In the Beginning

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2013,09:52)

Mike, Gene, kerwin, etc,

Jesus was likely just looking for a measure of faith within the boy by asking Him a question. The boy did not respond with faith.

Maybe there should be a topic listing all of Jesus' questions and which ones were answered correctly and which ones weren't.

LU,

That is a given.

He stuck around after being told only Jehovah is good though he fell away a short time later.

February 20, 2013 at 4:19 am#336347

Participant

Kerwin,
If the boy said in response, “but Sir, you are good…are you our LORD?” I believe that Jesus would have commended him for his faith like he did Thomas and Peter when they responded well.

February 20, 2013 at 5:03 am#336348

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2013,09:36)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 17 2013,09:43)

……if there are no other “TRUE” God;s , then Mike should understand all other so-called Gods are “FALSE” God's .

Okay Gene. We are getting to the place I wanted to take you. It is a fact of scripture that Jesus is called by the title “god”. So are you claiming that your Lord and Savior is a FALSE god? YES or NO?

(Kerwin has already plainly told us all that his Lord Jesus Christ is “EVIL”. Will you now join his ranks and call your Lord a “false god”?)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 17 2013,09:43)

I do understand Mikes point that the word Elohim implies Powers and that can be at different levels in word structure………..

Wow. Now was that so hard, Gene? So since Satan is also a very powerful being that Jehovah created, he can rightly be called “elohim”, right? (Just like he IS called in scripture, right?)

And the same would go for Jesus, Michael, Gabriel……. and even Samuel and Deborah, right? (Since Jesus, angels and humans ARE called elohim in scripture, right?)

Now does it mean that ANY OF THEM compare to the one elohim who created all things? Of course not.

Does it mean we should worship these others who are called elohim in scripture? Of course not – for we are to worship the Creator, not any of His creations.

BUT………….. Does it mean that all these servants of Jehovah are “false gods”? Absolutely not.

And THIS is what the scriptures actually teach: There are MANY GODS and MANY LORDS, both IN HEAVEN, and ON EARTH. But EMPHATICALLY SPEAKING, for us Christians, there is but ONE God, Jehovah, and ONE Lord, Jesus Christ.

(Does this mean that Jehovah is NOT also a lord? Of course not. Does it mean that Satan and Jesus are NOT also gods? Of course not. Why? Because Paul was speaking EMPHATICALLY about Jesus being the ONLY lord. Likewise, he was speaking EMPHATICALLY about Jehovah being the ONLY god. And how can we know this? Because he started his statement by plainly and clearly telling us that there ARE INDEED MANY GODS – both IN HEAVEN and ON EARTH.)

At any rate, it's nice to finally hear you acknowledge what I've been saying all along. (Thanks to 2B and Kerwin for your help in this matter.)

Mike…… No scripture says that Jesus is a god big or little , please show a scripture wher Jesus ever said he was a god of any kind. When confronted about him making him self as a God , why did he not just as yes I am a big GOD or a liTtle god ? But he instead responded by saying he was a son of God but never said he was a god ever. Why was that Mike?

As fare as a son of God goes , all of man kind who have the Spirit of God in them are sons of God. But none of that makes them GOD'S big or little.

You can preach and believe as you chose , but you will never convince me Jesus is a true God big or little . Emphatic or not.

This whole idea of Jesus being desplayed as a God is what creates the false image of him , (a LIE) about Jesus which turns the “image” of Jesus into the MAN OF SIN spoken about in 2Ths 2. It is an “iniquity” (the breaking of the commandments of God, you shall have “NO”
GODS besides me Mike I will stay with what God the Father and Jesus has said . IMO

As far as being good goes , God said he looked for one righteous man and found none , and again there was none that doth good, no not even one . I am just recalling those scripture form memory so they might not be exactly right I will have to look them up again.

Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

February 20, 2013 at 5:53 am#336351

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 20 2013,09:19)

Kerwin,
If the boy said in response, “but Sir, you are good…are you our LORD?” I believe that Jesus would have commended him for his faith like he did Thomas and Peter when they responded well.

LU,

The boy could have verbalized his belief by stating that he believed that God was in Jesus doing his works as Jesus is the holy one he sent.

The words glorify God and not Jesus.

February 20, 2013 at 6:00 am#336352

2besee

Participant

Hi Gene,
I hear what you are saying, and agree in part and disagree in part, mostly with 2nd Thes, but that is a different topic.

With that scripture that you were looking for, where God said that none was found good:

Revelations 5:

[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?”
[3] And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,
[4] and I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to into into it.
[5] Then one of the elders said to me, “Weep not; lo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Just reminding you of that scripture.
Peace.

February 20, 2013 at 6:05 am#336353

Participant

Hi Kerwin,
Jesus is worthy of all honor! He is the First and the Last! The Alpha and Omega!

February 20, 2013 at 9:04 am#336361

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 20 2013,11:05)

Hi Kerwin,
Jesus is worthy of all honor! He is the First and the Last! The Alpha and Omega!

Lightenup,

He is the first and last Heir of God.
He is the A and Z Heir of God.

We give glory to Jehovah while Jehovah give glory to his Son.

Matthew 5:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Jesus is the Pioneer and Perfecter of the true faith.

February 20, 2013 at 1:53 pm#336368

Participant

Kerwin,
You are adding words to scriptures.

February 20, 2013 at 4:12 pm#336372

Participant

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 20 2013,16:00)

Hi Gene,
I hear what you are saying, and agree in part and disagree in part, mostly with 2nd Thes, but that is a different topic.

With that scripture that you were looking for, where God said that none was found good:

Revelations 5:

Just reminding you of that scripture.
Peace.

2besee…….Thanks for the help brother, but below are the scriptures I was thinking of. What you have posted also proves the point , now we need to see how stubborn Mike is going to be on this , as if I don't already know. But I still love him anyway.

Mike………..Lets lay this thing about who is good to rest.

Psa 14:2-3………The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were “ANY” that did understand and seek God.(3) They are “ALL” together become filthy there is “NONE” that does good, NO NOT ONE.

Matt 19:17……. And he said unto them, why callest you me good ? There is “NONE” but one, that is “GOOD” but “ONE” GOD……..

Mar. 10:18……..And Jesus said unto him, why call you me good? There is “NONE” GOOD but one that is God

Luke 18:19…….And Jesus said unto him, why call you me good? “NONE” is good, save “ONE” , that is GOd

Rom3:12……….They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable ; there is “NONE” that does “GOOD” no “NOT ONE”.

Mike, there are others also, like where God said he looked for .”ONE” righteous man and found none , therefore he took it upon his own arm to bring salvation.

Remember also Jesus said to them ” you “BEING EVIL”. (That means existing in an evil state ) know how to give good gifts. He was acknowledging the state of man in a general sense. IMO

Paul also he found no good in him because to WILL WAS PRESENT I his body.

Good is a creation of God it is not something man already has, or why would we be still under “GRACE” , we would not need more grace if we were truly good ourselves Mike.

Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

February 20, 2013 at 4:41 pm#336373

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2013,22:53)

LU,

The boy could have verbalized his belief by stating that he believed that God was in Jesus doing his works as Jesus is the holy one he sent.

The words glorify God and not Jesus.

Right you are, Kerwin. In fact, ALL the words Jesus spoke were for the purpose of glorifying his God and our God. He never spoke to glorify himself. He pointed all glory to God.

The only thing Jesus ever asked of us for himself was to “do these things in remembrance of ME”. (Luke 22:19)

February 20, 2013 at 4:52 pm#336374

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 20 2013,09:12)

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 20 2013,16:00)

Hi Gene,
I hear what you are saying, and agree in part and disagree in part, mostly with 2nd Thes, but that is a different topic.

With that scripture that you were looking for, where God said that none was found good:

Revelations 5:

Just reminding you of that scripture.
Peace.

Mike………..Lets lay this thing about who is good to rest.

Matt 19:17……. And he said unto them, why callest you me good ? There is “NONE” but one, that is “GOOD” but “ONE” GOD……..

Mar. 10:18……..And Jesus said unto him, why call you me good? There is “NONE” GOOD but one that is God

Luke 18:19…….And Jesus said unto him, why call you me good? “NONE” is good, save “ONE” , that is GOd

Rom3:12……….They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable ; there is “NONE” that does “GOOD” no “NOT ONE”.

Hi Gene,

Here is another scripture to add to your list:

Micah 7:2
The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.

Now, is this a LITERAL statement by Micah? Or an EMPHATICAL one? Let's find out:

1. Do you suppose that Micah, the faithful prophet of God, INCLUDED HIMSELF in the statement? YES or NO?

2. Do you suppose that literally ALL men on earth were lying in wait for blood, hunting their brothers?

Or do you suppose it was an emphatical statement, indicating that the world, at large, had shifted away from God and toward evil?

I understand it as the latter. To understand it YOUR way would be to say that God's prophet Micah spent his days lying in wait to kill other human beings. Is that what you think? Was Micah a pre-mediating murderer of men?

February 20, 2013 at 5:17 pm#336375

Participant

Mike ……Again you contradict Jesus' very own word recorded in three gospels with your ” emphatic none emphatic garbage trying to twist clear scriptures to meet your own perceptions.

Hear is another one for you to work on, THE HEART IS DECEITFUL above all things, and desperately WICKED who can know it. That is speaking in a general sense, before God Changes it by his spirit, and if it is God who takes out of us the Stoney hearts that are wicked and changes them then he ONLY is the only source of GOOD , and if our goodness we have came from God and is installed in us by him, how can anyone say they are themselves good . Jesus was Absolutely EMPHATIC in what he said

Peace and love to you and yours Mike………………gene[

February 20, 2013 at 5:37 pm#336376

Blocked

Gene,

There are many scriptural examples of EMPHATICAL statements. Consider Romans 15:14, where Paul says, “you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge“.

Notice that the word “goodness” is the same Greek word used when Jesus said “only God is good”.

And notice that Paul says the disciples of Christ are filled with ALL knowledge.

Gene, do you believe that the disciples LITERALLY had ALL knowledge? Or do you believe Paul was speaking EMPHATICALLY when he said “ALL knowledge”?

Which one, please?

But perhaps the most obvious example of an EMPHATICAL statement in scripture is Psalm 8:6/1 Cor 15:27………

Psalm 8:6
…..you put everything under his feet.

Gene, do you believe that LITERALLY “everything” has been placed under the feet of man? Because LITERALLY EVERYTHING would also include God Himself, right? Read on…………….

1 Corinthians 15:27
Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

So you can see from 15:27 that Paul himself explains that those words from Psalm 8:6 were EMPHATICAL, and that the word “everything” WASN'T literal, because it DIDN'T include God Himself. He explains this obvious fact with the words, “IT IS CLEAR”.

And this is all I'm trying to get you to see, Gene. Things like this SHOULD BE “clear” to all of us. “IT IS CLEAR” that the words “all knowledge” in Romans 15:14 aren't LITERAL. And “IT IS CLEAR” that if Jehovah says there is no elohim besides Him, and then turns around and calls Satan the “elohim of Ekron” in 2 Kings 1:6, and says, “I said, 'ye are elohim' ” in Psalm 82:6, that the words “no elohim besides me” are NOT LITERAL.

Now you've already outlined your reasoning for Kerwin. You don't WANT to acknowledge these clear and simple things, because to do so would give merit to some of my claims about John 1. What a silly way to come to the truth of scriptures, Gene. It's like you're saying, “I don't WANT the truth of Point #1 to be manifested, so I will PRETEND that the truth of Point #2 is also flawed.”

Hmmmm………………

February 20, 2013 at 5:39 pm#336377

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 20 2013,10:17)

Mike ……Again you contradict Jesus' very own word recorded in three gospels with your ” emphatic none emphatic garbage trying to twist clear scriptures to meet your own perceptions.

I'm sorry Gene, but I thought I asked you some fairly direct questions about Micah in that last post.

ADDRESS THE QUESTIONS, or go talk to someone else, okay? (I'm tired of you avoiding my clear and DIRECT questions just to keep posting the same, tired, unscriptural drivel. There is a long list of questions you totally ignored on a previous page as well. Questions such as:

1. Who are the gods that Jehovah is the God of?
2. Who are the lords that Jehovah is the Lord of?
3. Why the title “God MOST HIGH” if there aren't indeed gods LESS HIGH?
4. Who are these “gods in heaven” that Paul speaks about in 1 Cor 8:5?

Start ANSWERING the questions I ask, or go have conversation with someone else. I'm not here to play games.)

February 20, 2013 at 6:23 pm#336378

Blocked

So far, we've learned that the following things cannot be scripturally refuted:

1. John 1:1c can be faithfully translated as “and the Word was a god”. (Many expert Greek scholars, plus the simple FACT that it CAN be translated that way.)

2. And the Word was a god: (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)

3. He was with God in the beginning: (John 17:5)

4. All things were made through him: (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)

5. In him was life, and that life was the light of men: (John 5:26, John 8:12)

6. The light shines in the darkness: (Matthew 4:16; John 3:19; 2 Corinthians 4:6)

7. John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning that light: (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)

8. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world: (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 3:19, 9:5, 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)

9. Though he was in the world, the world did not recognize him: (Isaiah 53:3, John 4:10, Acts 13:27, John 12:37-38, 1 John 3:1)

10. He came to that which was his own: (Col 1:16; Matt 11:27; John 3:35, 13:3, 16:15; Eph 1:10; Heb 1:2)

11. but his own did not receive him: (Luke 9:53; John 5:43; Acts 13:46)

Moving on:

12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Supporting scriptures:

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

John 3
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Galatians 3:26
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus………

Hebrews 2:10
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

And I don't know how I missed this one before, but I will add this verse to points #6 and #8 above:

John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

3:19 is CLEARLY about Jesus, and almost identically matches the the words of 1:5 and 1:9.

February 20, 2013 at 11:28 pm#336409

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 20 2013,18:53)

Kerwin,
You are adding words to scriptures.

LU,

Not really. I am putting inferred words into writing.

Jesus is Jehovah's Heir.

Matthew 21:38
King James Version (KJV)

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

I doubt you believe there is another Heir.

I already quoted Matthew 5:16 and then pointed out that Jesus pioneered our faith. The words “Follow me” tell us that. He does as he instructed us to do in Matthew 5:16 and other places.

Hebrews 12:2 states that he is the author and finisher of our faith. Author is equivalent to pioneer and finisher to perfecter.

February 21, 2013 at 3:28 am#336411

Participant

Quote

I am putting inferred words into writing.

Exactly, that is my point. They are YOUR inferred words which have a bias attached. Besides this verse states otherwise:

Romans 8:15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

I suppose one could come up with a number of things to 'infer' as the first and last (fill in the blank). We can't lean on our own understanding, Kerwin.

February 21, 2013 at 7:34 am#336422

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 21 2013,08:28)

Quote

I am putting inferred words into writing.

Exactly, that is my point. They are YOUR inferred words which have a bias attached. Besides this verse states otherwise:

I suppose one could come up with a number of things to 'infer' as the first and last (fill in the blank). We can't lean on our own understanding, Kerwin.

LU,

Infer means derived by logical reasoning.

You are claiming that I am incorrect and it is not inferred since Romans 8:15 states we are fellow heirs with Christ.

For that particular inheritance we are fellow heirs with Jesus; as those that believe inherit the Spirit, even as he did. That is not the inheritance I was speaking of.

I was speaking of the fact Jesus is the Heir of throne that is over all things that are in heaven and on earth. That is why I quoted Matthew 21:38.

February 21, 2013 at 3:58 pm#336432