In the Beginning

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,16:37)

God is only one – not a combo of Gods but one, Mind and Spirit.

Agreed.  The Almighty Creator of all things is one God – and not a combo of more than one.

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,16:37)

The word “God” when used in any other way in scripture, would have to be a title IF you believe ALL of the Scriptures that say that GOD IS ONE and that there is no other God beside Him.

I agree that the word “god” is a title of a being, whether it is used of the Almighty God, Jehovah, or of any of the other many gods mentioned in scripture.  The word is a title, period.

As for the scriptures that EMPHATICALLY say “God is one” etc., you must understand emphatic word usage in scripture to understand these scriptures.  For example, scripture says that God is the ONLY savior, and besides Him there is no savior.  But what, then, does this scripture mean:

Nehemiah 9:27
But when they were oppressed they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them, and in your great compassion you gave them saviors, who rescued them from the hand of their enemies.

Surely you can understand that God Himself was not the “savior” that He GAVE to the Israelites.  Therefore, you should be able to understand that when Hosea (or whoever) says God is the ONLY savior, it is an EMPHATICAL statement, meaning He is the GREATEST savior – and not LITERALLY the ONLY one.

How about when Jesus says “only God is good”, but then calls HIMSELF “the good shepherd”?  Is God LITERALLY the ONLY one who is “good”, 2B?  Is Jesus “bad”?  Are the disciples “bad”?  Are Michael and Gabriel “bad”?  Of course not.  

So if we are able to use our God-given common sense, and NOT take things like “ONLY good”, and “ONLY savior” LITERALLY…….. AND we already know from scriptures that there ARE INDEED many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth………….  then it really shouldn't be that hard to understand that Jehovah is the “ONLY god” in the same way He is the “ONLY good one”.  They are EMPHATIC statements, designed to place Jehovah ABOVE all the other “good ones”, “saviors”, and “gods”.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,20:11)

Hi Mike, part 2. That Jesus was a man 100%, but the Holy Spirit was in Him: 1 John 4:3 “And every spirit who doesn't confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God, and this is the spirit of the Antichrist, of whom you have heard that it comes. Now it is in the world already.” 'In the flesh' means as a man. 'Flesh' always had the same meaning in the Bible. Jesus said “Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in Heaven” Flesh means man. Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.“ Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Luke 24:39 “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.“ God is spirit. Spirit does not have flesh and bones, as Jesus said. Therefore, Jesus was a man, not something that was part man and part god. Spirit gives birth to spirit, flesh gives birth to flesh. —————- 'In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.' The Word is divine speech, it is God's Word. It is spoken through the spirit. John 6:63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. ——————— The eternal Spirit of the Father has always been here. When you pray it is the eternal Spirit which is interceding for you between heaven and earth. It is the Spirit of God, and it is the same Spirit which was in Jesus. It is, I believe,  also called the Spirit of Christ (Same Spirit). ” You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit — if it is so, that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.“ There you see the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:16 “Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?“ 1 Corinthians 6:17 'But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.' 1 Corinthians 6:19 'Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own.' So, the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ as you can see above, is the same thing. You also know from other Scripture that it is the one and the same Spirit, in believers. 1 Peter 1:10-12. 'The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation; they inquired what person or time was indicated by the Spirit of Christ within them when predicting the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glory. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.' Do you see in that verse, how the 'Spirit of Christ' was in the Prophets of old, and came down from Heaven — the Holy Spirit. ————– “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US'….His name was Jesus and in the name of Jesus we are saved, not in any other name. “Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “You rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, if we are examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in him does this man stand here before you whole. He is 'the stone which was regarded as worthless by you, the builders, which has become the head of the corner.' There is salvation in none other, for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, by which we must be saved!“ The name in which we are saved is JESUS or YAHSHUA, which means 'YAH SAVES'. “But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.” 2Peter 2:1. Jude 1:4 “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” 1 John 2:22 “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.” Revelation 3:8 “I know your works (behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one can shut), that you have a little power, and kept my word, and didn't deny my name.“ ———————- Okay, back to the Word (Logos)… He who does not love me does not keep my word (logos); and the word (logos) which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me. http://biblos.com/john/14-24.htm When anyone hears the word (logos) of the kingdom ….. http://biblos.com/matthew/13-19.htm Why neither thought I myself worthy to come to you: but say in a word (logos) and my servant shall be healed. http://biblos.com/luke/7-7.htm But he said to them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word (logos) of God and do it.” http://biblos.com/luke/8-21.htm When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word (logos) which Jesus had spoken. http://biblos.com/john/2-22.htm Jesus said to him, “Go; your son will live.” The man believed the word (logos) that Jesus spoke to him and went his way. http://biblos.com/john/4-50.htm It was that the word (logos) spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: http://biblos.com/john/12-38.htm Remember the word (logos) that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word (logos), they will keep yours also. http://biblos.com/john/15-20.htm It is all the same word used in these verses.Strongs 3056. And these are just a few examples. I can find more. —————– I know what it is that I believe and that is that the Word of God is God's own Word and Holy Spirit. I believe that 'In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word WAS God.' And I believe that the reading of John 1:1 should be kept intact, and I am against the reading being “The Word was a god. The Holy Spirit,Word is more than 'a god' or an Angel or a created being. the Word and the Holy Spirit (Son) is of God and is God. The eternal Spirit is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit came into the World. The World was made through the Eternal Spirit, and in Scripture the Eternal Spirit is called a He. Jesus was a Son of God, He became the first begotten Son of God. The Holy Spirit which was in Him is also called the Son of God. The body which the Holy Spirit was clothed in was the Man Jesus. Hence why Jesus used the words 'Son of Man' and 'Son of God'. —————— 1John 2:1-11 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling. But he who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. And the whole law is summed up as being love of God and love of neighbor, and our neighbor is the suffering one among us, helping the needy is being a true neighbor. And the needy can be anyone who is 'needy' even the spiritual needy or the lonely or the suffering or the hungry or the hurt, as is shown in scriptures. So God is light and God is love. And with no light an no love the world would not be a nice place would it. —————– In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.' This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling.' In the beginning the Spirit was moving over the waters and God said 'let there be light' (God's love) 'and there was light'. He who does not love does not know God because God is love. He who hates his brother is in the darkness. The opposite of love is hate. And the opposite of truth is lies. ————— Jesus said 'WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? none is good, SAVE ONE, THAT IS, GOD.' Now we know that Jesus was the only righteous man, so Jesus WAS good. But even he said that there is one God and he here is separating himself as different than that one God, His Father. Paul said 'There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus'. Jesus was in the flesh (Man) but that which was in him was God (Holy Spirit). ——————- In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word was in the beginning with God, all things were made through the Word, and without the Word was not anything made that was made. In the Word was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came for testimony, to bear witness to the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness to the light. The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. The Word was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not. He came to his own home, and his own people received him not. But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of an only Son from the Father. —————- THE WORD WAS GOD ————– Not a little god, not a second God, not a third God, but the One God and the One Man Jesus Christ. The Word was in Him – God was in Him…. God's Word and Spirit was in Him, whilst God was in Heaven. Still the one God. —————— the OT tells us that there was only one God and that only one God created the entire universe with his own (moving) spirit and His own (spoken) word, and that, obviously, the spirit and the word was God's own spirit and God's own word, the spirit and the word being part of the entirety of the one God, just as your word and your spirit is a part of the entirety of you, then…… how do you change that entire understanding to mean that the word that is a part of God in John 1:1 can, instead, mean “another god”, or another godlike created creature, when the scriptures say: Deuteronony 4 [35] To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him. [39] Know therefore this day, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. Deuteronomy 32 [39] “`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me. 2 Samuel 7 [22] Therefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, and there is no God besides thee. 2 Samuel 22 [32] “For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God? 1 Kings 8 [60] That all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other. 2 Kings 19 [15]”O LORD the God of Israel, who art enthroned above the cherubim, thou art the God, thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth. Nehemiah 9 [6] And Ezra said: “Thou art the LORD, thou alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and thou preservest all of them; and the host of heaven worships thee. Psalm 18 [31] For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God? Isaiah 37 [20] So now, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou alone art the LORD.” Isaiah 43 [10] “You are my witnesses,” says the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. [11] I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 44 [6] Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. [7] Who is like me? Let him proclaim it, let him declare and set it forth before me. Who has announced from of old the things to come? Let them tell us what is yet to be. [8] Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.” Isaiah 45 [5] I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I gird you, though you do not know me, [6] that men may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. [7] I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things. [11] Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: “Will you question me about my children, or command me concerning the work of my hands? [12] I made the earth, and created man upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host. [14]`God is with you only, and there is no other, no god besides him.'” [18] For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the LORD, and there is no other. [21] Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. [22] “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. Genesis 1 [1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. [3] And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. [1] In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. Nobody knows the mind of God except the Spirit of God. Nobody knows the Father except the Son. (and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him). —————– Scripture says that God ALONE made the heavens and the earth through His own word and His own Spirit. You call the pre-existant Jesus “a god” whom God created the world through And you call the pre-existant god a sepertae being from God. 'Thus shall you say to them: “The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens. It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.' Jeremiah 10:11-12 God made the earth and the heavens it says by his power, his wisdom, and his understanding. Yet, you say that 'God's word' which it says in the OT is spoken through 'God's own mouth', is another god. So according to Jeremiah, this other god will be destroyed. —————– through All things came through the power of God, and through the word of God and through the spirit of God. God simply said “Be” and it was so — and his spirit moved across the waters (Genesis 1:1). So while people can let their imaginations run wild as to how God must have created the world (as if God is a man), according to scriptures and according to our knowledge of God — God is so powerful that it 'just can be', according to His will and His power. What of Paul's words? I showed you this… In brief: “To us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, on account of whom are all things, and we by Him. Paul used two completely different words (ex-ἐξ and di'-δι') which most versions translate as 'through' in both instances, however, if both meant the same thing then why did Paul chose to use two different Greek words. So the above translation or meaning could possibly be true. http://biblos.com/1_corinthians/8-6.htm ————— I showed you about the word “Only Son” or “Only Begotten Son” found only in the Book of John as possibly being “Unique” which is what some translations have chosen to translate it as…. Begotten can be translated from the Greek into either “Only” or “Only Begotten” or “Unique” The Words used are Strongs #3438 and #3439 Both have the same meaning Short Definition: only, only-begotten, or unique ————— So was the Holy Spirit the one speaking the Logos (Words)? Jesus went to heaven, correct. Jesus also said that he would ask the Father and that the Father would send the Holy Spirit. Soon after that Jesus said that HE would come . But who was speaking. Was it Jesus? Well Jesus said that he was going to heaven, to the Father. But He said that he would ask the Father and that the Holy Spirit would be sent. And it was the Holy Spirit which come. Therefore, it was the Holy Spirit in him that was speaking when he said that HE would come to them. All through eternity and all through the world from the beginning has been this eternal Spirit. This eternal Spirit is here now and will be until it all comes to an end. Jesus said that he would not leave them nor forsake them but that he would be with them until the end. And that includes us because the end has not come yet. So this was the eternal spirit speaking through Jesus, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a part of God, just as our Spirit is a part of us. Jesus was a man though he was different than us because he was conceived through the power of above through the Holy Spirit. He walked in obedience to God and sinned not, even though tempted. The Holy Spirit descended onto him like a dove and then the Holy Spirit which was in Jesus the man worked together with him; which is why Jesus said to them 'Whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.' See there was the 'son of man' and then there was the 'son of God', though Jesus was also a son of God – the firstborn son of God (The Holy Spirit “son of God” is eternal). The eternal spirit is what you need to concentrate on. And remember: 'In the beginning was the Word, the word was with God and the Word WAS God' (not a god) for he is more than that; he is the 'eternal spirit'. Amen. ———————– Another verse: 'Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently: having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. For, “All flesh is like grass, and all of man's glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls; b ut the Lord's word endures forever.” This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.' 1Peter 1:22-25. —————— The Word of God is GOD, the Holy Spirit is God. God came into the World through his Holy Spirit. Who knows the mind of man but the Spirit that is in him? Who also knows the mind of GOD but the Spirit? The Spirit was Spirit . The spirit was the eternal Spirit. Jesus was perfection he was the only perfect flesh alive. he was the SECOND ADAM PRAISE GOD THAT SUCH A ONE EXISTED. He was in the World and the Holy Spirit descended on him like a Dove and the Father dwelt in Him. The Father spoke through Him. The Father worked in Him. The Fathers words were what He spoke and through Him all of the World can be saved. When He died, God raised Him up from the dead, therefore he was the firstborn over all of creation. And through him we are all saved. We have the words of God. We have the truth of God and we have the light if we walk in the light. We are saved for our sins and we are saved form our darkness thanks be to God… ——————— We each have our own spirit and our spirit is IN us….correct? So, Jesus as a man also had His own spirit in him. Due to his obedience and perfection, then the spirit of God – the eternal spirit – went into Him. And then, thereafter, when He spoke, He spoke from God. 'The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me'. Do you understand that? God is spirit….true? ————————- 'Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb' I see the River that flows from the throne of God and the Lamb (Rev 22:1) as the Holy Spirit which is poured out and is life giving water to all of those who receive it. What did Jesus say about the living water? —————- I showed you the connection between Jesus and the Holy Spirit… Jesus promised to 'send another Comforter', the Holy Spirit. Then He said, 'I will come to you'………….God was Thought, Word, Breath, Spirit. Jesus of Nazareth was a human 'body prepared' Hebrews 10:5. John 14:15-23. “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; YOU KNOW HIM, FOR HE DWELLS WITH YOU, and will be in you. “I — will not leave you desolate; I will come to you.” Jesus just said that he would send the Comforter (Holy Spirit) to be with them forever, then He said that HE would come to them…. “Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you will see me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him. Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and WE WILL COME TO HIM AND MAKE OUR HOME WITH HIM”. —————– My spirit is only my spirit, it is nobody else's. You have your own spirit and I have mine and everyone else has has their own spirit. So our spirits have a name. It is our own name. Not only OUR NAME but also US. Same with our word. Our spirit and our word go together, of course a word can be shared, so can a spirit. But it comes from the original source. Holy Spirit is Spirit, just as God is also Spirit. Spirit gives birth to Spirit. The 'eternal Son of God' is not Jesus – Jesus is a man – the anointed one – the Christos – and the first begotten from the dead. God saved the World through Him due to His perfection (sinlessness). The Holy Spirit is the eternal “Son of God” who was in Jesus. the eternal “Son of God” came down from Heaven.   you rightly say that there is only one God and that the Spirit is from from that one God, correct. You say that the Father and the Son are two different beings – each with their own soul; mind; and will. The begotten Son of God (Jesus) — Yes — Is different. But the eternal Son of God (The Spirit) — No. God and the Spirit are one and the same God. John 10:30 'I and my Father are one'. John 10:38 'Understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father.” Man was made in God's image and then Man “gave birth” to flesh. God cannot “give birth” as we do as God is Spirit…………….. (What IS Spirit, T) Spirit does not have a body at all – nothing – nil – it is POWERS. God is the Holy Spirit. God is also His Word. There is only one God, made up of mind; power; spirit; word; and many other things (love, light, etc) – and one Man, Jesus Christ. Listen: 1Tim 3:5: 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus'. That is exactly what I am saying. Why no mention of the Holy Spirit in that? Ahhh…. Because God IS the Holy Spirit (Just as God is His own word – both are parts of the one God)… The Holy Spirit is important, see here: Mat12:32 'Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is to come. See that? ———————- 'The Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.' ——————- I am a seeker and a learner and I seek truth.   And I know that i will have errors in what I posted, but I know the main points. I have finished my summary as best that I can in response to your post Mike that showed your scriptural proofs. And now I am done.

To All………..> this is the suim of the matter and is both true and accurate. IMO

peace and love to you all…………………………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 02 2013,13:51)

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,03:11) Okay, back to the Word (Logos)… He who does not love me does not keep my word (logos); and the word (logos) which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me. http://biblos.com/john/14-24.htm When anyone hears the word (logos) of the kingdom ….. http://biblos.com/matthew/13-19.htm Why neither thought I myself worthy to come to you: but say in a word (logos) and my servant shall be healed. http://biblos.com/luke/7-7.htm But he said to them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word (logos) of God and do it.” http://biblos.com/luke/8-21.htm When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word (logos) which Jesus had spoken. http://biblos.com/john/2-22.htm Jesus said to him, “Go; your son will live.” The man believed the word (logos) that Jesus spoke to him and went his way. http://biblos.com/john/4-50.htm It was that the word (logos) spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: http://biblos.com/john/12-38.htm Remember the word (logos) that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word (logos), they will keep yours also. http://biblos.com/john/15-20.htm It is all the same word used in these verses.Strongs 3056. And these are just a few examples. I can find more. Hi 2B, It is not my intention to make you angry.  I actually like you, and many of the things you post.  I believe you are truly a man who wants desperately to seek God, and thinks of very little else.  Please remember that my intent is to point you to scriptures that tell the story the way it was meant to be told………. nothing more. That being said, I appreciate the enormous amount of time it took for you to write this huge “Part 2” post.  But I can't discuss scriptural doctrines this way.  Too much gets lost just in the sheer VOLUME of words posted. You mentioned that you've posted many scriptures that support your view, while I only posted three.  Well, I posted three for a reason, 2B.  I could have posted the over 50 scriptures some of us here put together in the “Pre-existent Scriptural Database”.  But then what?  You would have to write a million word post to refute what I thought each of those scriptures taught.  We would easily become bogged down in words. Please keep that in mind for the future.  Short and to-the-point posts work much better. As for the scriptures in the quote box above, try replacing the word “logos” with “Holy Spirit” in all of those verses.  Does it work?  If it doesn't work in each scripture you posted, then you have a problem, right?  And, just for a kicker, here is one of the many scriptures I can find where the word “logos” simply refers to any old “word” spoken or written by any old person: 1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: Both of the bolded words above are the Greek word “logos”, 2B.   If anything, the scriptures you posted hurt your doctrine – not help it.

Mike….Problem is Just a little scripture here or there does not do it for you,  So 2besee put the whole package togther for you and us all. Little post most of the time Just causes more confusion and more debates, and at time it is better to Go through a bounch of Spripture putting them togther to get to the overall true view  Remember the sum of God's word is truth not just little pieces here and there. Your little Yes, No, questions don't work in many cases. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

[kerwin]

Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2013,16:20)

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 02 2013,20:28) Not T, don't worry. I have decided that i have learnt heaps from this thread, thank you all. But, before I get accused of being a false teacher (I honestly was not trying to teach, only learn) I think I am finished with this thread now. And I thank God for showing me so much. Amen. 2Besee. And you can learn so much more,if you are open to the truth. wakeup.

Wakeup,

Are you not, like us all, instructed to remove the beam from your own ere before you try to remove the spec from your brother's?

[kerwin]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 02 2013,15:28)

Not T, don't worry. I have decided that i have learnt heaps from this thread, thank you all. But, before I get accused of being a false teacher (I honestly was not trying to teach, only learn) I think I am finished with this thread now. And I thank God for showing me so much. Amen.

2beesee,

I am sorry to see you go.

I hope I will be seeing you in another thread.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,16:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2013,13:23) To sum up: MY scripture-backed explanation of John 1:1 is accurate, and fits all the criteria. YOUR explanation remains this: 1.  The Word actually IS God, therefore John, for some odd reason, was telling us, “In the beginning was God.  And God was with God.  And God was God.” Hmmmm……………………  Does that really sound sensible to you, 2B? Yes, it does sound true because it is only the spirit of truth that leads us to all of the truth and the spirit of truth is what leads us to accept and believe that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. Perhaps mans mind cannot understand it but the spirit of truth does understand it.

I highly doubt that John was revealing to us all that, in the beginning, God was God.

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 02 2013,23:33)

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,16:37) God is only one – not a combo of Gods but one, Mind and Spirit. Agreed.  The Almighty Creator of all things is one God – and not a combo of more than one. Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,16:37) The word “God” when used in any other way in scripture, would have to be a title IF you believe ALL of the Scriptures that say that GOD IS ONE and that there is no other God beside Him. I agree that the word “god” is a title of a being, whether it is used of the Almighty God, Jehovah, or of any of the other many gods mentioned in scripture.  The word is a title, period. As for the scriptures that EMPHATICALLY say “God is one” etc., you must understand emphatic word usage in scripture to understand these scriptures.  For example, scripture says that God is the ONLY savior, and besides Him there is no savior.  But what, then, does this scripture mean: Nehemiah 9:27 But when they were oppressed they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them, and in your great compassion you gave them saviors, who rescued them from the hand of their enemies. Surely you can understand that God Himself was not the “savior” that He GAVE to the Israelites.  Therefore, you should be able to understand that when Hosea (or whoever) says God is the ONLY savior, it is an EMPHATICAL statement, meaning He is the GREATEST savior – and not LITERALLY the ONLY one. How about when Jesus says “only God is good”, but then calls HIMSELF “the good shepherd”?  Is God LITERALLY the ONLY one who is “good”, 2B?  Is Jesus “bad”?  Are the disciples “bad”?  Are Michael and Gabriel “bad”?  Of course not.   So if we are able to use our God-given common sense, and NOT take things like “ONLY good”, and “ONLY savior” LITERALLY…….. AND we already know from scriptures that there ARE INDEED many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth………….  then it really shouldn't be that hard to understand that Jehovah is the “ONLY god” in the same way He is the “ONLY good one”.  They are EMPHATIC statements, designed to place Jehovah ABOVE all the other “good ones”, “saviors”, and “gods”.

I hear what you are saying and I could go into detail regarding that (which I will not) ,but if you chose to use that as a reason to add the indefinite article to John 1:1 then you would also need to adjust Genesis 1:1 to fit your version of John 1:1.. So it would have to be:

'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
And another god said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.'

It does not seem to be right, does it.

(Just had to answer your post Mike, but I also have to try and be true to my word, so may see you in another thread)

[2besee]

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 03 2013,07:44)

2beesee, I am sorry to see you go. I hope I will be seeing you in another thread.

Thank you Kerwin and same to you.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,17:16)

His (Holy Spirit/Word) eyes Jesus are like a flame of fire, and on his (Holy Spirit/Word) head Jesus are many diadems……..

Hmmmm………….

The Holy Spirit's eyes, which are in fact Jesus Christ, are like a flame of fire?

The Holy Spirit's head, which is in fact Jesus Christ, has on it many diadems?

So Jesus Christ is the eyes and head of the Holy Spirit?

Does that really make sense to you, 2B? Or, are you being like Kerwin now – grasping at any nonsensical interpretation of scripture you can, just to keep your flawed doctrine afloat?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,21:36)

Can you limit your questions to perhaps one per post? That would help me.

To the best of my ability!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,22:28)

So, Mike, you admit then that 'Logos' is speech and word spoken and that in John 1:1 the 'Logos' is divine speech?

I admit that the Greek word “logos” means exactly what the English word “word” means. Most of the time, it refers to plain old words that are written or spoken. The Bible is the “word” of God, right? All that means is that the Bible contains the written teachings of God, ie: “words” that God spoke, and others wrote down. Most of the time, “word” just means “word” – and doesn't have any mysterious, secret, or hidden meaning.

2B, here is one of the “logos” scriptures you posted:

It was that the word (logos) spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:

Can that be rendered as “It was that the Holy Spirit spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:”?

Try the same with any of the scriptures you posted. Unless you can interchange “logos” for “Holy Spirit”, your understanding cannot possibly be correct.

As for MY understanding, Aaron is called “the mouth” of Moses. Now this doesn't mean that Aaron was a man-sized mouth. Nor does it mean that every other time we see the word “mouth” in scripture, it refers to a spokesman. But in that ONE instance, it is abundantly clear that by “mouth for Moses”, God means that Aaron will be the SPOKESMAN for Moses.

It is the same with Jesus being the Word of God. That title does not mean Jesus is a man-sized word. Nor does it mean that every other time we see the word “word” in the scriptures, it refers to Jesus, or a spokesman. But in those FEW instances (John 1:1, 1:14, 1 John 1:1, Rev 19:13- and perhaps a few others), it is abundantly clear that by “the Word”, John means that Jesus is the SPOKESMAN for God.

2B, just consider ALL the other things John says about “the Word” in those verses I listed above. There is NOBODY in the history of creation that would IDENTICALLY fit each and every thing said by John about the Word – EXCEPT FOR JESUS CHRIST.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 03 2013,03:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 02 2013,23:33) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,16:37) God is only one – not a combo of Gods but one, Mind and Spirit. Agreed.  The Almighty Creator of all things is one God – and not a combo of more than one. Quote (2besee @ Feb. 01 2013,16:37) The word “God” when used in any other way in scripture, would have to be a title IF you believe ALL of the Scriptures that say that GOD IS ONE and that there is no other God beside Him. I agree that the word “god” is a title of a being, whether it is used of the Almighty God, Jehovah, or of any of the other many gods mentioned in scripture.  The word is a title, period. As for the scriptures that EMPHATICALLY say “God is one” etc., you must understand emphatic word usage in scripture to understand these scriptures.  For example, scripture says that God is the ONLY savior, and besides Him there is no savior.  But what, then, does this scripture mean: Nehemiah 9:27 But when they were oppressed they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them, and in your great compassion you gave them saviors, who rescued them from the hand of their enemies. Surely you can understand that God Himself was not the “savior” that He GAVE to the Israelites.  Therefore, you should be able to understand that when Hosea (or whoever) says God is the ONLY savior, it is an EMPHATICAL statement, meaning He is the GREATEST savior – and not LITERALLY the ONLY one. How about when Jesus says “only God is good”, but then calls HIMSELF “the good shepherd”?  Is God LITERALLY the ONLY one who is “good”, 2B?  Is Jesus “bad”?  Are the disciples “bad”?  Are Michael and Gabriel “bad”?  Of course not.   So if we are able to use our God-given common sense, and NOT take things like “ONLY good”, and “ONLY savior” LITERALLY…….. AND we already know from scriptures that there ARE INDEED many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth………….  then it really shouldn't be that hard to understand that Jehovah is the “ONLY god” in the same way He is the “ONLY good one”.  They are EMPHATIC statements, designed to place Jehovah ABOVE all the other “good ones”, “saviors”, and “gods”. I hear what you are saying and I could go into detail regarding that (which I will not) ,but if you chose to use that as a reason to add the indefinite article to John 1:1 then you would also need to adjust Genesis 1:1 to fit your version of John 1:1.. So it would have to be: 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. And another god said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.' It does not seem to be right, does it. (Just had to answer your post Mike, but I also have to try and be true to my word, so may see you in another thread)

2bee

in Gen1;1 it talks about the creation beginning but physical world ,

in John 1;1 it talks about who his there with God at the beginning
in the spiritual creation ,and this is also what Paul under inspiration says;
Col 1:15 He(Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him(Christ) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by(through) him (Christ)and for him.(Christ)
Col 1:17 He(Christ) is before all things, and in him(Christ) all things hold together.

this is also true in ;Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me(Christ) forth as the first of his works,
before his (God)deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I(Christ) was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I(Jesus) was given birth,

Pr 8:30 Then I (Jesus)was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his(God) presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his(God) whole world
and delighting in mankind.

those scriptures are all in harmony with each other and make sens wen Christ says that he his from heaven and that he came down ,and that he now return to his father ,and now we can understand why it was only God son that could save humanity,it make sens ,with many other scriptures

[2besee]

I would love to comment but I won't.

Except Mike I also felt that I had something wrong with the eyes, head and the diadems part of Rev 19, and it needs further reading from me and understanding.

And Terraricca, there is an alternative possible rendering of Col 1:15-17 which I have made elsewhere.

But, enough said from me  (:

Peace.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 03 2013,04:37)

I would love to comment but I won't. Except Mike I also felt that I had something wrong with the eyes, head and the diadems part of Rev 19, and it needs further reading from me and understanding. And Terraricca, there is an alternative possible rendering of Col 1:15-17 which I have made elsewhere. But, enough said from me  (: Peace.

2bee

Quote

And Terraricca, there is an alternative possible rendering of Col 1:15-17 which I have made elsewhere.

I know quite a few my self ,but I only found one that fits all of the scriptures and that make sens as well,

and the scriptures i quoted you are only a few of some 50 ,or so ,

but i can defend my understand in scriptures in truth ,can you

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 02 2013,15:21)

……..if you chose to use that as a reason to add the indefinite article to John 1:1 then you would also need to adjust Genesis 1:1 to fit your version of John 1:1.. So it would have to be: And another god said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.'

Huh?    Why?  What would Jesus being with Jehovah in the beginning have to do with that other thing?

It was Jehovah who created all things.  It was Jehovah who said, “Let there be light”.

Jesus was one of the other gods who was with “THE God” in the beginning.  After all, God did say, “Let US make man in OUR image”, right?  Who do you suppose He was talking to?  (Watch the video and read my last post on the “Indeed there are many gods” thread.  He was talking to his “Divine Council” – which is made up of His spirit sons – who are also called “gods” in scripture.  It was to these same ones He spoke when, concerning Isaiah, He said, “Whom shall we send?  And who will go for us?” It was these same ones who came to present themselves before Jehovah in Job 1 and 2. And the very same ones who make up the “assembly of gods” spoken of in Psalm 82.)  

2B, I'm going to keep going down the verses in John 1 – showing you all how the words said about “The Word” match IDENTICALLY to Jesus.  I hope you continue to read those posts – even if you don't comment anymore.

The fact that you yourself notice “something wrong” with your interpretation of Rev 19 should be a big red flag.  If you can't even force it to make sense to you, then something is wrong with that interpretation.

Anyway, so far we have learned that John 1:1 fits perfectly with Jesus.  He was in the beginning with his own God, and he is a god (mighty one) himself.

Now, on to verse 2……………..

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 02 2013,16:21)

those scriptures are all in harmony with each other and make sens wen Christ says that he his from heaven and that he came down ,and that he now return to his father

Amen.  They make COMPLETE and UTTER sense, Pierre.

Does the fact that the Greek word “dia”, on RARE occasions, can be translated as “on account of” change the rest of the scriptures?  Does the fact that a Greek word CAN have some hardly used, alternate meaning in certain circumstances change what Col 1:16 clearly says – that all things were created THROUGH Jesus Christ?

We could all do that with Hebrew and Greek words.  In fact, if I decided that I didn't WANT God to have CREATED the world, I could point out that the Hebrew word “bara” actually means “fattened”, or “filled”.  So I could start my own PERSONALLY MOTIVATED doctrine, and teach that the heavens and the earth already existed from eternity, and God just “filled” them with things.

But would I be being true to the scriptures as a whole?  Of course not.  Similarly, saying that Paul said all things were created ON ACCOUNT OF Jesus is equally asinine as saying God only “filled” the heavens and the earth. The scriptures you posted show how God's written word all goes together perfectly.

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2013,05:37)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 02 2013,16:21) those scriptures are all in harmony with each other and make sens wen Christ says that he his from heaven and that he came down ,and that he now return to his father Amen.  They make COMPLETE and UTTER sense, Pierre. Does the fact that the Greek word “dia”, on RARE occasions, can be translated as “on account of” change the rest of the scriptures?  Does the fact that a Greek word CAN have some hardly used, alternate meaning in certain circumstances change what Col 1:16 clearly says – that all things were created THROUGH Jesus Christ? We could all do that with Hebrew and Greek words.  In fact, if I decided that I didn't WANT God to have CREATED the world, I could point out that the Hebrew word “bara” actually means “fattened”, or “filled”.  So I could start my own PERSONALLY MOTIVATED doctrine, and teach that the heavens and the earth already existed from eternity, and God just “filled” them with things. But would I be being true to the scriptures as a whole?  Of course not.  Similarly, saying that Paul said all things were created ON ACCOUNT OF Jesus is equally asinine as saying God only “filled” the heavens and the earth.  The scriptures you posted show how God's written word all goes together perfectly.

very true Mike and it also fit with what God was intending to do sins the beginning of Satan and man rebellion ,to bring back humanity and destroy the ungodly ,

and sins corruption can not produce a,uncorrupted man so God send his son from heaven to save us all by leading the way to salvation ,

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2013,10:19)

Jesus was one of the other gods who was with “THE God” in the beginning.  After all, God did say, “Let US make man in OUR image”, right?  Who do you suppose He was talking to?

Mike…….That is the exact teachings of the Gnostic's They believed Jesus was a “God”  sent out from the Gods to straighten out and save this world. Paul and John both Fought those teachings and that is what lead John to say anyone who does not admit Christ came in the Flesh is Antichrist.

Your denying the Christos (anointing Spirit) came and dwelt the flesh of Jesus , by making Jesus a God of his own. That is Antichrist , you are speaking against the Spirit of GOD, that came and made its abode “IN” Jesus and that is why He is called the Christ and that is Why he was both Son of Man through coming into existence in the Flesh as a pure human being and then receiving the Holy Spirit at the Jordan River and then becoming the Son of God by the anointing Spirit that dwelt “IN” Him.

The voice from heaven said this day I have begotten you” , not some preexistent time in creation but it said this “DAY”

2besee is completely right in what he explained and again as before you are denying the truth. Sad Brother. If you people were truly seeking the truth and had the Sp[rit of Truth “IN” you how could you not understand what He wrote?

peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………Think man, Think!

peace and love……………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

2besee……..The seven Eyes pictured in Revelations are the Seven (distinct) Spirit (intellects) or Attributes of the One GOD. They go before the Throne of God and go out into all the earth, they give Life to all creation .

That is the “Let US “spoken of in Genesis. IMO,  Jesus has all seven of the Eyes or Spirits (enlightenments of intellects) in him and (YAHWEH)  has also given him the Powers (horns) that go with them and with these he shall set up the Kingdom of God , it is really God himself “IN” Jesus that will set up and rule the Kingdom.

Therefore it says,  “thy Kingdom “O” God is and everlasting Kingdom”, and again, “UNTIL I (YAHWEH) Make your enemies your footstool”, how by the Seven Sprits of God with the pwoer to execute them “IN” Christ Jesus,  and the Saints  will bringing it all about.  

So in  that sense it really is God the Fathers Kingdom, and at the end of the thousand year period Jesus will completely step out of the picture and God the Father will sit as the Head of the Kingdom which He brought about “through Jesus and the Saints”> And the “ALL” people including Jesus and the Saint will be subject to the one and “ONLY” TRUE God.  

2besee i believe the biggest problem is not understanding what Spirit “IS”. Most see Spirit from a personified view as a person like a man, and scripture does present them that way i.e , Satan, God the Father, demonic Spirits, Devils, and the like. But Spirit is not a Person, Spirit is an “IT” and comes in different “TYPES” and “KINDS” in simplest form they are “INTELLECTS” which enlighten the mind, and can come and go in people. The LORD (YAHWEH) uses Seven types or kinds of Spirits as eyes for him and with these seven Spirits of God he created all creation that exists. Therefore they (the seven spirits of God ) are before the Throne of God, they are Creations of (YAHWEH) and he used them in his creative works.  The Spirit (intellect) of the Truth is just one of those Seven Spirits or eyes of God and “IT” is given to indwell us also sent to us from LORD (YAHWEH) to be with us forever. IMO

This Spirit ( is an intellect that give us cognate awareness of the truth) also as a result of knowing the truth, it gives us comfort and is therefore also called the comforter.

2besee my hope is you will not get discouraged by some of the commits made here by some incentive people and leave this site as other have.  Would like to know if you are involved in other sites, and ministries, you can send me a private messenger, i would like to stay in contact with you brother.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene

[Author]

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