In the Beginning

[2besee]

They seemed to understand 'the word' as being God's own word as spoken through His own mouth, just as we were saying.

[2besee]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2013,14:05)

Hi 2besee, What Mike said in the above post on the top of this page, ultimately amounts to saying that Jesus directly created all things and the Father indirectly created all things. Mike thinks that Jesus is the only thing that the Father directly created even though the Bible says that Jesus is the only 'begotten' (not created) Son, not the only directly created son/thing. I don't think that he realizes or appreciates that the Son directly created all things.

Hi Lightenup,

Read along, I am only coming to my understanding

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,14:06)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,18:28) Are you ready to accept the scriptures that clearly call Jesus a god, while understanding that although he is a god (mighty one), he is the THE God, Jehovah? Thank goodness that you all realized my words above were a typo! Of course I meant to say, “that although he is a god (mighty one), he is the NOT THE God, Jehovah?

Yes, realized.!

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,14:15)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2013,19:05) Hi 2besee, I don't think that he realizes or appreciates that the Son directly created all things. Go get her, 2B!    Tell her who the scriptures say created all things. Kathi, read the words of Tertullian once again.  There is ONE who created, and ANOTHER through whom the thing was created. There is only one scripture in the whole Bible that suggest Jesus “created” anything at all.  That scripture is John 2:15, which tells how Jesus “made” a whip from some cords. Other than that one scripture, Jesus is never said to have “made” anything at all. Kathi, you'll have to peddle your Trinitarian wares elsewhere.  There are no believers in two Almighty Gods on this thread.  You are welcome, however, to stay and help me convince these knuckleheads (jokingly, of course) that Jesus pre-existed his flesh.

The eternal spirit (son) pre-existed His flesh.
Flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit.

[2besee]

And that eternal spirit is the Holy Spirit.

[2besee]

Just a reminder: Hebrews 9:14 “How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

That is three.
Amen!

[2besee]

(No, that is not a trinity either). That is the eternal spirit of God (the Son) which is a part of the one true God YHVH, and the man Jesus Christ, the only sinless man whom ever existed, the second Adam. And we are saved through Him.

[2besee]

Hi all.
Sorry to flood the thread.
Okay, post more tomorrow!

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,13:51)

And Paul wrote:  there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Okay.
The Greek of Paul's words has:

but to us [there is] one God, the Father, of whom[are] all, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom[are] the things all, and we by Him.

In the word links above, all things are OF God the Father and all things are “on account of” or “because of” the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is two different words used yet the translators chose to translate them as meaning the same thing.

http://biblos.com/1_corinthians/8-6.htm

How do you understand this:

“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

[2besee]

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2013,21:16)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,18:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,12:59) Hi 2B, First of all, read Jeremiah 10 in context. I did (read Jeremiah 10 in context), which is how I found that particular verse. I was looking for something unrelated (to do with Christmas). Quote Secondly, understand that angels of Jehovah are called gods in scripture (as you yourself have pointed out in this thread).  Do you really think those faithful angels of God, who did not create the heavens and the earth, will perish from under heaven?  Do you think it is these good, faithful “gods” that Jehovah is talking about in that passage?  YES or NO, please. Could you show me where exactly it says that 'Angels are called “gods”'? I must have missed it, thank you. Quote Quote ………and there was no other god beside Him . Remind me of what scripture says those words. Remind you of what scripture says “and there was no other god beside Him”, again? Okay. Isaiah 44. [6] Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. [7] Who is like me? Let him proclaim it, let him declare and set it forth before me. Who has announced from of old the things to come? Let them tell us what is yet to be. [8] Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.“ [24] Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth — Who was with me? — [25] who frustrates the omens of liars, and makes fools of diviners; who turns wise men back, and makes their knowledge foolish. Would you like me to post more? 2Besee. This is true;all is from God even his word,is from God. But if God shared all his powers with his son;then his son also become as God, with equal powers.But he is still not his father. If God gave you all his powers;you will be as God,but you are still not God,because your power is from him,given to you. wakeup.

Hi Wakeup,
You said that Jesus become “as God” with equal powers, but is not the Father, just as if God gave another person His powers then that person would also be equal in power to God….

So then, when Jesus says that He 'is one with the Father' and He prays that others will also be like Him, ''one with the Father and Him', then, according to your beliefs, they will all be equal (in power) to God.

I don't think that I could believe like that.
I believe that equality with God is not something to be considered.

Perhaps you could show me a verse that says what you are saying?

[Wakeup]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,20:44)

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2013,21:16) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,18:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,12:59) Hi 2B, First of all, read Jeremiah 10 in context. I did (read Jeremiah 10 in context), which is how I found that particular verse. I was looking for something unrelated (to do with Christmas). Quote Secondly, understand that angels of Jehovah are called gods in scripture (as you yourself have pointed out in this thread).  Do you really think those faithful angels of God, who did not create the heavens and the earth, will perish from under heaven?  Do you think it is these good, faithful “gods” that Jehovah is talking about in that passage?  YES or NO, please. Could you show me where exactly it says that 'Angels are called “gods”'? I must have missed it, thank you. Quote Quote ………and there was no other god beside Him . Remind me of what scripture says those words. Remind you of what scripture says “and there was no other god beside Him”, again? Okay. Isaiah 44. [6] Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. [7] Who is like me? Let him proclaim it, let him declare and set it forth before me. Who has announced from of old the things to come? Let them tell us what is yet to be. [8] Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.“ [24] Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth — Who was with me? — [25] who frustrates the omens of liars, and makes fools of diviners; who turns wise men back, and makes their knowledge foolish. Would you like me to post more? 2Besee. This is true;all is from God even his word,is from God. But if God shared all his powers with his son;then his son also become as God, with equal powers.But he is still not his father. If God gave you all his powers;you will be as God,but you are still not God,because your power is from him,given to you. wakeup. Hi Wakeup, You said that Jesus become “as God” with equal powers, but is not the Father, just as if God gave another person His powers then that person would also be equal in power to God…. So then, when Jesus says that He 'is one with the Father' and He prays that others will also be like Him, ''one with the Father and Him', then, according to your beliefs, they will all be equal (in power) to God. I don't think that I could believe like that. I believe that equality with God is not something to be considered. Perhaps you could show me a verse that says what you are saying?

2Besee.

I am not saying that God will give all his power to us.
If he did, than we will have all his power,but he wont give us all his power. He only gave all his power to his son.So his son is as God,but still not God himself,God can always take away that power if he wants,but he wont,because Jesus is his only BEGOTTEN SON.

wakeup.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,14:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,14:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2013,19:05) Hi 2besee, I don't think that he realizes or appreciates that the Son directly created all things. Go get her, 2B!    Tell her who the scriptures say created all things. Kathi, read the words of Tertullian once again.  There is ONE who created, and ANOTHER through whom the thing was created. There is only one scripture in the whole Bible that suggest Jesus “created” anything at all.  That scripture is John 2:15, which tells how Jesus “made” a whip from some cords. Other than that one scripture, Jesus is never said to have “made” anything at all. Kathi, you'll have to peddle your Trinitarian wares elsewhere.  There are no believers in two Almighty Gods on this thread.  You are welcome, however, to stay and help me convince these knuckleheads (jokingly, of course) that Jesus pre-existed his flesh. The eternal spirit (son) pre-existed His flesh. Flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit.

2bee

what is the spirit in those words of Paul

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2013,15:52)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,20:44) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2013,21:16) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,18:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,12:59) Hi 2B, First of all, read Jeremiah 10 in context. I did (read Jeremiah 10 in context), which is how I found that particular verse. I was looking for something unrelated (to do with Christmas). Quote Secondly, understand that angels of Jehovah are called gods in scripture (as you yourself have pointed out in this thread).  Do you really think those faithful angels of God, who did not create the heavens and the earth, will perish from under heaven?  Do you think it is these good, faithful “gods” that Jehovah is talking about in that passage?  YES or NO, please. Could you show me where exactly it says that 'Angels are called “gods”'? I must have missed it, thank you. Quote Quote ………and there was no other god beside Him . Remind me of what scripture says those words. Remind you of what scripture says “and there was no other god beside Him”, again? Okay. Isaiah 44. [6] Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. [7] Who is like me? Let him proclaim it, let him declare and set it forth before me. Who has announced from of old the things to come? Let them tell us what is yet to be. [8] Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.“ [24] Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth — Who was with me? — [25] who frustrates the omens of liars, and makes fools of diviners; who turns wise men back, and makes their knowledge foolish. Would you like me to post more? 2Besee. This is true;all is from God even his word,is from God. But if God shared all his powers with his son;then his son also become as God, with equal powers.But he is still not his father. If God gave you all his powers;you will be as God,but you are still not God,because your power is from him,given to you. wakeup. Hi Wakeup, You said that Jesus become “as God” with equal powers, but is not the Father, just as if God gave another person His powers then that person would also be equal in power to God…. So then, when Jesus says that He 'is one with the Father' and He prays that others will also be like Him, ''one with the Father and Him', then, according to your beliefs, they will all be equal (in power) to God. I don't think that I could believe like that. I believe that equality with God is not something to be considered. Perhaps you could show me a verse that says what you are saying? 2Besee. I am not saying that God will give all his power to us. If he did, than we will have all his power,but he wont give us all his power. He only gave all his power to his son.So his son is as God,but still not God himself,God can always take away that power if he wants,but he wont,because Jesus is his only BEGOTTEN SON. wakeup.

wup

what is the difference between POWER and AUTHORITY

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,14:26)

They seemed to understand 'the word' as being God's own word as spoken through His own mouth, just as we were saying.

2bee

but how can YOU WORDS WALK, and have Grace and truth (understanding) so that your mind is dead ,but only your word is walking the earth ,and can be touched ,and seen live with ,

SHOW ME THOSE THINGS ,WITHOUT INVENTING IDEAS ,THE RADIO AND TAPE RECORDER WAS NOT A PUBLIC ACCESSORY YET

[kerwin]

Mike,

We have already coverred these things but perhaps they were hidden from you by the volume of the conversation.

1 Corinthians 2:10-11
King James Version (KJV)

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

We learn:

1) The Spirit knows the things of God.
2) No one else knows the things of God.
3) The Spirit reveals the things of God to believers.

Jesus is not the Spirit and so would not know the things of God unless he is one of those the Spirit reveals them to.

So lets us look at John's words on the matter.

John 1:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 Corinthians 2:10-11 has taught us and so we know;

1) The Spirit is the one that knows all things of God and so sees God as he is.
2) The Spirit is the one that reveals/declares God to believers; of whom Jesus is the Chief One.

It is easy to see that the only begotten is the Spirit and Jesus is the Chief of those that he has revealed/declared God too.

Do you believe the Spirit is located in God's bosom?

Here is where Jesus declares God revealed/declared/dilivered all things to him.

Matthew 11:27
King James Version (KJV)

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

and

Luke 10:22
King James Version (KJV)

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Jesus did not know all things and did not know God until Jehovah delivered them to him through the Spirit.

Here is what is written:

Galatians 1:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Is Paul speaking of Jesus when he states “Son in me” or is he speaking of the Spirit?

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin……He is speaking of the Spirit, you have it right brother. If we have the Sprit of God “IN” us, it is the same Sprit that the Son has in him also and we are then “IN” him and He is “IN” us also as well as “in” the Father Also.

peace and Love to you and yours…………………….gene

[Lightenup]

Hi 2besee,
It doesn't appear that you have ever considered that YHVH is one corporate/compound unity with each member also called YHVH. Have you just assumed that YHVH is a name for one…one person?

Do you realize the Israel is a compound unity of the sons of Israel + Jacob who is called Israel?
So, with Israel as an example…
Israel is a name of one man-Jacob.
Israel is also the name of the sons of Israel as a group.

YHVH is a name of one divine being-the Father
YHVH is also the name of the son of YHVH the Father (the Father gave the Son His (the Father's name, see John 17)
YHVH is also the name of the unity of the Father and the Son together with their Spirit.

[2besee]

Hi Mike.
Let us not bring the “early church fathers” into the thread. They were inconsistent in what they wrote.

Hermas and a few other writings such as (Clement I think?) were considered as canon in the beginning of the church and so these can be classed as fine, though not as trustworthy as scripture, k.

[2besee]

Hi Lup.
Have you ever considered that perhaps the Son is the eternal Spirit which had no beginning as in was not created but is a part of the one true God YHVH just as a persons spirit is a part of the totality of who they are?

[2besee]

Lup, therefore, 'God is one'.

[Author]

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