In the Beginning

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2013,05:10)

So far, we've learned that the following things cannot be scripturally refuted:

1. John 1:1c can be faithfully translated as “and the Word was a god”. (Many expert Greek scholars)

2. Jesus is called a god in scripture. (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)

3. Jesus was with God before the world began. (John 17:5)

4. All things were said to have been made through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)

5. In Jesus was life. (John 5:26)

6. Jesus was the “light of the world”, and the “light of life”. (John 8:12)

Moving on…………….

John 1:5
The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Supporting scriptures:

Matthew 4:16
the people living in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death
a light has dawned.”

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of the darkness, made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

As with this entire exercise, I have merely compared things said in John 1 about “the Word” with things said in other scriptures about “Jesus”. Any rebuttals?

Mike,

Some are general statements and so do not make your case. Others are refuted and you do not except the refutation. I am tired and see no real reason to go over them again.

Why is Isa 44:8 and Isaiah 45:5 not denying Jesus is a god?

In other words please explain the difference between God and a god in such a way that Ed and Gene can understand where you are coming from.

February 8, 2013 at 2:42 am#332078

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 07 2013,18:47)

Some are general statements and so do not make your case.

Each one of them makes my case………… and there are many more to come!

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 07 2013,18:47)

Others are refuted and you do not except the refutation.

Not one of them has been refuted. If you think any of them can be, then pick one and refute it using scripture right now.

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 07 2013,18:47)

Why is Isa 44:8 and Isaiah 45:5 not denying Jesus is a god?

Because they are EMPHATICAL statements, and not LITERAL statements. This you already know.

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 07 2013,18:47)

In other words please explain the difference between God and a god in such a way that Ed and Gene can understand where you are coming from.

I have many times before. I even started a thread called “Indeed there ARE many gods” for that purpose – but no one wants to go to that thread and discuss the scriptural FACTS of the matter – despite much pleading from me.

I am now trying again using the “only God is good” statement.

But since you already know where I'm coming from, and acknowledge the fact that the scriptures teach of many gods, but only one Creator, why don't YOU help me to explain it to them?

February 8, 2013 at 3:09 am#332081

Participant

Quote

In other words please explain the difference between God and a god in such a way that Ed and Gene can understand where you are coming from.

the difference between God almighty and other gods ,first their are two kind of other gods ;

1) the gods that God almighty establish in that position ,like Moses ,Men,Christ ,

2) any other gods that God almighty DID NOT SEND ,

February 8, 2013 at 5:39 am#332087

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Mike…….I gave you a complete understanding about what KIND of “good” Jesus was talking about in each case. I told you plainly a man can be a good mechanic but still not be considered a good person. Did that just fly by you ? Being a good Shepard has nothing to do with being a good person. Can't you at least understand that?

You continue to force scriptures to say what in fact they don't say. Then you deny Jesus' own words. when he said why callest me good , there is none that is good, except “ONLY ONE” and that is GOD. So what part of what Jesus said about himself don't you believe. If Jesus said there is only “one” that is good , how have you come up with others who can call themselves good .

You say out of one side of your mouth you believe Jesus but out of the other you deny his very own words and it doesn't seem to bother you at all. There are other scriptures I could give you also what God “said about none being good no not even one ” therefore he took it upon his own arm to bring salvation”.

Kerwin and I both believe what Jesus and GOD said, they truly meant, and you and your cohorts just ignore their words and make up you own teachings why is that Mike?

Peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

February 8, 2013 at 6:22 am#332089

Participant

Mike,

Quote

Because they are EMPHATICAL statements, and not LITERAL statements. This you already know.

That claim can advance the conversation without jumping around. Ed and Gene gave their own responses which probably go off on a tangent. The following is my response.

No I don’t necessary agree with you completely on this matter as I hear it as a literal statement.

You seem to be claiming God is the chief of god kind just as David was the chief of other humans.

God of gods seems to confirm that but looking closer Jehovah has characteristic the other ones that are called do not have. The gods are created while Jehovah is not and the gods have been tempted by and in some cases done evil while Jehovah cannot be tempted, much less do evil. For this reason Jehovah is one of a kind though many on earth and in heaven are called gods.

When Jehovah states he alone is God then he is speaking of God kind and not of beast kind, human kind, or even god kind.

Angels were made a little higher than humans and as such, are gods.

Quote

But since you already know where I'm coming from, and acknowledge the fact that the scriptures teach of many gods, but only one Creator, why don't YOU help me to explain it to them?

That is a good way to put it since Jehovah is the Source and the gods live, move, and have their being in him.

Ask Ed and Gene if the believe that Scripture testifies about gods who are not god as Jehovah is God?

February 8, 2013 at 6:24 am#332090

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 08 2013,08:09)

Quote

In other words please explain the difference between God and a god in such a way that Ed and Gene can understand where you are coming from.

the difference between God almighty and other gods ,first their are two kind of other gods ;

1) the gods that God almighty establish in that position ,like Moses ,Men,Christ ,

2) any other gods that God almighty DID NOT SEND ,

Sounds good! what is Gene and Ed's input on the matter?

February 8, 2013 at 7:00 am#332093

Participant

Mike,

Quote

Yet Jesus called himself “the GOOD shepherd”, right?

The “good” in “good teacher” is translated from a different word than the “good” in “good shepherd”

agathe = intrinsically good, good in nature, good whether it be seen to be so or not, the widest and most colorless of all words with this meaning.

Kalos- = beautiful, as an outward sign of the inward good, noble, honorable character; good, worthy, honorable, noble, and seen to be so.

Jesus is Kalos but not agathe.

Quote

How do you explain that, Kerwin? You can't say “Jesus was good BECAUSE….” if God is LITERALLY the ONLY one who is good, right? If God is literally the only one who is good, then Jesus cannot possibly be good, no matter what “because” you bring up.

Yes I can because Jehovah is the only one that cannot be tempted

February 8, 2013 at 2:48 pm#332121

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 07 2013,17:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2013,11:59)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 07 2013,13:08)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2013,07:00)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2013,11:42)

So far, we've learned that the following things cannot be scripturally refuted:

1. John 1:1c can be faithfully translated as “and the Word was a god”. (Many expert Greek scholars)

2. Jesus is called a god in scripture. (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)

3. Jesus was with God before the world began. (John 17:5)

4. All things were said to have been made through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)

Hi Mike,

Your claims (numbered 1, 2, & 3) both can be and have been refuted a number of times.
And although your claim number 4 is essentially correct, it also doesn't have the meaning
you are assigning to it, nor is there the connection to Col 1:16 in the manner you assume.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

talk,talk,talk, I want to see scriptures ,scriptures scriptures ,

if you know of some scriptures that can refute Mike ones please show them because I do not know any

Hi Pierre,

Claim #1.
“I [The LORD JEHOVAH] that maketh all things;
that stretcheth forth the heavens alone;
that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself:” (Isa 44:24)

“The worlds were framed by “The Word” of God, so that things
which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (Heb 11:3)

Claim #2.
“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there 'a God' beside me? yea,
there is 'no God'; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

“I [The LORD JEHOVAH], and there is none else,
there is no God beside me:” (Isaiah 45:5)

Claim #3.
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5)

“With thine own self” – I take to mean that Jesus was part of God,
not a separate being as you guys seem to be signing on to.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Edj

Your claim #3. Do you have the Hebrew or Greek translation on hand

If you do could you show both your version and the Greek version side by side thanks

Hi Pierre,

I take it that you accept my refuting of claim number 1 & 2 then; OK, great (your style Mike) then we can proceed…

Claim #3.

I believe [יהשוע] (YÄ-shü-ă) said: “I came out from God” (John 16:27)

YÄ-shü-ă is called “Immanuel”(H 410, H 6005) “Emmanuel”(G 1694) God with us

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 8, 2013 at 3:23 pm#332132

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 08 2013,00:53)

Terricca…………How about 1and 2 do they “refute” Mike? They sure do to Me.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………gene

Hi Gene,

I guess he needs a “THIRD” witness then.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 8, 2013 at 3:34 pm#332135

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 08 2013,19:48)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 07 2013,17:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2013,11:59)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 07 2013,13:08)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2013,07:00)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2013,11:42)

So far, we've learned that the following things cannot be scripturally refuted:

1. John 1:1c can be faithfully translated as “and the Word was a god”. (Many expert Greek scholars)

2. Jesus is called a god in scripture. (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)

3. Jesus was with God before the world began. (John 17:5)

4. All things were said to have been made through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)

Hi Mike,

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

talk,talk,talk, I want to see scriptures ,scriptures scriptures ,

if you know of some scriptures that can refute Mike ones please show them because I do not know any

Hi Pierre,

Claim #1.
“I [The LORD JEHOVAH] that maketh all things;
that stretcheth forth the heavens alone;
that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself:” (Isa 44:24)

“The worlds were framed by “The Word” of God, so that things
which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (Heb 11:3)

Claim #2.
“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there 'a God' beside me? yea,
there is 'no God'; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

“I [The LORD JEHOVAH], and there is none else,
there is no God beside me:” (Isaiah 45:5)

Claim #3.
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5)

“With thine own self” – I take to mean that Jesus was part of God,
not a separate being as you guys seem to be signing on to.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Edj

Your claim #3. Do you have the Hebrew or Greek translation on hand

If you do could you show both your version and the Greek version side by side thanks

Hi Pierre,

I take it that you accept my refuting of claim number 1 & 2 then; OK, great (your style Mike) then we can proceed…

Claim #3.

I believe [יהשוע] (YÄ-shü-ă) said: “I came out from God” (John 16:27)

YÄ-shü-ă is called “Immanuel”(H 410, H 6005) “Emmanuel”(G 1694) God with us

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Edj

you are not answering my question ;

and I have not addressed 1 and 2

but only 3 what i have ask to show the Greek and English version

because I believe that you are not quoting the truth

February 8, 2013 at 3:36 pm#332136

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2013,16:24)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 08 2013,08:09)

Quote

In other words please explain the difference between God and a god in such a way that Ed and Gene can understand where you are coming from.

the difference between God almighty and other gods ,first their are two kind of other gods ;

1) the gods that God almighty establish in that position ,like Moses ,Men,Christ ,

2) any other gods that God almighty DID NOT SEND ,

Sounds good! what is Gene and Ed's input on the matter?

Hi Kerwin,

God didn't establish Moses nor Jesus as other gods.
People (in the days of old) viewing those other than JEHOVAH
as gods are clearly mistaken now aren't they? (<– Please answer)

“And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying,
Know [The LORD JEHOVAH]: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them,
saith [The LORD JEHOVAH]: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” (Jer 31:34)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 8, 2013 at 3:41 pm#332138

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2013,12:00)

Mike,

Quote

Yet Jesus called himself “the GOOD shepherd”, right?

The “good” in “good teacher” is translated from a different word than the “good” in “good shepherd”

agathe = intrinsically good, good in nature, good whether it be seen to be so or not, the widest and most colorless of all words with this meaning.

Kalos- = beautiful, as an outward sign of the inward good, noble, honorable character; good, worthy, honorable, noble, and seen to be so.

Jesus is Kalos but not agathe.

Quote

Yes I can because Jehovah is the only one that cannot be tempted

if God his the only one that his good then no one else can be ,

and why his it that it is only ,that God is GOOD

is it not because HE IS THE GOD OF GODS ,AND THE LORD OF LORDS ?

AND BECAUSE HE IS THE ONLY CREATOR

AND SO IF HE IS THE ONLY ONE THEN THEIR CAN NOT BE ANYONE ELSE RIGHT ,???

BUT BEING A GOOD SHEPHERD IS DIFFERENT THAN GOD BEING THE ONLY GOOD ,RIGHT

February 8, 2013 at 3:45 pm#332139

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 08 2013,20:36)

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2013,16:24)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 08 2013,08:09)

Quote

In other words please explain the difference between God and a god in such a way that Ed and Gene can understand where you are coming from.

the difference between God almighty and other gods ,first their are two kind of other gods ;

1) the gods that God almighty establish in that position ,like Moses ,Men,Christ ,

2) any other gods that God almighty DID NOT SEND ,

Sounds good! what is Gene and Ed's input on the matter?

Hi Kerwin,

God didn't establish Moses nor Jesus as other gods.
People (in the days of old) viewing those other than JEHOVAH
as gods are clearly mistaken now aren't they? (<– Please answer)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

EDJ

God almighty his the only true God ,but for all other gods the name god only means the position not the foundation ,

only the true God as the foundation of being the only true GOD

February 8, 2013 at 3:45 pm#332140

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 09 2013,01:34)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 08 2013,19:48)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 07 2013,17:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2013,11:59)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 07 2013,13:08)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2013,07:00)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2013,11:42)

So far, we've learned that the following things cannot be scripturally refuted:

1. John 1:1c can be faithfully translated as “and the Word was a god”. (Many expert Greek scholars)

2. Jesus is called a god in scripture. (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)

3. Jesus was with God before the world began. (John 17:5)

4. All things were said to have been made through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)

Hi Mike,

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

talk,talk,talk, I want to see scriptures ,scriptures scriptures ,

if you know of some scriptures that can refute Mike ones please show them because I do not know any

Hi Pierre,

Claim #1.
“I [The LORD JEHOVAH] that maketh all things;
that stretcheth forth the heavens alone;
that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself:” (Isa 44:24)

“The worlds were framed by “The Word” of God, so that things
which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (Heb 11:3)

Claim #2.
“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there 'a God' beside me? yea,
there is 'no God'; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

“I [The LORD JEHOVAH], and there is none else,
there is no God beside me:” (Isaiah 45:5)

Claim #3.
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5)

“With thine own self” – I take to mean that Jesus was part of God,
not a separate being as you guys seem to be signing on to.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Edj

Your claim #3. Do you have the Hebrew or Greek translation on hand

If you do could you show both your version and the Greek version side by side thanks

Hi Pierre,

I take it that you accept my refuting of claim number 1 & 2 then; OK, great (your style Mike) then we can proceed…

Claim #3.

I believe [יהשוע] (YÄ-shü-ă) said: “I came out from God” (John 16:27)

YÄ-shü-ă is called “Immanuel”(H 410, H 6005) “Emmanuel”(G 1694) God with us

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Edj

you are not answering my question ;

and I have not addressed 1 and 2

but only 3 what i have ask to show the Greek and English version

because I believe that you are not quoting the truth

Hi Pierre,

What I have quoted is the truth.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 8, 2013 at 4:31 pm#332153

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Terricca……….So what is you commit, on Claim #1 and Claim # 2…….> do you believe them or not> yes or no Why forget about them as if they don't exist. If you believe them as they are written then there is you answer, about other God or “little gods'. It like you and Mike are straining at a gnats and swallowing Camels.

Our GOD says There are “NO” other Gods besides Him , he said he “ALONE” crated everything and He even said He looked for another God and found none not even one But you people think you can just ignore his words and establish other Gods as you see fit because there are lesser and lesser and lesser gods, why even ant in your logic can be a god because it has some kind of power Right?

We chose to believe God the Father and Jesus who said clearly “For Thou art the “ONLY” “TRUE” God. now it is evident if He says “ONLY” “TRUE” then all others are not “TRUE” God's but “FALSE” God's

Setting up Jesus as a God is exactly what Paul was talking about in 2 Ths 2. read it and remember Jesus is the ONLY that has taken His Seat in the “TEMPLE OF GOD” and is being displayed as a God or in your and Mikes and T8's case a “Little god” . Jesus' return is close, you people had better start getting it right and cease tunning the image of Jesus into a LIE as being a God of any kind. IMO

peace and Love to you and yours…………………………………………………gene

February 8, 2013 at 4:37 pm#332155

Participant

Hi Mike,

Pierre didn't really agree to my refuting of your points #1 & 2, he just didn't respond to them.

Not responding to a point is not necessary agreeing; you agree, right Mike?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 8, 2013 at 4:46 pm#332160

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 09 2013,02:37)

Hi Mike,

Pierre didn't really agree to my refuting of your points #1 & 2, he just didn't respond to them.

Not responding to a point is not necessary agreeing; you agree, right Mike?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

ED J……..But then again, that is how they divert truth by change subject matter away from the other parts of posts . Very cleaver, but deceitfully cleaver > IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene

February 8, 2013 at 4:56 pm#332163

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 09 2013,02:46)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 09 2013,02:37)

Hi Mike,

Pierre didn't really agree to my refuting of your points #1 & 2, he just didn't respond to them.

Not responding to a point is not necessary agreeing; you agree, right Mike?

God bless
Ed J

ED J……..But then again, that is how they divert truth by change subject matter away from the other parts of posts . Very cleaver, but deceitfully cleaver > IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene

Hi Gene,

Diversions, is quite common here.
David does that practice here quite a bit.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 8, 2013 at 7:01 pm#332168

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 08 2013,20:36)

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2013,16:24)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 08 2013,08:09)

Quote

In other words please explain the difference between God and a god in such a way that Ed and Gene can understand where you are coming from.

the difference between God almighty and other gods ,first their are two kind of other gods ;

1) the gods that God almighty establish in that position ,like Moses ,Men,Christ ,

2) any other gods that God almighty DID NOT SEND ,

Sounds good! what is Gene and Ed's input on the matter?

Hi Kerwin,

God didn't establish Moses nor Jesus as other gods.
People (in the days of old) viewing those other than JEHOVAH
as gods are clearly mistaken now aren't they? (<– Please answer)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J,

Yahweh established the children of Israel as his children, which is to say gods. Scripture does not reserve the word “god” for Yahweh alone; though many in our culture have been taught to do.

The children of Israel are still of the kind human; even though Yahweh calls them gods.

Yahweh is the only god worthy of worship as he cannot be tempted, much less do evil. He is one of a kind, the a and the z, the first and the last. He is the source of all righteousness and all that is righteous.

February 8, 2013 at 7:12 pm#332172