- This topic has 3,161 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 8 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,16:21) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,21:10) Please explain. To your understanding.
The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. He is not God's Holy Spirit. He was, however, many times FILLED WITH God's Holy Spirit, right?Now, answer my question: Are we ALL the same eternal spirit? Or do we each have OUR OWN spirits?
(By answering this one simple question, your point will be refuted WITHOUT me having to do a step by step exegisis of the large passage you quoted. Answering this question will prove that there is not LITERALLY only ONE spirit in existence, thereby refuting your claim that Jesus must BE that spirit.)
Mike,
That does not answer my question.
I asked you to explain both of those chapters that I gave you (1Corinthians 12:1-11 and 2Corinthians 3:12-18).6th post from the top.
2BEE
Quote He is a 'new creation'. 'Therefore, if anyone is in the Messiah, he is a new creation. Old things have disappeared, and—look!—all things have become new!' 2Cor 5:17
wen we come to Christ with our sinful flesh and sinful ways of thinking ,WE ARE DEAD AS FAR THAT GOD HIS CONCERN ,but now if we change this around by removing our sinful nature and replace it with Godly knowledge and understanding and deeds in our actions at that point how much his left of that dead person
nothing because he as now become reborn in the spirit of God 's son by his new faith ,the faith that give live ,and so now his declared alive before God Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,21:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,16:21) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,21:10) Please explain. To your understanding.
The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. He is not God's Holy Spirit. He was, however, many times FILLED WITH God's Holy Spirit, right?Now, answer my question: Are we ALL the same eternal spirit? Or do we each have OUR OWN spirits?
(By answering this one simple question, your point will be refuted WITHOUT me having to do a step by step exegisis of the large passage you quoted. Answering this question will prove that there is not LITERALLY only ONE spirit in existence, thereby refuting your claim that Jesus must BE that spirit.)
Mike,
That does not answer my question.
I asked you to explain both of those chapters that I gave you (1Corinthians 12:1-11 and 2Corinthians 3:12-18).6th post from the top.
2B,READ THE WORDS IN THE PARENTHESIS. I won't need to go through this LONG passage of scripture (thereby derailing this discussion even further) if you would just answer my simple question.
THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION WILL PROVE YOUR CONCLUSION WRONG, 2B. And that will save us BOTH a lot of time and effort. Then, perhaps some other time, in some other thread, I will take the time to painstakingly explain my thoughts on that passage.
Right now, the bottom line is that YOU are claiming Jesus IS the Holy Spirit of God because of the words “one spirit” and “one Lord”. That conclusion does NOT match the rest of scripture (like the ones where Jesus is FILLED WITH the Holy Spirit) – and is therefore FLAWED.
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,21:24) Mike,
My understanding of “firstborn over all of creation” is from scripture.He is a 'new creation'.
Okay 2B. When you can show me the words “NEW creation” in Colossians 1, I will join your understanding.On the other hand, if that scripture teaches that EVERYTHING in heaven and on earth was created through Jesus (not just “NEW things”), then YOU should join ME in MY understanding.
Deal?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,16:49) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,21:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,16:21) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,21:10) Please explain. To your understanding.
The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. He is not God's Holy Spirit. He was, however, many times FILLED WITH God's Holy Spirit, right?Now, answer my question: Are we ALL the same eternal spirit? Or do we each have OUR OWN spirits?
(By answering this one simple question, your point will be refuted WITHOUT me having to do a step by step exegisis of the large passage you quoted. Answering this question will prove that there is not LITERALLY only ONE spirit in existence, thereby refuting your claim that Jesus must BE that spirit.)
Mike,
That does not answer my question.
I asked you to explain both of those chapters that I gave you (1Corinthians 12:1-11 and 2Corinthians 3:12-18).6th post from the top.
2B,READ THE WORDS IN THE PARENTHESIS. I won't need to go through this LONG passage of scripture (thereby derailing this discussion even further) if you would just answer my simple question.
THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION WILL PROVE YOUR CONCLUSION WRONG, 2B. And that will save us BOTH a lot of time and effort. Then, perhaps some other time, in some other thread, I will take the time to painstakingly explain my thoughts on that passage.
Right now, the bottom line is that YOU are claiming Jesus IS the Holy Spirit of God because of the words “one spirit” and “one Lord”. That conclusion does NOT match the rest of scripture (like the ones where Jesus is FILLED WITH the Holy Spirit) – and is therefore FLAWED.
Mike,
No, it is not flawed.PLEASE READ THOSE SCRIPTURES.
And that is exactly why I understand Jesus to be a man, 100% (not some God/Man) but a MAN, and the Spirit was in Him because of His perfection, the Spirit – the ONE Spirit was speaking through Him because that one Spirit is also called the Son of God – and that one Spirit came down from HEAVEN to do the will of the Father.
Therefore Jesus the man and the Holy Spirit/Son became as one.
Read those scriptures Mike I urge you to, and then maybe you will see that there is only one Spirit, and the Lord (Jesus) “became” the Spirit (a life giving spirit).
Jesus the man did NOT exist until His conception.What DID pre-exist was the Holy Spirit/Son of God.
The confusion is in making God's own spoken Word (the Logos which is divine speech) into a pre-existent Jesus. The Word is Gods' own speech.
Please do that scriptural study, and then I will happily answer your questions!
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,22:08) Therefore Jesus the man and the Holy Spirit/Son became as one.
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth……….”How can Jesus be “full of joy through the Holy Spirit” if Jesus WAS the Holy Spirit?
This is just one scripture that refutes your understanding, 2B. I told you long ago in this thread that there were many scriptures that refute your understanding on this matter. I didn't want to get sidetracked talking about them, and I still don't.
Perhaps now you will let this “Jesus is the Holy Spirit Son of God” claim go……… and we can get back to the topic of the thread.
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,22:08) The confusion is in making God's own spoken Word (the Logos which is divine speech) into a pre-existent Jesus.
God's spoken word was WITH Him in the beginning, and also WAS Him? Talk about confusion……..2B, do you see the “Holy Spirit Son of God” as an independent being? After all, being the Son OF God would make him someone OTHER THAN God, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,17:19) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,22:08) The confusion is in making God's own spoken Word (the Logos which is divine speech) into a pre-existent Jesus.
God's spoken word was WITH Him in the beginning, and also WAS Him? Talk about confusion……..2B, do you see the “Holy Spirit Son of God” as an independent being? After all, being the Son OF God would make him someone OTHER THAN God, right?
Mike,The Son of God that i see is not some little god, but is A PART OF GOD – GOD'S OWN SPIRIT!!
Spirit gives birth to spirit — and flesh gives birth to flesh.
God the Father is spirit.
The Son is spirit.The Father is the mind and the Son is the spirit.
Do I see the Holy Spirit/Son of God as an independent being?
No.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,08:02) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2013,15:36) The good man is good only because Jehovah is doing his work through the man who is evil without Jehovah.
Kerwin, Jesus clearly speaks about a GOOD human being. But also says, “ONLY God is good”. Are you unable to understand the simple concept that if you say, “JESUS IS GOOD because……….”, the because part doesn't matter, for you are STILL saying “JESUS IS GOOD“?And if you say “JESUS IS GOOD“, aren't you pitting scripture against scripture – since Jesus himself said, “ONLY God is good”?
There are TWO ways to understand the words “ONLY God is good”……….
1. Jehovah is LITERALLY the ONLY “good” person in existence, which would make Jesus “bad”.
2. It was an EMPHATICAL statement, by which Jesus was placing his own God ABOVE himself by deferring to the even greater goodness of God than his own goodness.
Neither of these “break” scripture, but the first one does call for you to say these two things:
1. Jesus is BAD.
2. When Jesus spoke about good human beings, he was lying, because none of them are really good.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2013,15:36) Yes Jesus is evil because he has a soulish nature.
And this is where your pride and misunderstanding lead you, Kerwin. This was the “lesson” I was trying to teach Gene and Ed, ie: You can't take Jesus' statement about only God being good LITERALLY, UNLESS you are willing to call Jesus “bad”. I “knew” none of you would ever go as far as to call your Lord and Savior “bad”, and I would therefore be able to make my point.Boy was I wrong! You have not only called your Lord “bad”, but gone as far as to call him “EVIL”! Wow Kerwin! I have to admit I'm stumped on this one.
Does anyone else here believe our Lord Jesus Christ was “evil”? Or is it just Kerwin?
Mike,I do not believe you understand who Jehovah is and what his spirit is.
1 Corinthians 12:3
King James Version (KJV)3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
No man can do good but by the Holy Spirit and no man living by the Spirit can do evil.
There is no way to perform a good deed but by the Spirit of God. It is impossible.
Jesus, the flesh man, is evil; even though he never performed the works of the flesh, Galatians 5:19.
Jesus, the Spirit man, is good; because he manifests the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22.
Luke 22:42
King James Version (KJV)42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Whose will is the flesh man's?
Whose will is the Spirit man's?Is the flesh man good or evil?
Is the Spirit man good or evil?This is not rocket science as I am only speaking of the flesh and the Spirit.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,10:19) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,22:08) The confusion is in making God's own spoken Word (the Logos which is divine speech) into a pre-existent Jesus.
God's spoken word was WITH Him in the beginning, and also WAS Him? Talk about confusion……..2B, do you see the “Holy Spirit Son of God” as an independent being? After all, being the Son OF God would make him someone OTHER THAN God, right?
Mike,Philo of Alexander is said to have called Divine Wisdom the daughter of God.
Other writings from the First Century and before did the same thing. None are inferring Divine wisdom is a being.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,01:21) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 07 2013,23:22) Ask Ed and Gene if the believe that Scripture testifies about gods who are not god as Jehovah is God?
Ed and Gene,Do you believe the scriptures that testify about gods who are not the Most High God, Jehovah? YES or NO?
Hi Mike,If you mean “El-o-heem's” then “Yes”, but the English word 'gods' was not written in Hebrew so 'No'.
We have been through this many times now: The Hebrew word El-o-heem
defines as FOUR different (translatable) words into EnglishThe word “God” in English, has one predominant meaning:
“Creator and ruler of the universe”THERE IS ONLY ONE, all others are 'false gods'
In this sense the word 'gods' is used.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,14:04) Ed, (1)you have said Jesus is NOT bad in a previous post.
(2)Does that mean you understand that “only God is good” was an EMPHATICAL statement, and not meant to be taken LITERALLY?
Hi Mike,1) No I didn't. You asked me a question – something like: “Do you
think that Jesus was NOT a Good person?” “Yes or no?”
…I responded “No” to that question.2) In Genesis, “GOD” calls his creation “Good”.
When Jesus said only “GOD” is good – he was inferring to He Himself
taking 'Lucifer down, because of what Jesus composition or makeup in the flesh was:
Jesus had the entirety of the GodHead housed in his being, us, and also 'Lucifer'. Read more at this link: (Link)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,14:08) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 09 2013,01:29) Hi Gene, Calling us “EL-o-heem's” is NOT the same as calling us gods; I thought you knew that?
EL-o-heem has essentially four different meanings, while “GOD” has primarily one.
(1) Yet the words Jehovah used in those Isaiah passages was “elohim”, Ed.(2) Jehovah said that besides Him, there were no elohim.
(3) Yet now you are telling us about OTHER elohim. Hmmmm………….
Hi Mike,1) Yes, and the “AKJV Bible” translators correctly translated it to us the idea or “The Logos” YHVH had intended.
2) Yes, “YHVH is GOD” and there is no other “GOD”.
3) The Hebrew word El-o-heemd defines as
FOUR different (translatable) words into English.I will explain what you are doing and perhaps you will get:
A:
The Bible translated the word meaning Rhinoceros to “Unicorns”.
Now Atheist are taking the current meaning of “Unicorn” to back apply it.B:
The bible translators translated the words meaning “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE” into 'iam that iam'.
Now people are trying to back apply another fake meaning of the words 'iam' to (falsely) to mean YHVH.There is NO 'iam' in Hebrew, there is no “unicorn” in Hebrew and the English word god
does not apply in the manor you are trying to BACK FORCE IT TO MEAN when you back apply it.I don't know if you are going to get this or not, but that is what you are doing.
Jesus is not 'a god' period~! Your rudimentary logic will NEVER convince anyone that knows better.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,14:12) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 09 2013,02:17) OK Pierre, thanks, I found them. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2013,09:39) 1. Why then is Jesus called a god in scripture?
Hi Mike,1) He isn't.
Okay Ed,
Let's take them one at a time:
1. Is Jesus called a god in Heb 1:8-9? What does your precious AKJV say about it?
Hi Mike, OK;Quote 1) Is Jesus called a god in Heb 1:8-9?
Jesus is not called “Theos” in the Greek portion of the bible,
Jesus is not called “El-oheem” in the Hebrew portion of the bible,
and Jesus is not called 'a god' in the bible; you are pushing FALSE DOCTRINE.Quote What does your precious AKJV say about it?
Please define your usage of the word 'IT'.
It “WILL BE” the information I will need to answer this question.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,14:24) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,21:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,16:04)
Is God LITERALLY the only good person in existence, thereby making Jesus “bad”, or “evil”? YES or NO?
No. Jesus is good.
So then, “only God is good” was an EMPHATICAL statement, designed to draw attention to the fact that the goodness of Jesus cannot be compared to the goodness of the God who sent Him to atone for our sins?
Hi Mike,GOD is Good, and the fruit he made was good. (see Genesis)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (terraricca @ Feb. 10 2013,14:26) 2bee well what is the holy spirit ,it his not a being it s a tool ,
Hi Pierre,Is your spirit your tool? “Yes” or “No”?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (2besee @ Feb. 10 2013,16:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,17:19) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,22:08) The confusion is in making God's own spoken Word (the Logos which is divine speech) into a pre-existent Jesus.
God's spoken word was WITH Him in the beginning, and also WAS Him? Talk about confusion……..2B, do you see the “Holy Spirit Son of God” as an independent being? After all, being the Son OF God would make him someone OTHER THAN God, right?
Mike,The Son of God that i see is not some little god, but is A PART OF GOD – GOD'S OWN SPIRIT!!
Spirit gives birth to spirit — and flesh gives birth to flesh.
God the Father is spirit.
The Son is spirit.The Father is the mind and the Son is the spirit.
Do I see the Holy Spirit/Son of God as an independent being?
No.
Hi 2Besee,God the Father is (Holy) spirit.
The Son is spirit (of Christ). (ref. Rom.8:9)You had a few missing prices (I added) to your synopsis.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (2besee @ Feb. 09 2013,23:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,17:19)
2B, do you see the “Holy Spirit Son of God” as an independent being? After all, being the Son OF God would make him someone OTHER THAN God, right?
Mike,The Son of God that i see is not some little god, but is A PART OF GOD – GOD'S OWN SPIRIT!!
Spirit gives birth to spirit — and flesh gives birth to flesh.
And what about the many other spirit sons of God, that we generally call “angels”? Are they not also a case of “spirit giving birth to spirit”? Do you believe they are also all a “part of God”, and not individual beings?Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 10 2013,03:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2013,08:02)
Does anyone else here believe our Lord Jesus Christ was “evil”? Or is it just Kerwin?
Mike,I do not believe you understand who Jehovah is and what his spirit is.
Why would you say that, Kerwin? It surely isn't something you could prove, nor does that statement provide you an “out” of your current “Jesus was EVIL” situation.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 10 2013,03:50) Jesus, the flesh man, is evil; even though he never performed the works of the flesh, Galatians 5:19.
Galatians 5
19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.Tell me how that passage teaches us that Jesus was evil, Kerwin. Which of the things mentioned did Jesus partake in? And if he did partake in any of them, why did he inherit the kingdom of God – when Paul says people who live like this will NOT inherit it?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 10 2013,03:50) Luke 22:42
King James Version (KJV)42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Whose will is the flesh man's?
Whose will is the Spirit man's?Is the flesh man good or evil?
Is the Spirit man good or evil?This is not rocket science as I am only speaking of the flesh and the Spirit.
So let me try to understand what you are saying here………….Are you saying that Jesus showed his evil side when he asked his God if there was a different way to accomplish His purpose – one that didn't require Jesus to die a painful death?
Is that evil, Kerwin? God, the bottom line is that I'm a good and faithful servant, and want nothing more than for YOUR will to be done. But is there possibly a DIFFERENT way for that will to be done – one where I don't have to die this way? After all, all things are possible for you, right?
I don't see that plea as evil. Oh, and btw, in the “good and faithful servant” parable Jesus taught (Matt 25, Luke 19), he used the word “agathe” for the human servant.
Perhaps Jesus lost his mind? Because “only God is agathe”, right? Or maybe the servants he called “agathe” were God? Hmmmm…………… How do you explain it, Kerwin?
I know! Maybe, just maybe, the “only God is good” statement was an EMPHATICAL statement, designed to promote the goodness of God OVER the goodness of Jesus?
Like you said in your post, “This is not rocket science”.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
