In the Beginning

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 26 2013,05:08)

Now tell us this was Jesus a “SPIRIT” or a flesh and blood Man, better known as a SON OF (from) MAN. Yes or NO PLease

A lot of questions here Gene.

So I will take the first one only so as to not be biased in which I will answer.

Here is your answer.

Although he existed in THE FORM OF GOD, he emptied himself, and CAME IN THE FLESH. He died, was resurrected from the dead, and seated at the right hand of God, IN THE GLORY THAT HE HAD WITH GOD BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.

So the short answer is that he existed in the form of God and then came in the flesh, and returned to his former glory.

And guess what? We will have a body like his, because it is written that our lowly bodies will be transformed into a body like his.

Amen. Do I hear you say amen too? Or is that an anti-amen?

[GeneBalthrop]

T8………You are neglecting what preexisted time period Paul was talking about. That is your problem in understanding that scripture. Paul was writing to christans about a PreexIsting time alright but that time was not before his berth on this earth, as the complete context explains. Now if Paul would have said Jesus preexisted befor he came to this earth in the form or better put (nature) of God you would have a point. But he did not say that T8, that is your assumption he was, but definitely no written there.

Another point exactly what is God's  form seeing no one has ever saw him, if you investigate that word form used there it would be better rendered (nature) most scholars I think agree with that view. Paul was not talking about two different preexisting time but one and that was when Jesus was on this earth. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2013,16:55)

Now if Paul would have said Jesus preexisted befor he came to this earth in the form or better put (nature) of God you would have a point.

Gene,

Could you show us scripturally WHEN EXACTLY Jesus was existing “in the form of God” WHILE he was on the earth?

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2013,08:42)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2013,09:25) Jesus was God Spokesmen on earth and he could have a “TITLE” as God's Word. If you are saying it is a title i agree a Person can have a title as that. I full well know Jesus was speaking “God's” word to us, i have no problem with that or him receiving a “title” of the word of God. Great, Gene!    It seems we now agree that one of Jesus' many titles was “The Word of God”. Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2013,09:25) When you say the word Became Flesh, are you talking about a Title or are your saying the word actually became (as in came to be) Actually Flesh, Which is it man, Actually neither, Gene.  I'm saying it was the PERSON who bears the title, “The Word of God”, that became flesh. Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2013,09:25) Get what i am saying Mike? I do understand what you're saying, Gene.  I just don't understand why in the world you would come to the conclusion that our only two choices are: 1.  A spoken word itself became flesh. 2.  A title itself became flesh. I agree with you that neither of those two choices make a lick of sense.  But perhaps your doctrine has been blinding your eyes to the simple and obvious THIRD option. Consider Kal Hatze, the spokesman for the king.  Let's say he died, and the king had the following declared throughout the land:  Everyone in the land of Abyssinia must mourn three days for the word of the king, since he has perished unexpectedly. Would you think that the people had to mourn for: 1.  A spoken word itself? 2.  A title itself? Or would you naturally understand that the people had to mourn for:   3.  The PERSON who had borne the TITLE, “The Word of the King”? Of course you would easily understand #3 as the ONLY sensible and logical choice, right? And how about in Revelation 19:13?  Do you suppose: 1.  It is a literal spoken word that rides the white horse? 2.  It is the title itself that rides the white horse? OR…………… 3.  It is the PERSON who bears the TITLE “The Word of God” who rides the white horse? I assume you would naturally and sensibly answer #3.  Am I right, Gene?  Please let me know.

Mike…….Truly you must be kidding, why would any king say you must morn for the word of the king if the king was still alive, he would have said to morn for the spokesman of the words of the king. A word is not a person neither can it die. It can cease to be expressed by the person who carries that title, but the word of the king could not have died, if the king was still alive. Man where do you get these off the wall ideas from brother.

That spokesman was never the kings word , he merely was a spokesman who has a “TITLE” as the kings word. Works are connect to who speaks them originally and it was God who spoke them originally and Jesus merely repeated them to us as God who was “in” him told him what to speak and not what to but how to speak “HIS” words to the people.

How simple to understand this Mike it is not hard to understand that God the Father who is the Word was “IN” Jesus speaking ” through” him. That never made the man Jesus God's word , he was the spokesman of God' words to us, you making the “TITLE” out to be a person himself.

Mike being call the word of God Is far from being the word of God if that were the case then you as we'll as all the other Trinitarians would be right Jesus would be the God because he world be himself Gods word, you can not separate God from his words no more then you can separate you from your words that is impossible with God or man.

Peace and love to you and yours Mike………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 26 2013,09:07)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 26 2013,05:08) Now tell us this was Jesus a “SPIRIT” or a flesh and blood Man, better known as a SON OF (from) MAN. Yes or NO PLease A lot of questions here Gene. So I will take the first one only so as to not be biased in which I will answer. Here is your answer. Although he existed in THE FORM OF GOD, he emptied himself, and CAME IN THE FLESH. He died, was resurrected from the dead, and seated at the right hand of God, IN THE GLORY THAT HE HAD WITH GOD BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. So the short answer is that he existed in the form of God and then came in the flesh, and returned to his former glory. And guess what? We will have a body like his, because it is written that our lowly bodies will be transformed into a body like his. Amen. Do I hear you say amen too? Or is that an anti-amen?

T8……Why could you not simply answer Yes or No to those questions they were simple and straight forward . Could not have taken over a few minutes od you time. IMO

Maybe Mike could give it a try for you brother.

Peace and love to you and yours T8……………………gene

[mikeboll64]

My answer to that first question is “BOTH”, Gene.

Jesus was a spirit being, then a human being, then a spirit being again.

(Btw, “Was he a spirit or a man?” is not a “YES” or “NO” question.    But t8 and I apparently knew what you meant, so no harm done. )

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2013,10:12)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2013,16:55) Now if Paul would have said Jesus preexisted befor he came to this earth in the form or better put (nature) of God you would have a point. Gene, Could you show us scripturally WHEN EXACTLY Jesus was existing “in the form of God” WHILE he was on the earth?

Mike………..There is no Form of God there is only the nature of God. As I have told you before many times, you simply do not understand what a Spirit “IS”. Jesus had the “nature” of God because God the Father was truly in him via his very own Spirit. You people simply do not understand what a Spirit ” IS” and that is the source of all your confusion Mike. IMO

I have told you over and over Thomas was right when he said ” my Lord “AND” my GOD. He meant what he had come to see, but you have not yet come to see that Mike . He did not say my “little” god , but His True GOD was present “IN” Jesus by his Spirit , God was there Mike and even spoke “first person at times through Jesus' mouth.” It was not Jesus who said destroy this temple and in three days I shall raise it up, that I there was God speaking himself through Jesus.' Mouth , God considers us his temples he can dwell in.

Peace and love to you and yours Mike…………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2013,17:28)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2013,08:42) I do understand what you're saying, Gene.  I just don't understand why in the world you would come to the conclusion that our only two choices are: 1.  A spoken word itself became flesh. 2.  A title itself became flesh. I agree with you that neither of those two choices make a lick of sense.  But perhaps your doctrine has been blinding your eyes to the simple and obvious THIRD option. Consider Kal Hatze, the spokesman for the king.  Let's say he died, and the king had the following declared throughout the land:  Everyone in the land of Abyssinia must mourn three days for the word of the king, since he has perished unexpectedly. Would you think that the people had to mourn for: 1.  A spoken word itself? 2.  A title itself? Or would you naturally understand that the people had to mourn for:   3.  The PERSON who had borne the TITLE, “The Word of the King”? Of course you would easily understand #3 as the ONLY sensible and logical choice, right? And how about in Revelation 19:13?  Do you suppose: 1.  It is a literal spoken word that rides the white horse? 2.  It is the title itself that rides the white horse? OR…………… 3.  It is the PERSON who bears the TITLE “The Word of God” who rides the white horse? I assume you would naturally and sensibly answer #3.  Am I right, Gene?  Please let me know. Mike…….Truly you must be kidding, why would any king say you must morn for the word of the king if the king was still alive,  he would have said to morn for the spokesman of the words of the king.

Gene,

The “spokesman of the words of the king” is the person who is called “The Word of the King”.

When the king says, “The Word of the King has died”, he is speaking about that spokesman.

Understand?

peace,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike…………..Go back to page 170 and answer them all please yes or no

Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 21 2013,08:58)

[Paul] was not talking about “all” knowledge in a general sense because not even Jesus had that.

Really Gene?

John 21:17
……..Lord, you know all things………

So Jesus didn't LITERALLY know ALL things, even though Peter clearly said he did? I guess Peter was speaking EMPHATICALLY, huh? Just like Paul was speaking EMPHATICALLY when he said the disciples had “ALL knowledge”, right?

Gene, can Jehovah be the “God OF gods” if there truly exist no other gods but Him? YES or NO?

[2besee]

Actually t8,
If you studied the writings of the Shepherd of Hermas and also essays relating to it, and if you can see the fact that the early church had no issue with it's christiology, neither did any of the 'early church fathers' in fact they considered it as canon…… then you may see that the christiology APPEARS to be the following:

The Son of God is the Holy Spirit and God created everything through the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit may have been called Yahshua which means Yah saves.
The body which the Holy Spirit Son clothed was the only sinless MAN who was born of a Virgin because God foreknew that He would be sinless so therefore intervened to cause Him to be the second Adam.

Does this mean that from the time of Baptism in the Jordan until death, the second Adam was merely “a puppet”?

No.

For His reward was eternal life.
The firstborn of many Sons and Daughters of God.
Born again of water and born of the Holy Spirit.

ONLY MY THOUGHTS AT THE MOMENT.
I am trying to understand the Shepherd.
I believe it is or may be the missing link.

It is a type of a binitarian (Father and Holy Spirit who are one) adoptionist belief.

Any thoughts from anyone?

[mikeboll64]

The italicized words below are things said about “the Word” in John 1.  The scriptures listed in parenthesis identify some of the places in scripture where those same exact things are said about Jesus.

1.  And the Word was a god:  (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)

2.  He was with God in the beginning:  (John 17:5)

3.  All things were made through him:  (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)

4.  In him was life, and that life was the light of men:  (John 5:26, John 8:12)

5.  The light shines in the darkness:  (Matthew 4:16; John 3:19; 2 Corinthians 4:6)

6.  John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning that light:  (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)

7.  The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world:  (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 3:19, 9:5, 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)

8.  Though he was in the world, the world did not recognize him:  (Isaiah 53:3, John 4:10, Acts 13:27, John 12:37-38, 1 John 3:1)

9.  He came to that which was his own: (Col 1:16; Matt 11:27; John 3:35, 13:3, 16:15; Eph 1:10; Heb 1:2)

10.  but his own did not receive him:  (Luke 9:53; John 5:43; Acts 13:46)

11.  to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God:  (Acts 4:12; John 3:14-16; Gal 3:26; Heb 2:10; Eph 1:5)

12.  The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us:  (1 John 1:1-2, 4:2; Phil 2:6-7; Rom 8:3; Gal 4:4-5)

Moving on…………………

We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten…….

Supporting scriptures:

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son………..

John 3:18
…….but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 25 2013,18:10)

Any thoughts from anyone?

The Holy Spirit of God cannot be the Son of God, for the Son of God was once said to have been filled with joy THROUGH the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit of God descended upon the Son of God.

God sent His Son to die as atonement for our sins – something the Holy Spirit cannot do – especially at the hands of mere mortal men.

Shall I go on?  Shall I post the scriptures?

Mark 1
10 As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert………

2B, do you think God said, “You are my Son” to the Holy Spirit that descended upon Jesus?  Or does the context indicate that Jesus is that Son?

And what does it mean that the Spirit “sent him” out into the desert?

2B, I know you are searching for truth. But I believe you are barking up the wrong tree with this one. Many scriptures contradict your claim that the Holy Spirit of God is the Son of God.

peace,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 26 2013,06:10)

Actually t8, If you studied the writings of the Shepherd of Hermas and also essays relating to it, and if you can see the fact that the early church had no issue with it's christiology, neither did any of the 'early church fathers' in fact they considered it as canon…… then you may see that the christiology APPEARS to be the following: The Son of God is the Holy Spirit and God created everything through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit may have been called Yahshua which means Yah saves. The body which the Holy Spirit Son clothed was the only sinless MAN who was born of a Virgin because God foreknew that He would be sinless so therefore intervened to cause Him to be the second Adam. Does this mean that from the time of Baptism in the Jordan until death, the second Adam was merely “a puppet”? No. For His reward was eternal life. The firstborn of many Sons and Daughters of God. Born again of water and born of the Holy Spirit. ONLY MY THOUGHTS AT THE MOMENT. I am trying to understand the Shepherd. I believe it is or may be the missing link. It is a type of a binitarian (Father and Holy Spirit who are one) adoptionist belief. Any thoughts from anyone?

Quote

The Son of God is the Holy Spirit and God created everything through the Holy Spirit.

if Christ his the holy spirit why did he received it

and why it was given before Christ ever came on earth

and if Christ was the holy spirit ;why then we can say all sorts of things against him ,but not against the holy spirit ;if he would be the holy spirit Christ would have not separate himself from the holy spirit ,

and the holy spirit can talk or make you talk why is that

and you can be full of the holy spirit and you can lose it as well ,even before Christ came on earth ,????

many question related to your miss understanding but if you are right ;show me were it says so ,and answer my questions

[2besee]

All,

No, you are misunderstanding.

The Holy Spirit Son pre-existed and may have been called Yahshua.

The Spirit then worked through the MAN the second Adam, 100% man He was, but after the baptism, completely under the Holy spirits power.

I do not have the time right now to go through it properly but I will post a bit more later on.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 26 2013,06:42)

All, No, you are misunderstanding. The Holy Spirit Son pre-existed and may have been called Yahshua. The Spirit then worked through the MAN the second Adam, 100% man He was, but after the baptism, completely under the Holy spirits power. I do not have the time right now to go through it properly but I will post a bit more later on.

Quote

100% man He was,

how can an man born without a human father be called 100% human

and were does it say that Christ came from men

Adam was a new creation Christ his not a new creation ;

all things were created through him ;

show scriptures for your internet education

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 25 2013,18:42)

All, No, you are misunderstanding. The Holy Spirit Son pre-existed and may have been called Yahshua. The Spirit then worked through the MAN the second Adam, 100% man He was, but after the baptism, completely under the Holy spirits power. I do not have the time right now to go through it properly but I will post a bit more later on.

That understanding says that Jesus was the “second Adam”, but NOT the “Son of God”.

It says he was a regular man that the Holy Spirit Son of God worked THROUGH.

But we know from many scriptures that Jesus WAS the “only begotten Son of God”, right?

2B, answer my question about Mark 1. Do you believe God said “You are my Son” to the Spirit who descended upon Jesus and led him into the wilderness?

Or do you think He said those words about Jesus himself?

[2besee]

Hi T,

Quote

how can an man born without a human father be called 100% human ?

How can a man born without a human father be called 100% human?
Well, Adam was made without a human father, and He was 100% human.

Also it is fact that people can be born from Virgins, though they are usually female and usually exactly identical to their mother.

Quote

Adam was a new creation Christ his not a new creation

He was when He was risen from the dead (a new creation).

---

Hi Mike.

Quote

That understanding says that Jesus was the “second Adam”, but NOT the “Son of God”.

That understanding says that He was the second Adam AND the Son of God.
Adam was called the Son of God.

“……the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.” Luke 3:38

Quote

It says he was a regular man that the Holy Spirit Son of God worked THROUGH.

Not a “regular man” because He was the only sinless man and He was born of a virgin (due to God's foreknowledge).

Quote

But we know from many scriptures that Jesus WAS the “only begotten Son of God”, right?

The flesh side was the unique Son of God. I have shown you this.
The word used “only Son” or “only begotten” means “unique Son” – if I knew where my post was regarding this I would re-post it… !

Quote

2B, answer my question about Mark 1.  Do you believe God said “You are my Son” to the Spirit who descended upon Jesus and led him into the wilderness? Or do you think He said those words about Jesus himself?

I believe that he said those words to the flesh Son who was called by he name of Yahshua. BUT the Holy Spirit's name could also have been Yahshua (If you follow)

[terraricca]

2bee

Quote

Hi T, Quote how can an man born without a human father be called 100% human ? How can a man born without a human father be called 100% human? Well, Adam was made without a human father, and He was 100% human. Also it is fact that people can be born from Virgins, though they are usually female and usually exactly identical to their mother. Quote Adam was a new creation Christ his not a new creation He was when He was risen from the dead (a new creation).

you are short of the truth ,Adam was a new creation at birth ,Christ was not a new creation at birth and so never was a new creation at his resurrection ,but your religion faith has been made in your heart I can see ,so until you let the scriptures be the only words in your mind and heart ,then you will see it the way I see it ,

when Christ was a new creation their was no universe around

[abe]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 25 2013,18:14)

2bee Quote Hi T, Quote how can an man born without a human father be called 100% human ? How can a man born without a human father be called 100% human? Well, Adam was made without a human father, and He was 100% human. Also it is fact that people can be born from Virgins, though they are usually female and usually exactly identical to their mother. Quote Adam was a new creation Christ his not a new creation He was when He was risen from the dead (a new creation). you are short of the truth ,Adam was a new creation at birth ,Christ was not a new creation at birth and so never was a new creation at his resurrection ,but your religion faith has been made in your heart I can see ,so until you let the scriptures be the only words in your mind and heart ,then you will see it the way I see it , when Christ was a new creation their was no universe around

Hi T,

Col.1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Rev.1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the FIRSTBORN of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood-

Firstborn of the DEAD.

Peace brother..

[Author]

Posts