In the Beginning

[2besee]

Mike,

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,11:19)

John 17 1  After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

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1.  Who does the scripture say prayed these things?  Jesus?  Or “the Holy Spirit speaking through Jesus”?

The Holy Spirit and Jesus were as if one (think Elijah and john the Baptist).

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2.  Is eternal life knowing God and “Jesus Christ, whom He sent”?  Or is it knowing God and “the Holy Spirit, whom He sent”?  Which one, please – according to the words of the scripture?

God and the Holy Spirit are one, just as your spirit and your mind are one. Jesus Christ is the anointed messiah/savior of the world. So this fits perfectly with that verse.

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3.  Who is asking to be glorifed with the glory HE HAD before the world began?  Jesus Christ, who actually uttered the prayer?  Or “the Holy Spirit speaking through Jesus Christ”?  (Again 2B, even if you answer “the Holy Spirit”, you must then accept that the Holy Spirit is an entity OTHER THAN God the Father, who had it's/his own glory in the Father's presence before the world began.  And in that case, it would still end up being “a god” who was with “THE God” in the beginning.)

It is an insult to call the Holy Spirit a god.

As to your question, “Who is asking to be glorified with the glory he had before the world began” – the Son, the Spirit. The Lord is the Spirit. And Jesus was one with the Spirit.

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Quote Yes. IN Jesus was life, and light. Then it's yet another perfect match with “the Word”, right? John 1:4 In him (the Word) was life, and that life was the light of men.

Logos means divine speech.
I have shown you scriptures that tell us this, and Greek proof!

In JESUS was life, and that life was the light of men. I understand this perfectly.

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2B, when it says “the Word was with God”, who do you think that “God” is?  Do you agree with me that the “God” mentioned in part b is “the Father”?

Yes. The Father is God. (what do you mean by “part b” though?)

[2besee]

Hi Mike,

You said,

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(Unless you believe that God the Father actually IS His own “Holy Spirit Son”.)

Nobody knows the Father but the Son (Matt 11:27). Nobody knows the thoughts of God but the spirit of God (1st Cor 2:11).
Add it up.

Spirit gives birth to spirit (John 3:6)

God is spirit, the Holy Spirit is spirit.

God is spirit, and those who worship him, must worship him, in spirit, and in truth (John 4:24)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 11 2013,17:04)

Hi Mike, You said, Quote (Unless you believe that God the Father actually IS His own “Holy Spirit Son”.) Add it up. Spirit gives birth to spirit (John 3:6) God is spirit, the Holy Spirit is spirit.

But you say the Holy Spirit IS God.  Did God “give birth” to Himself?  

You can't say the Holy Spirit is the SON OF God, and at the same time say it is the very God it is the SON OF.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 11 2013,16:55)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 1. Who does the scripture say prayed these things? Jesus? Or “the Holy Spirit speaking through Jesus”? The Holy Spirit and Jesus were as if one (think Elijah and john the Baptist).

So then the Holy Spirit OF God, who is also the Son OF God, and at the same time God HIMSELF, prayed to HIMSELF, and asked for glory from HIMSELF?

2B, you are digging a hole for yourself.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 11 2013,16:55)

Quote 2.  Is eternal life knowing God and “Jesus Christ, whom He sent”?  Or is it knowing God and “the Holy Spirit, whom He sent”?  Which one, please – according to the words of the scripture? God and the Holy Spirit are one, just as your spirit and your mind are one. Jesus Christ is the anointed messiah/savior of the world. So this fits perfectly with that verse.

Now you are just saying things.  Look, I can do it too:

Grass is green, and birds fly, so you can see it all fits perfectly with that verse.  

You say God and the Holy Spirit are one?  And you said that the words in this prayer were said by the Holy Spirit speaking through Jesus, right?

So first of all, we have God (the Holy Spirit) praying to HIMSELF.  

Then we have God (the Holy Spirit) saying, 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Why in the world is God referring to HIMSELF as “you”?

And what does it mean when the Holy Spirit God says this:

4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me…………..

God is calling Himself “you”, and talking about the work that He gave Himself to do?  And then God calls Himself “Father”, and asks Himself to glorify Himself? And all this while He is praying to HIMSELF? 

2B, you need to reconsider.  This is just too much.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 12 2013,01:34)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 11 2013,17:00) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 11 2013,06:12) Mike, Jesus did not existed until His conception on Earth, whereas, the Holy Spirit has always existed. 2bee were are your scriptures that says that ,because all scriptures are saying that he existed before the foundation of the earth ,that he is the first creation of God ,this is why he his the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD T, Show me where scriptures say that Jesus was the first creation of God. Also, Do you know what the anointing means? Do you also know that 1Six days later, Jesus took Peter, James, and his brother John and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2His appearance was changed in front of them, his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light. 3Suddenly, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Jesus. 4Then Peter told Jesus, “Lord, it’s good that we’re here! If you want, I’ll set up three shelters —one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5He was still speaking when a bright cloud suddenly overshadowed them. A voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love. I am pleased with him. Keep on listening to him!” 6When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 7But Jesus came up to them and touched them, saying, “Get up, and stop being afraid.” 8When they raised their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus all by himself. 9On their way down the mountain, Jesus ordered them, “Don’t tell anyone about this vision until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.” 10So the disciples asked him, “Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11He answered them, “Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things. 12But I tell you that Elijah has already come, yet people did not recognize him and treated him just as they pleased. In the same way, the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13Then the disciples understood that he had been speaking to them about John the Baptist. Elijah came, but was known as John the Baptist. Was John the Baptist a man, who had the Spirit of Elijah? Elias is come already – That is, John the Baptist has come, in the spirit and power of Elias.

2bb

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T, Show me where scriptures say that Jesus was the first creation of God.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

A voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love. I am pleased with him. Keep on listening to him!” DO YOU 2BE

ALL WHAT YOU SAY IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE ,AND YES I KNOW WHAT ANOINTING MEAN AND IS ,

BUT DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT ANOINTING HIS AND MEANS

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 11 2013,16:55)

Logos means divine speech.

The Greek word “logos” means “word” – and nothing more.

We can call the Bible the written “word” of God. And in that case, we could imply that this particular “word” is divine. But the English word “word” doesn't actually MEAN “divine word”.

Neither does the Greek word “logos”. It simply means “word”. And sometimes, when that “word” is “the word of God”, we can know that this particular word IS divine, since it's coming from God. But the Greek word “logos” doesn't MEAN “divine word”. It still just means “word”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 11 2013,16:55)

Yes. The Father is God. (what do you mean by “part b” though?)

John 1:1 is broken up into:

Part a – In the beginning was the Word.

Part b – And the Word was with God.

Part c – And the Word was ……………

So since you agree with the rest of the world that the “God” in part b is the Father, your interpretation says:

And the Holy Spirit was with the Father, and the Holy Spirit was the Father.

Is this your understanding?

(I'll address your last point – about calling the Holy Spirit “a god”, after you answer this one.)

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 12 2013,01:54)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 11 2013,12:14) So far, we've learned that the following things cannot be scripturally refuted: 1.  John 1:1c can be faithfully translated as “and the Word was a god”.  (Many expert Greek scholars) 2.  Jesus is called a god in scripture.  (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.) 3.  Jesus was with God before the world began.  (John 17:5) 4.  All things were said to have been made through our Lord Jesus Christ.  (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2) 5.  In Jesus was life.  (John 5:26) 6.  Jesus was the “light of the world”, and the “light of life”.  (John 8:12) 7.  Jesus was the light that shined in the darkness.  (Matthew 4:16, 2 Corinthians 4:6) Moving on……………. 6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. Who did John come to testify about? John 1 29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said……….. 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.” 34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God. John 3:26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.” John 5 32 There is another that bears witness about me, and I know that the witness which he bears about me is true. 33 You have dispatched men to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 36 But I have the witness greater than that of John………… Is there any question as to who John the Baptist came to prepare the way for and testify about?  Of course, this one was none other than Jesus Christ, our Lord. So once again, the very things said about “the Word” in John 1 are said about “Jesus” in many other scriptures.  The comparisons are really piling up, guys.  And I'm only about half way there. Mike, God is called the light in the world, I have shown you scripture. The light of God was seen in Jesus Christ the anointed. The Spirit of Elijah came as “John the Baptist”. The Holy Spirit came as “Jesus”. Your Son of God is a little god, preexisted as some type of created thing. The Son of God that i am learning about was not preexisted as some little god, but was the Holy Spirit of the one God.

2BEE

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Mike, God is called the light in the world, I have shown you scripture. The light of God was seen in Jesus Christ the anointed.

read those scriptures;;

His disciples came to him,
Mt 5:2 and he began to teach them, saying:
MT 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
JN 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “ I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
JN 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

you say it his God that his the light of the world ;but scriptures disagree with you ;the light of the world his Christ wen he was on earth and his disciples wen he left,

so could you show me your scripture that says what you claim

[kerwin]

Mike and all,

I believe God cannot be tempted by evil because his spirit is the only source of Love, similar to how a lake is the source of water. There is no other source of Love and his Love is greater than creation. In this way God is Love.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,12:16)

Mike and all, I believe God cannot be tempted by evil because his spirit is the only source of Love, similar to how a lake is the source of water.  There is no other source of Love and his Love is greater than creation.  In this way God is Love.

K

Why his God love ,???

God can not be tempted ,why would If he did ,then he would be weaker than his own creation ,because you get tempted by your own desires

So God desire and will his to do all things for the good of all,so because his desires are perfect in the fullness of the love he has he can not be tempted,

[2besee]

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,19:16)

Mike and all, I believe God cannot be tempted by evil because his spirit is the only source of Love, similar to how a lake is the source of water.  There is no other source of Love and his Love is greater than creation.  In this way God is Love.

Kerwin, Amen and also, there is no fear in God's love though scripture says to “fear God” – we know that it is different.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin Amen  and  you too 2besee ……..> , I also agree, God is the only true source of true Love . I (God) will take out of them the stony  heart and give them a heart of flesh *soft heart” and I (God) will write my Laws on their inward Parts, and they shall be my people and I will be their God  and again For you brethren have not received the Spirit of Fear but of “LOVE” and Power and of a sound Mind.

There is none Good but one and that is GOD, just as Jesus Said , and that God can give us of his spirit and cause us to love one another , just as Jesus loved us and gave himself for us all by the Spirit of God that is in him.

peace and love to you both and yours…………………………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,10:12)

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 11 2013,16:55) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 1.  Who does the scripture say prayed these things?  Jesus?  Or “the Holy Spirit speaking through Jesus”? The Holy Spirit and Jesus were as if one (think Elijah and john the Baptist). So then the Holy Spirit OF God, who is also the Son OF God, and at the same time God HIMSELF, prayed to HIMSELF, and asked for glory from HIMSELF? 2B, you are digging a hole for yourself.

Mike…….The Holy Spirit of God PRODUCES , Sons of GOD, just as the Spirit of the DEVIL “produces” children of the Devil.

The problem her is not understanding WHAT A “SPIRIT” IS, and how “it” can act “in” a person. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

[2besee]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 13 2013,02:42)

Kerwin Amen  and  you too 2besee ……..> , I also agree, God is the only true source of true Love . I (God) will take out of them the stony  heart and give them a heart of flesh *soft heart” and I (God) will write my Laws on their inward Parts, and they shall be my people and I will be their God  and again For you brethren have not received the Spirit of Fear but of “LOVE” and Power and of a sound Mind. There is none Good but one and that is GOD, just as Jesus Said , and that God can give us of his spirit and cause us to love one another , just as Jesus loved us and gave himself for us all by the Spirit of God that is in him. peace and love to you both and yours…………………………………..gene

Amen Gene.
Much more to say but will get back to this and Mikes posts and any others later, I am busy looking into other scripture in another thread at the moment.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 12 2013,12:37)

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,12:16) Mike and all, I believe God cannot be tempted by evil because his spirit is the only source of Love, similar to how a lake is the source of water.  There is no other source of Love and his Love is greater than creation.  In this way God is Love. K Why his God love ,??? God can not be tempted ,why would If he did ,then he would be weaker than his own creation ,because you get tempted by your own desires So God desire and will his to do all things for the good of all,so because his desires are perfect in the fullness of the love he has he can not be tempted,

T,

It is explicit stated twice in Scripture that he who is God is Love, 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:8.

It is explicitly stated in Romans 13:9 that Jehovah's commands are summed up in the command to Love.

Galatians 5:14 and James 2:8 paraphrase that teaching.

The fruit of the Spirit is fulfillment of the Law, Galatians 5:16 & Galatians 5:22-23.

Those who live by the Spirit Love.

It is impossible for Jehovah not to live by the Spirit, James 1:13.

There is only one Spirit, Ephesians 4:4, Ephesians 2:18, 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Corinthians 6:17, and Philippians 1:27.

That one Spirit is Jehovah's.  Because that Spirit is Jehovah's only he is good, Mark 10: 17-18, Matthew 19:16-17, and Luke 18:18-19, and anyone else that is good is good only because Jehovah dwells in them through that one Spirit, 1 Corinthians 3:16 and Ephesians 2:22.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 13 2013,07:29)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 12 2013,12:37) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,12:16) Mike and all, I believe God cannot be tempted by evil because his spirit is the only source of Love, similar to how a lake is the source of water.  There is no other source of Love and his Love is greater than creation.  In this way God is Love. K Why his God love ,??? God can not be tempted ,why would If he did ,then he would be weaker than his own creation ,because you get tempted by your own desires So God desire and will his to do all things for the good of all,so because his desires are perfect in the fullness of the love he has he can not be tempted, T, It is explicit stated twice in Scripture that he who is God is Love, 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:8. It is explicitly stated in Romans 13:9 that Jehovah's commands are summed up in the command to Love. Galatians 5:14 and James 2:8 paraphrase that teaching. The fruit of the Spirit is fulfillment of the Law, Galatians 5:16 & Galatians 5:22-23. Those who live by the Spirit Love. It is impossible for Jehovah not to live by the Spirit, James 1:13. There is only one Spirit, Ephesians 4:4, Ephesians 2:18, 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Corinthians 6:17, and Philippians 1:27. That one Spirit is Jehovah's.  Because that Spirit is Jehovah's only he is good, Mark 10: 17-18, Matthew 19:16-17, and Luke 18:18-19, and anyone else that is good is good only because Jehovah dwells in them through that one Spirit, 1 Corinthians 3:16 and Ephesians 2:22.

Kerwin………….Right on brother.

Peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

[2besee]

Amen Kerwin.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 12 2013,00:37)

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,12:16) Mike and all, I believe God cannot be tempted by evil because his spirit is the only source of Love, similar to how a lake is the source of water.  There is no other source of Love and his Love is greater than creation.  In this way God is Love. K God can not be tempted………. If he did ,then he would be weaker than his own creation………..

What is there to tempt God WITH?

He already owns everything there is.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 12 2013,09:48)

Mike, The Holy Spirit of God PRODUCES Sons of GOD……….

Are those SONS the very God whose Spirit produced them?

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