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Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 22 2013,18:59) and so any other called god would not be the ALMIGHTY GOD but be lower ,right so simple ,elementary (WATSON)
Touche'
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 22 2013,10:06) 1….> that Jesus was a God 2….> that Jesus preexisted his berth on this earth.
3…..> that Jesus did not come into his existence as a born human being.
These constitutes what John described as Antichrist.
Hmmmm………….I believe all three of those things, Gene, so maybe I'm a Gnostic.
But I'm not seeing where John listed ANY of those three things as constituting the antichrist.
It is the one who doesn't believe Jesus CAME in the flesh that is the antichrist, right? And I surely believe Jesus CAME in the flesh.
I think you are confusing “has come in the flesh” with “came into existence in the flesh”. Are you able to see the difference between what John actually wrote, and what you're interpreting his words to mean?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 23 2013,09:23) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2013,13:45) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 22 2013,19:52) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2013,11:13) If you do then you communicate it poorly.
k
or you are deaf,and blind
T,“EMPHATICALLY” is an erroneous belief as it makes more than one god creators.
That's not even close to being true, Kerwin. The fact that there ARE scripturally MANY elohim says nothing about there being many “god creators”. Just tell it like the scriptures tell it, man.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2013,13:45) Jehovah is god in the absolute while others are god in the relative.
And I suppose if there was a scripture in which Jehovah claimed to be the only “elohim IN THE ABSOULUTE”, I would take His statement as a literal one.But as it is, He claims that there are no elohim besides Him. And since scriptures teach of many elohim, Jehovah was either speaking emphatically when He said those words, or He was lying. Which one do you think, Kerwin?
Mike,I believe what you say is untrue because I know that all other gods are gods only in their likeness to Jehovah while he is god because he is god.
There was only one god at creation any other of his created were but tools in his hand.
Jehovah is the first and the last, the a and the z. There is no God but him.
Mike………. If you believe all three of those thing i wrote, you are no different then a Gnostic, because you have bought into their teachings that corrupted the truth about Jesus. I have tried over and over, over the years to get you people to see that Mike.
You believe the “WORD” who was God became Flesh. I do not believe that at all. I believe a Man named Jesus, who came from the roots of Jesse was Born as a Simple Human being, With God forming part of his DNA “Another Adam”, on “that day” was a uniquely begotten son of God born, the Spirit of God came on Him at the Jordan and started to Led him to do “IT'S” Work and sent him out into the Word to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. All who have the Holy Spirit of God in them are Sons of God even Now. Jesus communicated God over and over as “OUR” Father not Just His.
No Word ever can be “MADE” FLESH that is an Oxymoron a word can not be flesh, A word derives it source from Spirit and Spirit is not Flesh and God is Spirit. A word can only come to be (IN) a Flesh Person, and that is a Emphatic statement, you can take it to the bank Mike.
The word was made flesh simply means came to be. The Word which is Spirit came to be “IN” the man Jesus . That “word is and was God”. God was “IN” Jesus reconciling the world unto himself, That reconciling work was God the Father working in a Man, the man Jesus.
You talk about the word of God does not really mean what it says Literally and Yet you Emphatically believe a word can be made flesh. I can understand how a word can come to be “IN “Flesh but actually be “MADE” Flesh No way , back then or now is that possible Mike.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Mike………Speaking of what Kerwin was saying, God created everything in existence so his effects are in everything right. We are told the Hidden Attributes of God can be seen by the things created right? So we can say a little of God is in all thing made by him.
Man is created in his very IMAGE we are told, So we have more of his attributes in us the the rest of creation IMO, But no matter how much of his attributes we have in us to reflect God's Nature, none of that makes us a God or a little god either, Why because there is “ONLY ONE GOD, and we are his created Son and Daughters Created for Glory and HONOR and give control of all things except Him as stated in Hebrews “when we say all things it is evident it does not include God” .
But everything else is subjected under the foot of man in the future and is already under Jesus the First Man raised from the dead feet. What you see in Jesus is all of our calling in the future and even now to become Like him in “EVERY” way.
Just like it say until we all come unto the Full measure and stature of Christ Jesus. This is God's plan for us all brother to become like Jesus in every way , we are his brothers and sisters from the same roots he is from “THE HUMAN RACE”, IMO
The teaching of SEPARATING Jesus from his human roots is a false teaching. It is man God is working with through a MAN and that man is Jesus the Christ. When he return he still will call himself a SON of MAN from the Root and offspring of Kind David. Just as he said he is in revelations.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 24 2013,04:11) Mike………. If you believe all three of those thing i wrote, you are no different then a Gnostic, because you have bought into their teachings that corrupted the truth about Jesus. I have tried over and over, over the years to get you people to see that Mike. You believe the “WORD” who was God became Flesh. I do not believe that at all. I believe a Man named Jesus, who came from the roots of Jesse was Born as a Simple Human being, With God forming part of his DNA “Another Adam”, on “that day” was a uniquely begotten son of God born, the Spirit of God came on Him at the Jordan and started to Led him to do “IT'S” Work and sent him out into the Word to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. All who have the Holy Spirit of God in them are Sons of God even Now. Jesus communicated God over and over as “OUR” Father not Just His.
No Word ever can be “MADE” FLESH that is an Oxymoron a word can not be flesh, A word derives it source from Spirit and Spirit is not Flesh and God is Spirit. A word can only come to be (IN) a Flesh Person, and that is a Emphatic statement, you can take it to the bank Mike.
The word was made flesh simply means came to be. The Word which is Spirit came to be “IN” the man Jesus . That “word is and was God”. God was “IN” Jesus reconciling the world unto himself, That reconciling work was God the Father working in a Man, the man Jesus.
You talk about the word of God does not really mean what it says Literally and Yet you Emphatically believe a word can be made flesh. I can understand how a word can come to be “IN “Flesh but actually be “MADE” Flesh No way , back then or now is that possible Mike.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Amen Gene. Well said!
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,01:36) Mike, I believe what you say is untrue because I know that all other gods are gods only in their likeness to Jehovah while he is god because he is god.
Jehovah is the first and the last, the a and the z. There is no God but him.
Okay Kerwin,Let's re-write your statement WITHOUT capital letters, and using the word “elohim” instead of “god”.
Mike,
I believe what you say is untrue because I know that all other elohim are elohim only in their likeness to Jehovah while he is elohim because he is elohim.
Jehovah is the first and the last, the a and the z. There is no elohim but him.
Do you see now how the two statements contradict each other? You say there is no elohim but Jehovah, but then explain WHY those others ARE elohim. It's like you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 23 2013,09:11) Mike………. If you believe all three of those thing i wrote, you are no different then a Gnostic, because you have bought into their teachings that corrupted the truth about Jesus.
Gene,I don't know anything about Gnostics. BUT……. if the three things you listed in that other post are what the Gnostics believe, then I am a Gnostic according to those three things.
Now, are you going to just keep slinging the word “Gnostic” around, as if it is some kind of cuss word? Or were you planning on scripturally showing us that they were wrong about those three things?
Also, you might show some scriptural support that the Gnostics, and those three beliefs, are what John was calling the antichrist.
As far as I can tell from your own words, the Gnostics DID believe that Jesus “has come in the flesh”. How then, does that belief go AGAINST what John said about the antichrist?
Because he said people that DON'T believe Jesus has come in the flesh are the antichrist, right? But the Gnostics DID believe Jesus had come in the flesh, right?Please explain.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 23 2013,09:11) I can understand how a word can come to be “IN “Flesh but actually be “MADE” Flesh No way……………
So what you're saying is that because you personally can't understand 1:14 AS IT WAS WRITTEN, it is okay to ALTER the words of scripture to conform them into a teaching that you personally CAN understand? Hmmmm…………..As far as “no way a word can be MADE flesh”, consider this:
Jesus is called “the Word” because he is the spokesman for God. He is not a LITERAL spoken word, but called that as a TITLE. Just like the King of Abyssinia had a spokesman who was called “the word of the king”.
Are you able to wrap your head around this, Gene? Can you comprehend that a BEING was given the TITLE “the Word” because that BEING was a SPOKESMAN for someone else?
If you are able to wrap your head around this very simple fact that is even secularly supported by the King of Abyssinia and his spokesman, then you will be able to accept that a LITERAL word did not become flesh. Instead, it was a BEING who was called by the TITLE “the Word”, who became flesh.
Just think it out, man. Your “rebuttals” are silly. For example, Mike, a spoken word cannot become flesh! really has NOTHING at all to do with 1:14 – because that verse doesn't speak of a spoken word becoming flesh.
I want you to say the following statement, Gene – or forever hold your peace on this subject:
Mike, a BEING who has the TITLE, “the Word”, can in no way be made flesh.
You need to say that statement, Gene. Because your silliness about some spoken word becoming flesh isn't even what 1:14 is about, and is therefore a waste of space on this forum.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2013,16:54) So far, we've learned that the following things cannot be scripturally refuted: 1. John 1:1c can be faithfully translated as “and the Word was a god”. (Many expert Greek scholars, plus the simple FACT that it CAN be translated that way.)
2. And the Word was a god: (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)
3. He was with God in the beginning: (John 17:5)
4. All things were made through him: (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)
5. In him was life, and that life was the light of men: (John 5:26, John 8:12)
6. The light shines in the darkness: (Matthew 4:16; John 3:19; 2 Corinthians 4:6)
7. John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning that light: (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)
8. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world: (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 3:19, 9:5, 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)
9. Though he was in the world, the world did not recognize him: (Isaiah 53:3, John 4:10, Acts 13:27, John 12:37-38, 1 John 3:1)
10. He came to that which was his own: (Col 1:16; Matt 11:27; John 3:35, 13:3, 16:15; Eph 1:10; Heb 1:2)
11. but his own did not receive him: (Luke 9:53; John 5:43; Acts 13:46)
12. to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God: (Acts 4:12; John 3:14-16; Gal 3:26; Heb 2:10; Eph 1:5)
Moving on…………………
14a
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.Supporting scriptures:
1 John 1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.1 John 4:2
Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.Philippians 2
6 Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of a human being.Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do……., God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.Galatians 4
4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.
Hi Mike,Col.1:18 And he is the HEAD of the BODY, the church, who is the Beginning, the FIRSTBORN From The DEAD, that in all things he may have the preeminence.
Rev.1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the Firstborn From The Dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood.
Peace brother.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,12:51) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 23 2013,09:11) I can understand how a word can come to be “IN “Flesh but actually be “MADE” Flesh No way……………
So what you're saying is that because you personally can't understand 1:14 AS IT WAS WRITTEN, it is okay to ALTER the words of scripture to conform them into a teaching that you personally CAN understand? Hmmmm…………..As far as “no way a word can be MADE flesh”, consider this:
Jesus is called “the Word” because he is the spokesman for God. He is not a LITERAL spoken word, but called that as a TITLE. Just like the King of Abyssinia had a spokesman who was called “the word of the king”.
Are you able to wrap your head around this, Gene? Can you comprehend that a BEING was given the TITLE “the Word” because that BEING was a SPOKESMAN for someone else?
If you are able to wrap your head around this very simple fact that is even secularly supported by the King of Abyssinia and his spokesman, then you will be able to accept that a LITERAL word did not become flesh. Instead, it was a BEING who was called by the TITLE “the Word”, who became flesh.
Just think it out, man. Your “rebuttals” are silly. For example, Mike, a spoken word cannot become flesh! really has NOTHING at all to do with 1:14 – because that verse doesn't speak of a spoken word becoming flesh.
I want you to say the following statement, Gene – or forever hold your peace on this subject:
Mike, a BEING who has the TITLE, “the Word”, can in no way be made flesh.
You need to say that statement, Gene. Because your silliness about some spoken word becoming flesh isn't even what 1:14 is about, and is therefore a waste of space on this forum.
Mike………..Were not talking about “TITLES” now are we? in regards to the word became flesh thing. You say because i can't understand how a word can become flesh , that is right and neither can you or anyone else either. Words are Spirit derived not flesh derived . Spirit is Spirit , God is a Spirit and his words are derived from his own spirit , just as your word are derived from your spirit , Mike you and yours words are the exact same thing, Just as God and His words are the same thing.Trying to throw what i am saying off by your usual switch tactics is useless. Produce a scripture that say a word is flesh part of anything, and you might have a point.
Jesus said the words he was telling us are spirit and life no where did he say they are flesh nor did he say they are some applied title to him because he himself was the words he spoke, remember he said “the word i am telling you are not mine but the “WORDS” of HIM who sent me”.
Produce a flesh word or anyone who ever saw a “flesh” word and you might have a point. If you can't then i will continue to believe that those Words derived from the Spirit of God which was “IN” Jesus was God speaking “through” him just as he said,
God and his word are ONE and the same, and no matter how much you want and try to break that up you simple can't. If you are ever to become one with God the father you must as Jesus did submit to his words no matter who is speaking them. If you do you will become one with God and Jesus and all Saints of God. Because there is ONLY ONE GOD and ONE Mediator between GOD and MAN and that is the “MAN” Jesus.
peace and love to you and yours Mike…………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 24 2013,08:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,12:51)
Jesus is called “the Word” because he is the spokesman for God. He is not a LITERAL spoken word, but called that as a TITLE.Just like the King of Abyssinia had a spokesman who was called “Kal Hatze”, which means “the word of the king”.
Gene, are you able to comprehend that a BEING was given the TITLE “the word of the king” because that BEING was a SPOKESMAN for the king?
Mike………..Were not talking about “TITLES” now are we?
Yes Gene, we actually are. We are talking about “the Word of God”, which is but one of Jesus' MANY titles.Please read the information in the quote box above, about the King of Abyssinia, and his spokesman who is called “the word of the king”.
Then, DIRECTLY answer the bolded, super-sized part.
You either ARE able to comprehend that the King of Abyssinia had a spokesman who went by the title, “the word of the king” – or you are NOT able to comprehend it.
I need to know which one, Gene. Because if you are unable to comprehend this historical fact, I really have no need to go further in this discussion with you. After all, it would be a waste of time trying to teach a mouse how to use the internet, right? Because there is no way a mouse could comprehend such things, right?
So that's why I need to know whether or not you are able to comprehend this information about Kal Hatze. Because if you can't, this whole thing is just a waste of time.
So please DIRECTLY let me know whether or not you are capable of comprehending the fact that the King of Abyssinia had a spokesman who had the title, “the word of the king”.
Can you comprehend this? YES or NO?
Thanks.
Quote (abe @ Feb. 23 2013,23:26) Hi Mike, Col.1:18 And he is the HEAD of the BODY, the church, who is the Beginning, the FIRSTBORN From The DEAD, that in all things he may have the preeminence.
Rev.1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the Firstborn From The Dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood.
Peace brother.
Peace to you as well, Abe.Sorry, but I don't see the connection, and therefore don't understand what you are teaching with those scriptures.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,17:14) You either ARE able to comprehend that the King of Abyssinia had a spokesman who went by the title, “the word of the king” – or you are NOT able to comprehend it.
Gene?Avoidance doesn't help your case.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2013,04:17) Jesus said the words he was telling us are spirit and life no where did he say they are flesh nor did he say they are some applied title to him because he himself was the words he spoke, remember he said “the word i am telling you are not mine but the “WORDS” of HIM who sent me”.
Okay, words are spirit.And the Word became flesh is Jesus.
So that would mean that a spirit came in the flesh or partook of flesh.
And what is written?
Although he existed in the form of God (what is God? Spirit?) he emptied himself and came in the flesh.
Welcome to the club Gene. Now that you understand that a spirit can partake of a flesh body, you need to talk to your ex-cohorts who still believe as you once did.
T8…….Well at lest you do acknowledge that a Word is not Flesh but Spirit, That is at least a start. Now who else is “Sprit” is not God the Father “SPIRIT”? Yes or NO Please.
Now tell us this was Jesus a “SPIRIT” or a flesh and blood Man, better known as a SON OF (from) MAN. Yes or NO PLease
Now was God who is SPIRIT Dwelling (IN) Jesus as He said He was? Yes or NO PLease
Now is God and His words one and the same thing, just as You and Your words are ONE and the same thing? Yes or No Please
Now did Jesus not say the “WORDS” he was speaking to us were not “HIS” Words ? Yes or No Please
Now do you see Jesus' name mentioned anywhere in John 1:1? Yes or No Please.
Now do you think if John meant Jesus in John 1:1 he could not have simply written Jesus' Name there. Yes or No Please
Does scripture say that Jesus would come from the ROOTS of Jesse? Yes or NO Please
Does Scripture say Jesus is the root and Ofspring of King David? Yes or No Please
Now did Moses say God would raise up a Prophet Like Him from among the Childern of Isreal ?, Yes or No Please
Now did Jesus ever say he was alive as a sentinel Being before the whole world was created, Yes or No Please
Now Do you have any scripture that shows “ANY” activity of Jesus before his berth on the earth, Yes or No Please.
T8……..Your religion of SEPARATION is nothing more than a false teaching and turns the Image of Jesus (a MAN) into a god and is a corruption of the truth of God. It is a work of iniquity and is Antichrist , This LIE is the LIE Paul was talking about in 2Ths2 it transforms the image of the Man Jesus into a false image of him being a Preexisting god, and this gives Him an Image of a MAN of SIN. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene
Mike…….Mike what make you thing I don't know and understand that Jesus was God Spokesmen on earth and he could have a “TITLE” as God's Word. When you say the word Became Flesh, are you talking about a Title or are your saying the word actually became (as in came to be) Actually Flesh, Which is it man, it cant be both now can it? If you are saying it is a title i agree a Person can have a title as that. I full well know Jesus was speaking “God's” word to us, i have no problem with that or him receiving a “title” of the word of God, But none of that Make “HIM” HIMSELF the WORDS (THEM SELF) , as if He “was” those word he spoke. Get what i am saying Mike?
peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
G
Quote Does scripture say that Jesus would come from the ROOTS of Jesse? Yes or NO Please Does Scripture say Jesus is the root and Ofspring of King David? Yes or No Please
COULD YOU SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURES THIS ABOVE
;Mt 1:1 A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
Mt 1:15 Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
Mt 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Lk 1:27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.TELL ME WAS JOSEPH THE FATHER OF JESUS
YES OR NO ,??? if you say no then how could Jesus be the ROOT OF JESSE Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2013,09:25) Jesus was God Spokesmen on earth and he could have a “TITLE” as God's Word. If you are saying it is a title i agree a Person can have a title as that.
I full well know Jesus was speaking “God's” word to us, i have no problem with that or him receiving a “title” of the word of God.
Great, Gene! It seems we now agree that one of Jesus' many titles was “The Word of God”.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2013,09:25) When you say the word Became Flesh, are you talking about a Title or are your saying the word actually became (as in came to be) Actually Flesh, Which is it man,
Actually neither, Gene. I'm saying it was the PERSON who bears the title, “The Word of God”, that became flesh.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2013,09:25) Get what i am saying Mike?
I do understand what you're saying, Gene. I just don't understand why in the world you would come to the conclusion that our only two choices are:1. A spoken word itself became flesh.
2. A title itself became flesh.I agree with you that neither of those two choices make a lick of sense. But perhaps your doctrine has been blinding your eyes to the simple and obvious THIRD option.
Consider Kal Hatze, the spokesman for the king. Let's say he died, and the king had the following declared throughout the land: Everyone in the land of Abyssinia must mourn three days for the word of the king, since he has perished unexpectedly.
Would you think that the people had to mourn for:
1. A spoken word itself?
2. A title itself?Or would you naturally understand that the people had to mourn for:
3. The PERSON who had borne the TITLE, “The Word of the King”?
Of course you would easily understand #3 as the ONLY sensible and logical choice, right?
And how about in Revelation 19:13? Do you suppose:
1. It is a literal spoken word that rides the white horse?
2. It is the title itself that rides the white horse?OR……………
3. It is the PERSON who bears the TITLE “The Word of God” who rides the white horse?
I assume you would naturally and sensibly answer #3. Am I right, Gene? Please let me know.
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