God?
Peace brother…….
Hi Abe,
I say yes to all. Amen! (:
I don't know why Mike says 'no'.
Why do you say 'no', Mike?
Hi 2b,I should of stated it as; Is the Son of God part of the creation? And all the others.
Peace brother.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 06 2013,18:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,16:46) SON:
A son is always a different being than the father who begot him. A son is never “a part of” the father, as if the being consists of both father and son.Why would I assume anything different in the case of the God in whose image we were all made?
WORD:
Have you ever heard the expression, “You're only as good as your word”? If people actually WERE the words they spoke, that expression would be, “You're only as good as you”.Also, if I say words that are true, does that make me “The Truth”? How about if I say words that are a lie? Does it make me a lie?
WISDOM:
Isn't it said that God POSSESSES wisdom? How can God possess HIMSELF?POWER:
God HAS power, right? Can God have HIMSELF?GLORY:
We can see the glory of God – even in the smallest things He made, right? Can we actually see God HIMSELF?
Mike says:Quote Isn't it said that God POSSESSES wisdom? How can God possess HIMSELF? This is a royal example of how Mike talks double talk. When we talk about this verse, talking about 'wisdom':
Prov 8:22
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Mike will not acknowledge that the LORD 'possessed' this wisdom but relentlously insists that the LORD 'created' this wisdom and forms a doctrine that the son was created from this.
Now on this thread, he is claiming that the LORD 'possessed' wisdom, a wisdom that is not the Father. hmmm
Hi LU,AMEN
Peace sister.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2013,15:41) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 02 2013,14:58) 26But THE HELPER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS AND BRING TO YOUR REMEMBERANCE ALL THAT I HAVE SAID TO YOU.
Who said those words, 2B?Was it the Father speaking through Jesus of Nazareth?
Was it the “Holy Spirit Son of God” speaking through Jesus of Nazareth?
Or was it actually Jesus of Nazareth who said those words?
That was Jesus of Nazareth speaking those words.
Here, I just found something (whilst doing another post)
THE CROSS AND THE DEVIL
St Origen – Early Church1. The Demons as the princes of this world laid a snare to Jesus Christ, and crucified Him, not knowing who was concealed within Him.
When these, therefore, and other similar princes of this world, each having his own individual wisdom and formulating his own doctrines and peculiar opinions, saw our Lord and Savior promising and proclaiming that he had come into the world for the purpose of destroying all the doctrines, whatever they might be, of the “knowledge falsely so called” (1 Tim. 6:20), they immediately laid snares for Him, not knowing who was concealed within Him. For “the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ” (Ps. 2:2)… They crucified the Lord of glory .’
2. Through the cross the demons lost their dominion.
He began on the cross by chaining the demon, and, having entered into his house, that is to say, into Hell, and having ascended from there into the heights, He led away captives, that is to say, those who rose again and entered with Him into the heavenly Jerusalem.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics….11.html
And also remember that the Shepherd of Hermas, once canon, calls the Son of God the Holy Spirit, too.
Hmmm.
Quote (abe @ Mar. 07 2013,17:40) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 06 2013,13:34) Quote (abe @ Mar. 06 2013,16:01) Hi Mike, Is the SON of God part of God?
Is the WORD of God part of God?
Is the WISDOM of God part of God?
Is the POWER of God part of God?
Is the GLORY of God part of God?
Peace brother…….
Hi Abe,
I say yes to all. Amen! (:
I don't know why Mike says 'no'.
Why do you say 'no', Mike?
Hi 2b,I should of stated it as; Is the Son of God part of the creation? And all the others.
Peace brother.
Hi Abe, I would not know an answer to that question!
What do you think?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,07:54) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2013,05:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,07:32)
If Kerwin tells the front dest clerk that he wants the room HE HAD last year, is he talking about:A. The room HE HAD last year?
B. The room the hotel had been holding for him since last year?Which one do the words “HE HAD” imply?
The clerk is going to look at reservations and not at possession. B is the best choice because A is unrealistic.
Okay Kerwin.
Let's change the scenario a smidge, to eliminate any “wiggle room”:
Kerwin was traveling, and happened to become tired about the time he was driving by a hotel he had stayed in the year before.
He went inside and told the clerk, “I would like the room I HAD with you last year”.
What is the clerk's MOST LIKELY reaction:
A. Start looking in the reservation book, thinking that by the words “I HAD”, Kerwin was talking about a room the hotel had been holding in reserve for him?
B. Ask him which room HE HAD last year, so he could see if that room was available?
Please pick “A” or “B” as the MOST LIKELY answer.
Mike,“I had” still has two main different meanings hotels use reservations.
If I was a clerk, that used good English, I would ask the man which room he had? I would do it because it is easier than looking it up.
My answer would be just as vague as his question as neither makes it clear which sense of “I had” we were using.
I can say yes to:
Quote B. Ask him which room HE HAD last year, so he could see if that room was available? But we both mean two different things by the same words.
Quote A. Start looking in the reservation book, thinking that by the words “I HAD”, Kerwin was talking about a room the hotel had been holding in reserve for him? This is also true but i believe asking takes less work.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 07 2013,16:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2013,15:41) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 02 2013,14:58) 26But THE HELPER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS AND BRING TO YOUR REMEMBERANCE ALL THAT I HAVE SAID TO YOU.
Who said those words, 2B?Was it the Father speaking through Jesus of Nazareth?
Was it the “Holy Spirit Son of God” speaking through Jesus of Nazareth?
Or was it actually Jesus of Nazareth who said those words?
That was Jesus of Nazareth speaking those words.
Here, I just found something (whilst doing another post)
THE CROSS AND THE DEVIL
St Origen – Early Church1. The Demons as the princes of this world laid a snare to Jesus Christ, and crucified Him, not knowing who was concealed within Him.
When these, therefore, and other similar princes of this world, each having his own individual wisdom and formulating his own doctrines and peculiar opinions, saw our Lord and Savior promising and proclaiming that he had come into the world for the purpose of destroying all the doctrines, whatever they might be, of the “knowledge falsely so called” (1 Tim. 6:20), they immediately laid snares for Him, not knowing who was concealed within Him. For “the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ” (Ps. 2:2)… They crucified the Lord of glory .’
2. Through the cross the demons lost their dominion.
He began on the cross by chaining the demon, and, having entered into his house, that is to say, into Hell, and having ascended from there into the heights, He led away captives, that is to say, those who rose again and entered with Him into the heavenly Jerusalem.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics….11.html
And also remember that the Shepherd of Hermas, once canon, calls the Son of God the Holy Spirit, too.
Hmmm.
2beesee,Scripture teaches us demons did know who Jesus was. They even sought to cause trouble by revealing it before its time and he told them to be silent.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 07 2013,02:33) Quote (abe @ Mar. 07 2013,17:40) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 06 2013,13:34) Quote (abe @ Mar. 06 2013,16:01) Hi Mike, Is the SON of God part of God?
Is the WORD of God part of God?
Is the WISDOM of God part of God?
Is the POWER of God part of God?
Is the GLORY of God part of God?
Peace brother…….
Hi Abe,
I say yes to all. Amen! (:
I don't know why Mike says 'no'.
Why do you say 'no', Mike?
Hi 2b,I should of stated it as; Is the Son of God part of the creation? And all the others.
Peace brother.
Hi Abe, I would not know an answer to that question!
What do you think?
Hi 2b,Everything was created in the beginning. I think?? Day one is Christ and his different Parts. God called the day LIGHT.
Do you think I am off my rocker?Peace brother..
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 06 2013,15:49) Greek… Is finger.
But most if not all “commentaries” say it means the power of God.
2B,The parallel scripture in Matthew says “Spirit of God”, right?
To me, that means Luke's use of “finger of God” is a metaphorical way of saying “Spirit of God”.
But perhaps the commentators are correct, and Luke quotes Jesus as saying he drives out demons by the “power of God”, while Matthew says “Spirit of God”.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 06 2013,16:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2013,10:46) SON:
A son is always a different being than the father who begot him. A son is never “a part of” the father, as if the being consists of both father and son.Why would I assume anything different in the case of the God in whose image we were all made?
Mike for one we cannot be made in God's image because God does not have an image as we have.
We cannot be made in God's image? Don't the scriptures say we are?Quote (2besee @ Mar. 06 2013,16:07) We look int he mirror and we see our image, God though is invisible……..
God is invisible to human eyes. Angels see the face of God every day. (Matt 18:10)Quote (2besee @ Mar. 06 2013,16:07) ……..spirit does not have a body, as Jesus said.
Jesus said spirits don't have flesh and bone, 2B. He did not say they don't have a “body”.Quote (2besee @ Mar. 06 2013,16:07) So, when you say, in human terms that a “son is never “a part” of his Father who begot him” then this is true in human terms, but not necessarily so of God and His son.
I agree that things with God don't necessarily have to be the way they are with His creations, but too many people use the “God's ways are not our ways” argument to “prove” a point they can't otherwise prove.Is there scripture that tells us God's Son IS a part of the being of God Himself? If not, then why wouldn't you just automatically assume the default understanding that sons are different beings than their fathers?
After all, God surely knew how we humans would understand the words “father” and “son” when He told us about His Son, right? Was He trying to trick us or something?
2B, show me the scripture that says the Father and the Son are one entity instead of two, and I'll give your argument a good listen.
In the meantime, try not to overuse the “God's ways are not our ways” argument. Trinitarians have been using that one for years to “explain” their comically flawed, man-made doctrine – because they know they can't REALLY explain it at all.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 06 2013,16:07) God is Holy and God is Spirit, the Son is Holy and the Son is spirit…..
So are the myriads upon myriads of other spirit sons of God. Why do you assume only ONE of these holy spirit sons of God is the Holy Spirit of God?Quote (2besee @ Mar. 06 2013,16:07) If you try and understand it, it foes get confusing. But, remember that God is incomprehensible, but, we can KNOW Him by the spirit.
In other words, “God's ways are not our ways, so just accept this teaching that I can't support with any scripture – because the Spirit taught it to me”?Show me the scriptures, 2B. THEN I'll consider accepting the teaching.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 06 2013,19:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,16:02)
Also, I asked you what “mighty hand” and “strong arm” even mean in reference to Jehovah (or anyone else for that matter). Perhaps you'd like to answer that question?As for Cyrus and Moses, why CAN'T I use them as examples of the same things you claim make Jesus BE the God he is the Son OF?
Were they not ALL servants OF our ONE and ONLY God and Creator? YES.
Was Moses greater than Cyrus? YES. And is Michael the archangel even greater than Moses? YES. And is God's firstborn, Jesus Christ, even greater than Michael? YES.
But how does the fact that one servant of God is greater than another servant of God enable that servant to BE the very God he is a servant OF?
If one is a servant OF God, then no matter how great that particular SERVANT is, he will never actually BE God.
I wasn't taking sides there, I was just exposing your inconsistent 'reasoning.'
I wasn't trying to be inconsistent, Kathi. But you did bring up the point that since the “arms of YHWH” mentioned in scripture – such as Cyrus and Jesus – CAN be creations of God, I really can't use the “God didn't create His finger” argument to prove to Abe that the Holy Spirit was not created.I will have to find a different route to take. Perhaps you have some ideas?
In the meantime, please address the parts of my post that I left in the quote box above.
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