In the Beginning

[GeneBalthrop]

To all……….why not just believe Jesus. “for thou art the “ONLY” “TRUE” God” take each individual word used there and ask yourself what does it mean. Well at least we know Jesus only had one person he called a ” true” God, no matter how many false Gods Mike,Pierre and T8 have created. I also only believe in only one true God and that God is not Jesus or any other so-called God created buy the mind of man.

Peace and love to you all………………gene

[2besee]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2013,16:55)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,06:50) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2013,13:45) 2bee Quote is that like how the OT tells us that there was only one God and that only one God created the entire universe with his own (moving) spirit and His own (spoken) word, and that, obviously, the spirit and the word was God's own spirit and God's own word, the spirit and the word being part of the entirety of the one God, just as your word and your spirit is a part of the entirety of you, then…… how do you change that entire understanding to mean that the word that is a part of God in John 1:1 can, instead, mean “another god”, or another godlike created creature, when the scriptures say: wen and who are the 100,000,000 angels that God created ,were those siting in the audience while God was creating all things Yes T, I know your understanding, but can you show me a single verse in scripture that tells us that the Angels created anything at all? Just a verse. 2bee that is not what I said or think ,but you did not answer my question ;every angel in heaven as a job to do ;they are not creators but have been created , that is my point ;they are servants of God for Godly works (whatever that may be ) note that if you working at the FORD plan assembling the cars you are not the creator of that car, only a participant in the production of them

Hi T,

You were trying to say in a 'sneaky/ asking /implying something' sort of way:)………. that the Angels must of had some part in creating………. under the rule of God….. much like we men do…….. the designer, the workers, etc…… but Hey, T,

1) Scripture nowhere says that.
2) Scripture does say that God alone created the heavens and the earth, and,
3) That, it was done in six literal days, through his spirit and his word.

If God can destroy the earth in one literal day (do you believe that) then God can also create a lot of things in six days, through his power, His will, His spirit, and His word, and everything that God is, that we are not.

[2besee]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 20 2013,19:41)

2beesee, All gods means is children of the most high.  It is speaking of all the children of Israel as all of them received the law and not just certain rulers.  I am not sure why anyone misunderstands the quote as Jesus interpretation is “if he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came” I also have trouble understanding why people have trouble understanding that God's children are gods, especially as he paraphrases Deuteronomy 14:1 which states “Ye are the children of the Lord your God” and he literally states it in Psalms 82:6.  It is not the only place they are literally called gods, as they called gods in Psalms 97:7 as well. Some, who's ignorance is obvious, equate being a god to being the same kind as Yawheh.  There is but one God.

Mike, Kerwin answered it for me exactly as I thought before I went searching the Internet (out of curiosity).

Whatever is called a god/God has a completely different meaning to the one true God YHVH.

it is a simple thing to understand…. it is like comparing the sun to a stone though both are a part of the universe.

[kerwin]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,13:43)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 20 2013,19:41) 2beesee, All gods means is children of the most high.  It is speaking of all the children of Israel as all of them received the law and not just certain rulers.  I am not sure why anyone misunderstands the quote as Jesus interpretation is “if he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came” I also have trouble understanding why people have trouble understanding that God's children are gods, especially as he paraphrases Deuteronomy 14:1 which states “Ye are the children of the Lord your God” and he literally states it in Psalms 82:6.  It is not the only place they are literally called gods, as they called gods in Psalms 97:7 as well. Some, who's ignorance is obvious, equate being a god to being the same kind as Yawheh.  There is but one God. Mike, Kerwin answered it for me exactly as I thought before I went searching the Internet (out of curiosity). Whatever is called a god/God has a completely different meaning to the one true God YHVH. it is a simple thing to understand…. it is like comparing the sun to a stone though both are a part of the universe.

2beesee,

I do searches on the internet and then test the spirit of what I find; just like I do of the words of fellow heaven.net users.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,13:34)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2013,16:55) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,06:50) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2013,13:45) 2bee Quote is that like how the OT tells us that there was only one God and that only one God created the entire universe with his own (moving) spirit and His own (spoken) word, and that, obviously, the spirit and the word was God's own spirit and God's own word, the spirit and the word being part of the entirety of the one God, just as your word and your spirit is a part of the entirety of you, then…… how do you change that entire understanding to mean that the word that is a part of God in John 1:1 can, instead, mean “another god”, or another godlike created creature, when the scriptures say: wen and who are the 100,000,000 angels that God created ,were those siting in the audience while God was creating all things Yes T, I know your understanding, but can you show me a single verse in scripture that tells us that the Angels created anything at all? Just a verse. 2bee that is not what I said or think ,but you did not answer my question ;every angel in heaven as a job to do ;they are not creators but have been created , that is my point ;they are servants of God for Godly works (whatever that may be ) note that if you working at the FORD plan assembling the cars you are not the creator of that car, only a participant in the production of them Hi T, You were trying to say in a 'sneaky/ asking /implying something' sort of way:)………. that the Angels must of had some part in creating………. under the rule of God….. much like we men do…….. the designer, the workers, etc…… but Hey, T, 1) Scripture nowhere says that. 2) Scripture does say that God alone created the heavens and the earth, and, 3) That, it was done in six literal days, through his spirit and his word. If God can destroy the earth in one literal day (do you believe that) then God can also create a lot of things in six days, through his power, His will, His spirit, and His word, and everything that God is, that we are not.

2bee

Quote

You were trying to say in a 'sneaky/ asking /implying something' sort of way:)………. that the Angels must of had some part in creating………. under the rule of God….. much like we men do…….. the designer, the workers, etc…… but Hey, T,

No,you got it all wrong ,first you show that you do not know what creation means ,and also what that imply wen it says that God create all things, and you also do not understand the days of creation ,and I start to believe that you do not understand men's creation either ,

so before dealing with God abilities to destroy things or his will to destroy anything ,you should be more careful to what is written in scriptures ,because it looks that you have missed a turn ,on the way to the truth ,

God did not have his written words ,written for anyone to follow as to the letter,but it has to be revealed to each person as God see fit ,if not received, then that person can not on his own understanding have access to the true understanding of God's word.

one more thing ,not all truth is revealed to one single person ,
so that the truth his share among many true believers

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,01:43)

Mike, Kerwin answered it for me exactly as I thought before I went searching the Internet………..

Hi 2B,

I suggest you read my last post in the “Indeed there are many gods” thread.  Watch the video, and tell me if this guy is scripturally inaccurate.

In fact, why don't we all take this part of the discussion to that thread?  (It seems no one wants to tackle this issue head on – in the thread I designed specifically for this topic.  Why is that?  I suspect that you all feel safer just spouting your unscriptural claims about gods in other threads, where you can easily run away from the subject when cornered by the scriptures themselves.  Man up and come to the thread designed to get to the bottom of this subject.)

Also, 2B, you have already acknowledged that Jesus is called a god in scripture, right?  How then can you SERIOUSLY believe that Jehovah is LITERALLY the ONLY god?  How can you claim that Jehovah is LITERALLY the only TRUE god?  

2B, is your Lord Jesus Christ a “false god”?  YES or NO?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 20 2013,00:53)

Well at least we know Jesus only had one person he called a ” true” God, no matter how many false Gods Mike,Pierre and T8 have created.

Gene,

Do you believe Jesus is good? YES or NO?

[mikeboll64]

Here is the thread I just mentioned.  I've posted this link in this thread before, but as of yet, none of you guys want to go to that thread and put your money where your mouth is.

This is a part of my last post on that thread, which discusses the claim that Psalm 82 is about judges of Israel:

4.  Evangelicals try to explain these “gods” as human judges.  This Biblical expert says, They buy into the liberal view that we must protect the Bible from being polytheistic.  But 89:1 has similar language and says these sons of God meet in the clouds, or in heaven – so the “assembly of the gods” is in heaven, a place were no human judges met at large with God.  Also, Psalm 82 is talking about these gods being judged because of their corrupt administration of the nations of the world – as per Deut 32:8.

Deuteronomy 32:8 NET
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided up humankind, he set the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the heavenly assembly.

When did God ever divide up humankind according to the judges of Israel?  Doesn't this understanding fit perfectly with the “gods of Egypt”, who were able to match many of the miracles Jehovah did through Moses, and then were ultimately PUNISHED by Jehovah along with Pharaoh?  (How does Jehovah PUNISH a man-made idol?  How does a man-made idol turn water into blood, and produce frogs out of thin air?)  

Doesn't it fit perfectly with the “Prince of Persia”, mentioned in Daniel?  Who is that spirit being that withheld Daniel's angel from coming?  And how is he the “Prince of Persia”?  He must be a very powerful spirit being if Michael himself had to be sent to overpower him and release Daniel's angel, right?

We need only READ the Bible WITHOUT trying to protect it from itself, guys.  

Did Paul call Satan the “false god” of this age?  Did he call him the “so-called god” of this age?  NO!  So why would man take it upon himself to “protect the Bible from itself” by adding the words “false” and “so-called” into scriptures that don't even mention those words?  Did Paul clearly say, “as indeed there ARE many gods”?

What about Molech, the god of Moab, who brought wrath down upon the Israelites after the king sacrificed his son to him? (2 Kings 3:27) How does a “false idol” bring wrath down upon God's own nation?

This stuff is all in the scriptures, guys.  All you have to do is read it and believe.

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

K You are correct that the Word is Jesus Christ.  You are incorrect in your random combination of Greek nouns and verbs, linking them together hap-hazardly to make it seem like “The Word Made Flesh” is the title of a particular entity, or person.

I looked at it more like math in that the Word + flesh = the Word + flesh with “was made” and “made” being different parts of English that are equivilent to “+”.  The aspect of flesh was added to the Word. John does not state how this was done in this passage.  That information comes from reading other passages.  Stating Jesus Christ is the Word in flesh is equivilent to stating Jesus is the Word made flesh.

The next “+” in the equation is a position “change” of the Word heralded by the conjunction “and”.  

The next “+” is speaking of an action performed by a third party, so I will to a point ignore it. The point I am not ignoring is that the Word with the aspect of flesh and whose position is among us, also has the aspect of a glory as of the only begotten of Jehovah. Both glories are full of grace and truth.

Jesus Christ bears the name of Emmanuel which means God is with us.  

Looking at John 1:1 is either states

1) The Word is with God and the Word is God
2) The Word is with God and the Word is a god.

If it states # 1 then John is teaching us Jesus Christ is Emmanual.  If it is #2 then John is teaching us that Jesus Christ is a god made flesh that dwells among us.

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2013,13:54)

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten,who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Kerwin and 2B, let's discuss this one scripture for a minute.  We'll work it back to front: ……full of grace and truth. 1.  Who was full of “grace” and “truth”?  (John 1:17 might help you to answer this one.) ….who came from the Father…….. 2.  Who “came from the Father”?  (John 16:28 will help you with this one.) We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten…….. 3.  Whose glory did John and the others see?  (John 2:11) 4.  Who is the ONLY one in existence that would have the glory of the only begotten of God?  (Please answer this one.) 5.  Who do we all know is the only begotten of God?  (John 3:16, etc.) 6.  Does “Jesus Christ” fit perfectly as the answer to all 5 previous questions?  YES or NO? 7.  Does the answer “Holy Spirit” fit all 5?  YES or NO? 8.  Does the answer “God Himself” fit all 5?  YES or NO?

These eight questions?

[2besee]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 21 2013,06:50)

2beesee, I do searches on the internet and then test the spirit of what I find; just like I do of the words of fellow heaven.net users.

I don't like doing Internet searches anymore, there are far too many opinions. I do use biblos.com and occasionally wikipedia for facts.

If you have ever read some other Internet Forums, and all of the different opinions, it is crazy.

[2besee]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2013,07:20)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,13:34) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2013,16:55) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,06:50) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2013,13:45) 2bee Quote is that like how the OT tells us that there was only one God and that only one God created the entire universe with his own (moving) spirit and His own (spoken) word, and that, obviously, the spirit and the word was God's own spirit and God's own word, the spirit and the word being part of the entirety of the one God, just as your word and your spirit is a part of the entirety of you, then…… how do you change that entire understanding to mean that the word that is a part of God in John 1:1 can, instead, mean “another god”, or another godlike created creature, when the scriptures say: wen and who are the 100,000,000 angels that God created ,were those siting in the audience while God was creating all things Yes T, I know your understanding, but can you show me a single verse in scripture that tells us that the Angels created anything at all? Just a verse. 2bee that is not what I said or think ,but you did not answer my question ;every angel in heaven as a job to do ;they are not creators but have been created , that is my point ;they are servants of God for Godly works (whatever that may be ) note that if you working at the FORD plan assembling the cars you are not the creator of that car, only a participant in the production of them Hi T, You were trying to say in a 'sneaky/ asking /implying something' sort of way:)………. that the Angels must of had some part in creating………. under the rule of God….. much like we men do…….. the designer, the workers, etc…… but Hey, T, 1) Scripture nowhere says that. 2) Scripture does say that God alone created the heavens and the earth, and, 3) That, it was done in six literal days, through his spirit and his word. If God can destroy the earth in one literal day (do you believe that) then God can also create a lot of things in six days, through his power, His will, His spirit, and His word, and everything that God is, that we are not. 2bee Quote You were trying to say in a 'sneaky/ asking /implying something' sort of way:)………. that the Angels must of had some part in creating………. under the rule of God….. much like we men do…….. the designer, the workers, etc…… but Hey, T, No,you got it all wrong ,first you show that you do not know what creation means ,and also what that imply wen it says that God create all things, and you also do not understand the days of creation ,and I start to believe that you do not understand men's creation either , so before dealing with God abilities to destroy things or his will to destroy anything ,you should be more careful to what is written in scriptures ,because it looks that you have missed a turn ,on the way to the truth , God did not have his written words ,written for anyone to follow as to the letter,but it has to be revealed to each person as God see fit ,if not received, then that person can not on his own understanding have access to the true understanding of God's word. one more thing ,not all truth is revealed to one single person , so that the truth his share among many true believers

T, do you believe that Jesus was an Angel before He came to Earth?

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,07:33)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,01:43) Mike, Kerwin answered it for me exactly as I thought before I went searching the Internet……….. Hi 2B, I suggest you read my last post in the “Indeed there are many gods” thread.  Watch the video, and tell me if this guy is scripturally inaccurate. In fact, why don't we all take this part of the discussion to that thread?  (It seems no one wants to tackle this issue head on – in the thread I designed specifically for this topic.  Why is that?  I suspect that you all feel safer just spouting your unscriptural claims about gods in other threads, where you can easily run away from the subject when cornered by the scriptures themselves.  Man up and come to the thread designed to get to the bottom of this subject.) Also, 2B, you have already acknowledged that Jesus is called a god in scripture, right?  How then can you SERIOUSLY believe that Jehovah is LITERALLY the ONLY god?  How can you claim that Jehovah is LITERALLY the only TRUE god?   2B, is your Lord Jesus Christ a “false god”?  YES or NO?

I believe that Jesus has been given all authority from the Father and so Jesus can be called “God”.

I do not believe that before Jesus, there was another such as Jesus now, apart from The Father of course.

]quote]2B, is your Lord Jesus Christ a “false god”? YES or NO?[/quote]

NO. The Father and Jesus are one.

[2besee]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 21 2013,06:50)

and then test the spirit of what I find; just like I do of the words of fellow heaven.net users.

Hi Kerwin,
Testing the spirit is something that is learnt, and when learnt, the effects are not so personal…. and a seeker can be found..

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,05:34)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 20 2013,00:53) Well at least we know Jesus only had one person he called a ” true” God, no matter how many false Gods Mike,Pierre and T8 have created. Gene, Do you believe Jesus is good?  YES or NO?

Mike, lets let Jesus answer this for you OK.?

Why callest thou me good for there is only one that is good and that is God.

So you answer is given you by Jesus himself. And that is not only his answer about who is “only” good but if you have eyes to see it should explained to you that Jesus there was denying he was a God also because he said only “ONE” is “GOOD”  

So the question remains when are you going to start to believe Jesus Mike.?  

Peace and love to you and yours………………….Mike

[2besee]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 21 2013,11:55)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,07:33) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,01:43) Mike, Kerwin answered it for me exactly as I thought before I went searching the Internet……….. Hi 2B, I suggest you read my last post in the “Indeed there are many gods” thread.  Watch the video, and tell me if this guy is scripturally inaccurate. In fact, why don't we all take this part of the discussion to that thread?  (It seems no one wants to tackle this issue head on – in the thread I designed specifically for this topic.  Why is that?  I suspect that you all feel safer just spouting your unscriptural claims about gods in other threads, where you can easily run away from the subject when cornered by the scriptures themselves.  Man up and come to the thread designed to get to the bottom of this subject.) Also, 2B, you have already acknowledged that Jesus is called a god in scripture, right?  How then can you SERIOUSLY believe that Jehovah is LITERALLY the ONLY god?  How can you claim that Jehovah is LITERALLY the only TRUE god?   2B, is your Lord Jesus Christ a “false god”?  YES or NO? I believe that Jesus has been given all authority from the Father and so Jesus can be called “God”. I do not believe that before Jesus, there was another such as Jesus now, apart from The Father of course. ]quote]2B, is your Lord Jesus Christ a “false god”?  YES or NO?[/quote] NO. The Father and Jesus are one.

Hang on Mike, that is a bit of a trick question.
The more that I thought about it…. If I saw Jesus coming from heaven on the clouds, say… I would word it as 'It is the Lord' or 'It is Jesus'. I would not say or think 'It is God' because I know that God is 'God'.

I need to work more on this.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 21 2013,04:51)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2013,07:20) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,13:34) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2013,16:55) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,06:50) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2013,13:45) 2bee Quote is that like how the OT tells us that there was only one God and that only one God created the entire universe with his own (moving) spirit and His own (spoken) word, and that, obviously, the spirit and the word was God's own spirit and God's own word, the spirit and the word being part of the entirety of the one God, just as your word and your spirit is a part of the entirety of you, then…… how do you change that entire understanding to mean that the word that is a part of God in John 1:1 can, instead, mean “another god”, or another godlike created creature, when the scriptures say: wen and who are the 100,000,000 angels that God created ,were those siting in the audience while God was creating all things Yes T, I know your understanding, but can you show me a single verse in scripture that tells us that the Angels created anything at all? Just a verse. 2bee that is not what I said or think ,but you did not answer my question ;every angel in heaven as a job to do ;they are not creators but have been created , that is my point ;they are servants of God for Godly works (whatever that may be ) note that if you working at the FORD plan assembling the cars you are not the creator of that car, only a participant in the production of them Hi T, You were trying to say in a 'sneaky/ asking /implying something' sort of way:)………. that the Angels must of had some part in creating………. under the rule of God….. much like we men do…….. the designer, the workers, etc…… but Hey, T, 1) Scripture nowhere says that. 2) Scripture does say that God alone created the heavens and the earth, and, 3) That, it was done in six literal days, through his spirit and his word. If God can destroy the earth in one literal day (do you believe that) then God can also create a lot of things in six days, through his power, His will, His spirit, and His word, and everything that God is, that we are not. 2bee Quote You were trying to say in a 'sneaky/ asking /implying something' sort of way:)………. that the Angels must of had some part in creating………. under the rule of God….. much like we men do…….. the designer, the workers, etc…… but Hey, T, No,you got it all wrong ,first you show that you do not know what creation means ,and also what that imply wen it says that God create all things, and you also do not understand the days of creation ,and I start to believe that you do not understand men's creation either , so before dealing with God abilities to destroy things or his will to destroy anything ,you should be more careful to what is written in scriptures ,because it looks that you have missed a turn ,on the way to the truth , God did not have his written words ,written for anyone to follow as to the letter,but it has to be revealed to each person as God see fit ,if not received, then that person can not on his own understanding have access to the true understanding of God's word. one more thing ,not all truth is revealed to one single person , so that the truth his share among many true believers T, do you believe that Jesus was an Angel before He came to Earth?

2bee

I believe that Christ is the Only begotten son of God ,because he his the first creation of God ,and that all other things that God created was done through the son, and that the reason for him to be the second to his father his because he serve the cause for the most ,(all of creation)

Clo:1:15-21. Also. Prov:8:22 -31

Christ his the son of God and by that position why would you find it strange that he would be called a god
Why by saying this would take anything away from the father

Christ his suprem in all things,

[kerwin]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 21 2013,04:49)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 21 2013,06:50) 2beesee, I do searches on the internet and then test the spirit of what I find; just like I do of the words of fellow heaven.net users. I don't like doing Internet searches anymore, there are far too many opinions. I do use biblos.com and occasionally wikipedia for facts. If you have ever read some other Internet Forums, and all of the different opinions, it is crazy.

2beesee,

Forums are further from the source. I not only test the claim but also look to find information as close to a reliable source as I can. The bible being the most reliable.

[2besee]

Mike, your questions:

Mike: 1) Who was full of grace and truth?

2besee: Jesus the man was full of grace and truth. He had his own grace and truth due to his perfection as a man, and he was also full of the eternal spirit (John 3:34)
“For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for it is not by measure that he gives the Spirit”  

——————-

Mike: 2)Who came from the Father?

2besee: The eternal spirit son (the Holy Spirit) came from the Father.

————————

Mike: 3)Whose glory did John and the others see?  (John 2:11)

2besee: Answered in Q1.

———————-

Mike: 4)Who is the ONLY one in existence that would have the glory of the only begotten of God?  (Please answer this one.)

2besee: Jesus.

———————

Mike: 5)Who do we all know is the only begotten of God?  (John 3:16, etc.)

2besee: Jesus.

——————–

Mike: 6)Does “Jesus Christ” fit perfectly as the answer to all 5 previous questions?  YES or NO?

2besee: Yes, through the eternal spirit.

——————

Mike: 7)Does the answer “Holy Spirit” fit all 5?  YES or NO?

2besee: Yes.

——————

Mike: 8)Does the answer “God Himself” fit all 5?  YES or NO?

2besee: “The spirit of God” does.

Nobody knows the â ↓ things of God â ↓ except the â ↓ Spirit of God â ↓  
Nobody knows the â ↑ ……Father……â ↑ except the â ↑ ……..Son…….â ↑ (and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him).

—————-

Next I would like to ask you some questions.

[2besee]

Thank you Kerwin and T, points noted.

[Author]

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