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Mike……..Your problem is with the word before, it is not referencing time of berth or creation at all in the context John was speaking of, but a preference Based on the scriptures prophesying Jesus' place of importance in scripture placed him higher and before John in importance. Jesus was assigned his roll in history way before he was ever born. Just as king Cryus was 200 years before his berth.
Peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 19 2013,11:51) Mike……..Your problem is with the word before, it is not referencing time of berth or creation at all in the context John was speaking of, but a preference Based on the scriptures prophesying Jesus' place of importance in scripture placed him higher and before John in importance. Jesus was assigned his roll in history way before he was ever born. Just as king Cryus was 200 years before his berth. Peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
GYou say that Christ his born of a women ,and declare Christ more important as your explanation ,but Christ himself says that from all the man born of a woman John the Baptist was the greates Mat:11:11
You have your opinion mixed up
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2013,10:14) Okay, Since apparently, none of you non-preexisters cares to actually answer my 8 simple questions from the other post, I'll move on to my next point:
John 1:15
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”It seems we all (Kerwin, 2B, and myself) agree verse 15 was written about the Word of God from verse 1, right?
So how do you guys explain verse 30?
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
Kerwin, is this another case of the same exact thing being said about the Word AND about Jesus?
Mike,I am not even sure where questions are. I like to converse and not just be quizzed.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 19 2013,20:30) Mike, I am not even sure where questions are. I like to converse and not just be quizzed.
Amen, Mike, sorry but, me too.i tend to go with where ever I am being led, and if somebody asks “question after question” i become lost and my mind won't think properly.
Quote (2besee @ Jan. 19 2013,13:33) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 19 2013,20:30) Mike, I am not even sure where questions are. I like to converse and not just be quizzed.
Amen, Mike, sorry but, me too.i tend to go with where ever I am being led, and if somebody asks “question after question” i become lost and my mind won't think properly.
You guy,s could be lost in your own house
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2013,18:11) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 19 2013,11:51) Mike……..Your problem is with the word before, it is not referencing time of berth or creation at all in the context John was speaking of, but a preference Based on the scriptures prophesying Jesus' place of importance in scripture placed him higher and before John in importance. Jesus was assigned his roll in history way before he was ever born. Just as king Cryus was 200 years before his berth. Peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
GYou say that Christ his born of a women ,and declare Christ more important as your explanation ,but Christ himself says that from all the man born of a woman John the Baptist was the greates Mat:11:11
You have your opinion mixed up
Mike……….Lets not forget the rest of what Jesus said in that sentence about John the Baptist but the “least” in the kingdom of God is “greater” then he .See how you use scripture falsely to get your points across, you deliberately leave off or add to the context of what is really written.
Peace and love to you and yours ……………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2013,09:02) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 17 2013,23:27) Mike. Quote ….who came from the Father……..
2. Who “came from the Father”? (John 16:28 will help you with this one.)A whole lot
John the Baptist, John 1:6;
His baptism, Mark 11:30;
everything a man receives, John 3:27.
The Christ,
The word of God, Isaiah 55:11
Good Kerwin.Now, which of your answers came from the Father and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?
Mike,The Word made flesh is Jesus Christ since the Word was made flesh in him.
The flesh is Jesus.
The Word made flesh comes from God.
The Word made flesh dwells among us
The Word made flesh has a glory that is like the only begotten of God.The Word has the greater claim to all these characteristics as it is the more fundamental than Jesus Christ since without the Word there is no Jesus Christ.
What does the phrase “New friends are hope made flesh” mean?
My source.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 18 2013,23:51) Mike……..Your problem is with the word before………….
Gene,I'm not even talking about the word “before”. I'm showing you that the SAME EXACT words were said by John about the Word and about Jesus.
Don't you find that odd if Jesus is not the Word?
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2013,01:11) G You say that Christ his born of a women ,and declare Christ more important as your explanation ,but Christ himself says that from all the man born of a woman John the Baptist was the greates Mat:11:11
You have your opinion mixed up
Great point, Pierre.
Gene, do you think that Jesus considered John the Baptist to be greater than himself among the human beings?
Quote (2besee @ Jan. 19 2013,01:33) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 19 2013,20:30) Mike, I am not even sure where questions are. I like to converse and not just be quizzed.
Amen, Mike, sorry but, me too.
Really guys?
You can't answer my other 8 questions with the simple, one-word answers they need? And now, you PRETEND like you don't even know what I'm talking about?
Oh, brother!
2B and Kerwin,
WHY do you suppose John the Baptist said the SAME EXACT words about “the Word” in verse 15 that he said about “Jesus” in verse 30?
Doesn't that lead you guys to the OBVIOUS conclusion that the one called “the Word” is the very same one who is also called “Jesus”?
Mike….. so now your new doctrine is Jesus was not born of a women? So what of the berth of Jesus do we throw out to meet your and Pierre's new Doctrines? I realize you two believe Jesus was a morphed preexisting being. But where is that exactly stated in you rendition of scriptures?
Mike what Jesus said about John was to honor him as a human being and what John said about Jesus was to honor him as a human being. Who the Father used in his plan for mankind. The Father God used both of those men and both were of great importance in the plan of God.
Mike your just drawing straws brother.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 20 2013,05:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2013,09:02) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 17 2013,23:27) Mike. Quote ….who came from the Father……..
2. Who “came from the Father”? (John 16:28 will help you with this one.)A whole lot
John the Baptist, John 1:6;
His baptism, Mark 11:30;
everything a man receives, John 3:27.
The Christ,
The word of God, Isaiah 55:11
Good Kerwin.Now, which of your answers came from the Father and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?
Mike,The Word made flesh is Jesus Christ since the Word was made flesh in him.
The flesh is Jesus.
The Word made flesh comes from God.
The Word made flesh dwells among us
The Word made flesh has a glory that is like the only begotten of God.The Word has the greater claim to all these characteristics as it is the more fundamental than Jesus Christ since without the Word there is no Jesus Christ.
What does the phrase “New friends are hope made flesh” mean?
My source.
Kerwin……..Brother you have this right. The word of God came to dwell in Jesus and that word was God the Father. Jesus said clearly that the Father who is God was in him.” believe you not that the “Father” is “IN” me.We know that God and His word are one and the same thing, and through the eternal spirit God the Farther dwelt “IN” our Lord Jesus and spoke through him to us all.
Peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2013,03:15) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 19 2013,01:33) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 19 2013,20:30) Mike, I am not even sure where questions are. I like to converse and not just be quizzed.
Amen, Mike, sorry but, me too.
Really guys?You can't answer my other 8 questions with the simple, one-word answers they need? And now, you PRETEND like you don't even know what I'm talking about?
Oh, brother!
2B and Kerwin,
WHY do you suppose John the Baptist said the SAME EXACT words about “the Word” in verse 15 that he said about “Jesus” in verse 30?
Doesn't that lead you guys to the OBVIOUS conclusion that the one called “the Word” is the very same one who is also called “Jesus”?
Mike,The Word made flesh is Jesus Christ. He is not just the Word or just the flesh.
In the KJV John's words of verse 15 speaks of “he” while verse 30 speaks of “a man”.
The man is Jesus, who has a higher rank because he is First. That rank is the Christ.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 19 2013,12:53) Mike, The Word made flesh is Jesus Christ since the Word was made flesh in him.
Kerwin,Let's examine your statement:
The Word made flesh is Jesus Christ………
You are correct that the Word is Jesus Christ. You are incorrect in your random combination of Greek nouns and verbs, linking them together hap-hazardly to make it seem like “The Word Made Flesh” is the title of a particular entity, or person.
Let me use your own example to demonstrate:
“New friends are hope made flesh.” We can actually call our Lord Jesus Christ “Hope Made Flesh” – as a title. We can do this because Christ actually was the flesh manifestation of our hopes in God. And we can even say, Hope Made Flesh dwelled on earth with the glory of the only begotten from the Father.
But we CAN'T logically say, Hope Made Flesh AND dwelled on earth with the glory of the only begotten of the Father. Can you understand this, Kerwin?
If the Greek words are “hope”, “ginomai”, and “flesh”, and we know that “ginomai” can be translated as “made”, “was made”, or “became”, then we must use the context of the rest of the sentence to make our choice of which way to translate “ginomai”.
Given the context of “AND dwelled on earth”, it is impossible to use “hope”, “ginomai”, and “flesh” as a title of a particular entity. For example, “God Most High” is a three word title of our Creator. We can say, “God Most High dwelled within the temple of Jerusalem.”
But we CANNOT say, “God Most High AND dwelled within the temple of Jerusalem.”
So it should be easy for you to see how badly you're butchering John's words, Kerwin. You cannot use “word”, “ginomai”, and “flesh” as a linked-together title for a particular entity BECAUSE OF the word “kai (and)” that follows the word “sarx (flesh)”.
And since that word “kai” IS there, following the word “sarx”, we must us a definition of “became”, or “was made” for the word “ginomai”.
Are you with me so far, Kerwin?
The rest of your statement was: …….since the Word was made flesh in him.
I don't know how many times I can say it, Kerwin, but you CAN'T just go ADDING the word “IN” into that scripture so that John's words align with what you WANT John to be teaching.
Kerwin, if you cannot come to a rational and sensible understanding of the scriptures – AS THEY WERE ACTUALLY WRITTEN – then you need to pray for understanding of those words – AS THEY WERE ACTUALLY WRITTEN. You will NEVER come to the truth of scriptures by ADDING your own words, thereby completely CHANGING the teaching – just so the teaching aligns with what you WANT it to teach.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 19 2013,15:30) The Father God used both of those men and both were of great importance in the plan of God.
Gene,As usual, you chose to rant instead of actually answering my question.
Here's another question for you:
Which of those men was MORE important than the other one for God's plan?
Mike ……… Neither were more important then the other , God is no respecter of persons . Need scripture ? I can get it for you, but would that change your mind I highly doubt it. Rather God used a man named Jesus, Gene, Mike , or whatever, it would have made absolutely not one ounce of difference. why?, because it was God himself doing the works, need proof?, “the SON OF MAN, can do “NOTHING” of HIMSELF, it is the “FATHER” that is in him that “DOES THE WORKS”. .
Mike I have told you over and over here you need to start believing what Jesus and God the Father have said and quite continually Twisting scripture to meet you false Trinitarians and Preexistences views. It only proves the point, “greater is he that is in us then he that is in the world.”.
Peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 19 2013,16:20) In the KJV John's words of verse 15 speaks of “he” while verse 30 speaks of “a man”.
And? ? ?Do you seriously think that John said those same exact words about TWO DIFFERENT entities?
You are scraping the bottom of the barrel with your “he” versus “a man” argument. It is for this reason I “quiz” you guys on your understanding. Theoretically, one who has an inaccurate or non-sensible understanding will, upon being quizzed about that understanding, realize how inaccurate and non-sensible that understanding really is. This is my hope. It is so far backfiring on me, though, because there are the 3 of you backing up each other's nonsense.
For example, you insist upon ADDING the word “IN” into John 1:14, when that word is no where to be found in any Greek ms. Theoretically, when someone like me “quizzes” someone like you about this errant addition to God's written word, the “someone like you” should become embarrassed by your blatant ALTERATION to God's word, and repent. But instead of that happening, you are holding fast to your ALTERATION of God's word. And instead of the others seeing this alteration for what it is, and correcting you about it, they COMMEND you for your stubborn adherence to this alteration, saying things like, “Good post, Kerwin”, and “You have it right, brother”.
I can't rightly say WHY these “quizzes” are backfiring on me. I can only venture a guess that your desire to form the scriptures around your own pre-conceived notions outweigh your humility in letting God teach you. It seems you three are bound and determined to teach God, instead of the other way around.
At any rate, I am baffled by this experience.
Kerwin, who exactly do you think “the Word” was? Do you believe the Word was God Almighty Himself?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2013,11:39) Kerwin, if you cannot come to a rational and sensible understanding of the scriptures – AS THEY WERE ACTUALLY WRITTEN – then you need to pray for understanding of those words – AS THEY WERE ACTUALLY WRITTEN. You will NEVER come to the truth of scriptures by ADDING your own words, thereby completely CHANGING the teaching – just so the teaching aligns with what you WANT it to teach.
Mike, is that like how the OT tells us that there was only one God and that only one God created the entire universe with his own (moving) spirit and His own (spoken) word, and that, obviously, the spirit and the word was God's own spirit and God's own word, the spirit and the word being part of the entirety of the one God, just as your word and your spirit is a part of the entirety of you, then…… how do you change that entire understanding to mean that the word that is a part of God in John 1:1 can, instead, mean “another god”, or another godlike created creature, when the scriptures say:Deuteronony 4
[35] To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him. ”
[39] Know therefore this day, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.
Deuteronomy 32
[39] “`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me.
2 Samuel 7
[22] Therefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, and there is no God besides thee.
2 Samuel 22
[32] “For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?
1 Kings 8
[60] That all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other.
2 Kings 19
[15]”O LORD the God of Israel, who art enthroned above the cherubim, thou art the God, thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
Nehemiah 9
[6] And Ezra said: “Thou art the LORD, thou alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and thou preservest all of them; and the host of heaven worships thee.
Psalm 18
[31] For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?
Isaiah 37
[20] So now, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou alone art the LORD.”Isaiah 43
[10] “You are my witnesses,” says the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am He.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.
[11] I, I am the LORD,
and besides me there is no savior.Isaiah 44
[6] Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel
and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.
[7] Who is like me? Let him proclaim it,
let him declare and set it forth before me.
Who has announced from of old the things to come?
Let them tell us what is yet to be.
[8] Fear not, nor be afraid;
have I not told you from of old and declared it?
And you are my witnesses!
Is there a God besides me?
There is no Rock; I know not any.”Isaiah 45
[5] I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I gird you, though you do not know me,
[6] that men may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
[7] I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe,
I am the LORD, who do all these things.
[8] “Shower, O heavens, from above,
and let the skies rain down righteousness;
let the earth open, that salvation may sprout forth,
and let it cause righteousness to spring up also;
I the LORD have created it.
[9] “Woe to him who strives with his Maker,
an earthen vessel with the potter!
Does the clay say to him who fashions it, `What are you making'?
or `Your work has no handles'?
[10] Woe to him who says to a father, `What are you begetting?'
or to a woman, `With what are you in travail?'”
[11] Thus says the LORD,
the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
“Will you question me about my children,
or command me concerning the work of my hands?
[12] I made the earth,
and created man upon it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.[14]`God is with you only, and there is no other,
no god besides him.'”[18] For thus says the LORD,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it a chaos,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
“I am the LORD, and there is no other.
[19] I did not speak in secret,
in a land of darkness;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
`Seek me in chaos.'
I the LORD speak the truth,
I declare what is right.
[20] “Assemble yourselves and come,
draw near together,
you survivors of the nations!
They have no knowledge
who carry about their wooden idols,
and keep on praying to a god
that cannot save.
[21] Declare and present your case;
let them take counsel together!
Who told this long ago?
Who declared it of old?
Was it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other god besides me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none besides me.
[22] “Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.Genesis 1
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
[2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.[1] In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
—————-
To me, we are all on a journey and my understanding may not be the same as your understanding. I listen and I seek and I pray, and when something is shown to me, I wait on God to maybe one day show me some more.
Me and Gene and Kerwin and Ed J and others understand each other even if we may not quite understand the totality of what the others understand, as we are all at different stages as well.
And just because your understanding may be a bit different than mine and ours, I see you as absolutely no different than myself. There is no 'better' and no 'worse' to me.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2013,10:15) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 19 2013,01:33) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 19 2013,20:30) Mike, I am not even sure where questions are. I like to converse and not just be quizzed.
Amen, Mike, sorry but, me too.
Really guys?You can't answer my other 8 questions with the simple, one-word answers they need? And now, you PRETEND like you don't even know what I'm talking about?
Oh, brother!
2B and Kerwin,
WHY do you suppose John the Baptist said the SAME EXACT words about “the Word” in verse 15 that he said about “Jesus” in verse 30?
Doesn't that lead you guys to the OBVIOUS conclusion that the one called “the Word” is the very same one who is also called “Jesus”?
Mike, I have to hunt out your questions to even begin to answer them, and I have been on other topics.I have never liked answering questions.
This is to do with the spirit I believe.
I read something about that once in some early writings.
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